| Author | Topic |
RENEE
USA
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 Posted - Monday, October 4, 2004 - 5:31 PM 
with the name of allah
alsalam alkum
i must say; i have leaved in/with all points of view mention here. i'm a decendent of those men who stoled this country, the usa from the native people. most of my life i believed that white people were superior to other races. i also, believed: the chritain view, that through jesus comes the only salvation to mankind. i believed he was g-d, the son of g-d, and the holy spirit, the trinty concept of g-d. but i also believed in the american view of, all men where created equal, but different, and due to the race, should live seperate. my mother's generation made sure that their daughter's grow up with free choice. you know, women liberation. and it was my mom who gave me insight to a different path. and i was given the freedom to explore it. i married out side my race and religion. funny thing is, i married an arab muslim. who came to this country at the age of 19 years old. he is palestian, but was raised in kuwait.he came to this country to get an education, however, that's not, what he eneded up with. he married me as a christain, and lived my way of life as an american. he told me he was a muslim but, that was all. never did he say, anything about islam. seven years, we were married and his parents moved to the states from kuwait. he came home one day, and told me that i had to become muslim, and he wanted me to dress like his sister's a mother. well, i said, no way! so, he told me he wanted a divorce. i said fine. about 3 day's later, he returned, and asked, if i changed my mind? ell of course i didn't. i had be making plans to move back home with my mom. he said i could leave,but, that i couldn't take our 2 children. well, he didn't leave the house with the chrildren either. anyways, he return, and said; that he really didn't want a divorce and wanted to work things out. i said fine under my conditions. we moved away from that area, which was 3 hours from his parent's house. we would visit them and things were fine. they moved to palestine 5 yrs. later. my children was raised for the most part, like i was. i allowed my children the choice of learning what their father beleived. and left it up to them, to chose which religion they wanted to follow. well, 5 yrs. ago. i reverted to islam. i was a person who stated: i would never be a muslim! how wrong, was i? it was a 9 years journey, before i found islam. i had no desire for that religion, because of the muslim's i knew. after reading the qur'an. i discovered, you can't jude islam, by muslim's. that is for the most part, and not of all. after, my reversion. i wanted to tell my children that i was no-longer a christain. and to my surprise, neither were they. now, today, my youngest son goes to an islamic school. this is his second year. he will be 15yrs. old tomorrow. at first, he didn't want to go to an islamic school. but now he don't want to go to a puplic school. he isn't strong in his islamic pratices yet, but he has begun to chose for himself islam. and that is and was my purpose to let him chose islam for himself. he spent 8yrs. of his life in puplic school, and most of his life with a christain and american view. now he is, a muslim and an american. so, any one who believes that it's the west that corrurpts, islam or a muslim. i can say 100 persent, that's not true! we all make our own choices, when all is said and done. my country (usa) doesn't prvent me from me following islam or being a muslim. it is my given right here, a right that my forefather's fought and died for. and mant inncent people were killed in that fight for the freedom of the usa. and the fight still carries on today. that is way, we are able to have this debate, cause you can't in alot of other countiers in the world. including, countries in the west and east. so, lets not put the west done, we it offer's you your livlyhood. cause the majority of muslim's in the west don't have to live in the west. there is a saying; don't bite the hand that feeds you.
may allah bless us, have mercy on us, please forgive me if i offended anyone. but, truth stands out against falsehood. |
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jxmedina
USA
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Posted - Monday, October 4, 2004 - 6:43 PM
Assalaamu Alaikum,
In my opinion, it is not about which way of schooling is rightand which is wrong; it is about which is best. Naure and nurture, genetics and environment work together to form the clid through different stages of development. Muslims in any counrty canbe corrupt if they choose to be, just like any person from any religionor non-religion can be corrupt if they so choose.
I am not sure to whom you refer, Renee, with your post. First, we live in the same country and i am happy you are no longer a racist. Also, welcome to Islam sister. We do have the freedom to practice any religion and non-religion we choose. I am not sure i understnad exactly what you want to say by "don't bite the hand that feeds you." This nation we live in is not the issue to me. My issue is the public education system. This is not an issue soley about the west versus Islam. I don't see where anyone "put the west down" but you can correct me if i am wrong. Many muslims, if not the slight majority, in the west are African American Muslims, whom your "righteous" forefathers enslaved for centuries. So why would you say "the majority of muslims in the west don't have to live in the west"?, unless you are only referring to Muslim immigrants. This country is a country of immigrants from the whitest to the darkest, from Chirstian to Msulim, etc. I am sure the indigenous population in our country thinks the same abotu all of us-none of us have to live here. But that is beside the education issue. No one and nothing can corrupt someone unless they allow it. Since i grew up in private and public school surrounded by many good and bad things, i turned out well and have done well. My edcuation is still in progress mashaAllah, and i am sure we all want better for our children. I will choose to give my children more opportunites in every way than I had. Even if i lived in Morocco with my husband, we would still need to decide how best to educate our childrne within that society, because just being ina muslim society does not release resposibility for helping to nurture and mold an upstanding, educated muslim child.
Also, getting rid of the american superiority complex would be beneficial in making your points more credible and less abrasive. And,YES, the truth does stand out against falsehood. |
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RENEE
USA
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Posted - Monday, October 4, 2004 - 11:15 PM
with the name of allah
alsalam alkum, sister jxmedina
i stated, that it was my forefathers who stoled this land from its native people. this statement says; alot to an american. it includes everything that this country is or ever will be.
the west isn't just america. but your point about my "rightious" forefathers, bringing black slaves to this country. shows the darkness in your heart. for i never said they were "rightious", nor do i now claim that they were. to steal another's land isn't "rightious". so i think you mis understood. and the fact is: a i'm american and i make no aplogies for that. i sound american because i am american. if i thought that i was still superior, i wouldn't be written this letter to you, cause i wouldn't be muslim, and i wouldn't have no need to be on this web site. i would be on the white superiority web site.futhermore, puplic education is the reflection of this nation. the puplic education doesn't offer religious education. it a secular education, which tolerance must be applied for all to get along. just like this nation. tolreance must be taught to its citzens, so, all people can live together. this is what i meant, by, don't bite the hand that feeds you. you see, my forfathers were not immigrantsand neither i'm i. let me explain american history to you. first, i am a occuppier of this land, reason being: it isn't the native land of my founding forefathers. second, these forefathers set out to conqure this land from it's people, and they did, by force, and not by peace. they almost "wiped out" the native people, until the indians surrendered.and had it not be for the civil war, and the yankees of the north defeated the southerners of the confedrates. slavary would still be here and not only that, immigrants wouldn't consist of the immigrants of today. thou, this country of america exsist today, and has for 500yrs. it wasn't established by its native people. so, none of us in this country are immigrants, we are occupiers. the indians, didn't invite us here, they have no say in the matter of who can or can not live here. the natives of this land live on pieces of land, know as; reservation's. their land is marked, with some type of fencing around it. so, i hope that, this gives you more insight to my "american superiority" since you seem not to be an american, thou you live here. since i'm sure it's by choice. unlike me, i have no other country than this one. from the beginning of this discussion, i was given my opinion, to all the other opinions in the discussion. but since you had a problem with me, i thought that i would give you a taste of your arragance. which i'm sure you don't see. futher more, i don't care if you like me or not, that's your opinion of me. cause their are others, who lke my points,and abrrasiviness. so, to each his own. i wish you all the best in your dilema. may allah bless us, and let not our hearts go astray after he has guided us. if i have offended any of the readers, please forgive me, for that ins't my intention. for truth stands out aginst falsehood. |
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quarthadast
SPAIN
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Posted - Tuesday, October 5, 2004 - 3:52 PM
Hi, Jameelah.
I'm very grateful for your kind reply and I must apologize for being so late in giving an answer but I've spent a whole week out of home.
It's been a pleasant surprise to know that you were a Spanish teacher. Right now in Spain the number of people interested in Arabic is in the rise.
Of course is up to us parents to try giving our children the best education we can get and this means not only mental and physical education but above all a spiritual identity (I hope I'm expressing it well enough in my self- learned English). I know that in a lay state as Spain claims to be, is difficult for parents to find at public schools an appropiate religious education. And this stands alike for christians and other confessions' practitioners. Who could have guessed something like this just 30 years ago in a country where more than 90 per cent of the people claimed to be not only Catholics but church attendants. For good and for bad, religious teaching is vanishing from public schools. How can you teach religion in a school when there are children of at least four different confessions? In cities like Barcelona you can find in a same classroom christians, muslims, jews and hindues children (I'm not naming Jehova's witnesses, mormons and so on). Everytime the population in most western countries is becoming a rich mix of races and religions. Obviously public schools are one of the most importants meeting points of people from every corner in the world. If we don't know each other there, where it can be then?
I understand how important is for you to be a good muslim yourself and your children and I know how demanding your religion is sometimes and how faithfully you follow the teachings of your Holly Qu'ran. I must confess that I myself am not so committed as I should be to the Bible. But why western education ans Islamic studies have to be mutually exclusive? I think that every one can provide a branch of knowledge valuable to build a good person and a good believer.
It's true that my son has the advantage of being christian (I personally don't like the label "catholic", nor anyone else for that matter) in a christian society. Yes, when you have to live in a foreign world you depend heavily in your personal convictions and the natives's good will to understand you.
You also say that children at school try to fit in sometimes pushing aside their religious duties. Yes, they do. As you say, that simply happens. And it happens more frequently now that schools are full of children from many different places in the world as I already said above. Because of this, it's of the utmost importance that we parents instil in them at home all those values that really matter and a strong faith that they can live in their interaction with others.
I keep thinking that setting them apart in such critical period of their lives is a mistake. Both educations should be complementary.
Before I close this letter I reiterate my gratitude to you for this valuable and unique conversation you're giving me at this forum.
Queda con Dios. |
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jxmedina
USA
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Posted - Tuesday, October 5, 2004 - 7:50 PM
"Bismillaah ar-Rahman ar-Raheem
Qul a'uudhu birabbil falaq
Min sharri ma khalaq
Wa min sharri ghaasiqin idhaa waqab
Wa min sharrin naffaathaati fil 'uqad
Wa min sharri haasidin idhaa hasad"
or
"In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Merciful.
Say: I seek refuge with the Lord of the Dawn From the mischief of created things; From the mischief of Darkness as it overspreads; From the mischief of those who practice secret arts; And from the mischief of the envious one as he practices envy."
Wa Alaikum Assalaam Renee,
You should never apologize for being American; you are what you are. How you are is another thing. Unfortunately, you chose to take offense to my post. That's fine. When the pilgrims first landed on Plymouth Rock stepping off the Mayflower, they were not occupiers, they were immigrants. Ellis Island is the most famous entry point for all historic immigrants in this nation. Every immigrants occupies space within the country to which they migrate. My statement about your forefathers shows the amnesia and selsctive memory in your history, not the darkness in my heart. But again, you have your opinion. You desribed yourself in your initial post as someone who once thought whites were better than other races. So, you surpassed the white superiority issue alhamduliAllah. My statement was concerning American superiority. When youstated don't bite the hand that feeds you, this means that the one doing the feeding is superior by being in an elevated and privileged postion to feed another, thus implying that th eone receiving food is inferior. And yes, public education is a refletion of our nation. Why would you say ,"this country of america exsist today, and has for 500yrs." when the UNited States of America became a sovereign nation in 1776. This is 228 years, and not 500 as you have stated. Youalso stated that indigenes live on reservations here. This is true, but they are NOT all marked off with fences as you erroneously stated. I live in California in the midst of a few reservations to the east and northwest of my city. The closest reservation is San Manuel and onlya sign lets you know you have entered "Indian territory." You also stated, "i hope that, this gives you more insight to my "american superiority" since you seem not to be an american, thou you live here. since i'm sure it's by choice. unlike me, i have no other country than this one." Sorry to disappoint you, Renee, but I am American born to AMERICAN parents who were also born and not naturalized. Having an opinion other than yours does not make me less American than you, alhtough that is how you seem to see it. Also, your history lesson is flawed, so I'll stick to other sources for history lessons. But thanks anyway. Lastly, you stated, "from the beginning of this discussion, i was given my opinion, to all the other opinions in the discussion. but since you had a problem with me, i thought that i would give you a taste of your arragance. which i'm sure you don't see." Thanks for giving your opinion to all posts in this thread. Sorry for you you felt i had a "problem" with you. Like you, i was giving my opinion on what you wrote in your post. That is the point of this, right? Sorry for you that you interpreted my post to be with arrogance as it was not my intention. Even if i was intending to be arrogant or not, is it very Muslim of you to set out to "give [me] a taste of [my] own arrogance" as you put it? You request that no one take offense to your post, but you did just that. I don't know you to dislike you, Renee. I have never met you or talked with you except this encounter we have had BRIEFLY online. So i think it is inappropriate for you to think what is in my heart, what i see and do not see, etc. I do not know you to from an opinion of you. I can only read what you wrote and form an opinion of what i have read. Pre-judging is not a virtue. Anyway, we have gone way off topic and whaty we are discusiing now hads nothing to do with the theme of this thread,as we are no longer discussing education options. Feel free to respond as you like; however, i won't go on an attack and counter attack rampage with you, as it's not really my style. I am here to take part in a postiive environment that fosters learning and is conducive to educated exchanges and debates, not personal ones. I sincerely wish you all the best with your husband and family and may Allah continue to guide and bless us all in the duniya and akhira. Fi Amani Allah (go with the safety of Allah)
Your sister in Islam,
Jameelah |
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jxmedina
USA
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Posted - Tuesday, October 5, 2004 - 8:20 PM
Peace and Blessings of God upon you quarthadast,
I hope you and your family are well. Don't worry, you express yourself in English very well. I agree with what youhave written because although i am not yet a parent, when i will be, it will be my and my husbnad's responsibility to instill the best of values and morals in our children. Yes, I went to the University of Barcelona,and i remember we had many differnet people from South America, Catalans, Spanish, American, African, Arabic, Indian and Pakistani, as well as Asian students. I don't know anything about the shcool systmein Spain below the unversity level. I also think it is extremely diifcult to teach one how to practice their religion in a public school setting. Youare also right, childrne have more exposure to diffrent cultures and religions in a public school setting, but there are also other avenues for this. Ojala my childrne will go to a good Islmaic school the first years of their life for a solid religious foundation in school and home. Then ojala we will send them to a good public school for the rest of the education before the university. This will allow them to experience different things on a daily basis and have more well-rounded exposure and knowledge, while still having a strong religious base at home. I also see yourpoint that the two can complement each other in another way. If my future childrne can only go to public school, then we would have to make sure they got to Islamic school in the mosque on weekends to get lessons. Many Muslims parents do this as well. THis would be my alternative choice. Our children will be able to play with the friends they have in our neighborhood God willing. They will also have opportunites to mingle with friends and have friendships with other childrne from the commnity center who are not Muslim, as well as my mother's side of the family who are all Christian (Pentecostal and Baptist). We frequently have gatherings and there are many ways to not isolate my future children God willing. I agree that to totally isolate them and only let them be around, learn from, and befriend Muslims would be a grave mistake. I remember wheni was younger i had a friend who had her first communion and i was able to go. I learned a lot in just one day. It opened my eyes to the difference, but most of all, it made me appreciate them. You said you don't like the term "catholic". Please explain to me why you and others would notlike this term. I have never had someone tell me this. I would greatly appreciate the insight. I also thank you for the conversations we have had. I enjoy them and I understand your view more now, when i look back at your first post. Cuidese mucho y mucha bendicion para usted y su familia. May Allah continue to bless you and your family, and us all.
Your sister in Faith,
Jameelah |
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RENEE
USA
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Posted - Tuesday, October 5, 2004 - 10:56 PM
WITH THE NAME OF ALLAH
ALSALAM ALKUM
AS I HAVE SAID; SISTER, "TO EACH HIS OWN"! PLEASE, KEEP READING: SURA ALFALAQ. ARE BEST GUIDENCE IS THE QUR'AN. AL HAMDULLAH, FOR IT IS ALLAH, WHO GUIDES, HIS SEVANTS TO THE STRIAGHT PATH.
IT WAS THE YEAR OF 1492, WHEN THE LAND OF AMERICA WAS DISCOVERED. IT WAS ALSO, THE YEAR THE MUSLIMS LOST THEIR CONTROL OF SPAIN, AND SPAIN BECAME A CHRISTAIN NATION AGAIN. also, we here in america celebrate this event, the celeabration is called: "COLUMBUS DAY"! october 12, is the day. however, columbus, intention, wasn't to discover a "new world". he was trying to sail to india, during his voage, he became lost, but he thought; he was in india. thats how the "indians" of america, recieved their name. however, the spanish, didn't settle here at that time.
2. now, when the europeans, hear of this new "world", they all set out to explore it. this was, way before the pilgrims. the history of america, according to the indians, wasn't as pleasant, as the mayflower pilgrims story, another, story we here in america celebrate. thanks giving day! every year in november.
the pilgrims came here with the intent, to convert its hethren people to christ. but, those indians who meet the pilgrims, didn't have a clue to what these people were up to.
3. 400 yrs. before columbus, the vikings, were the first to land in northren america, and they were savages. read: about them.
4. 1776 is the year, that, america declared its independs from britain. america was already a country, many europeans had already fought with each other for control of land.
battles between british soldiers and colonists had already taken place by may of 1775 when the second continental congress was formed.
inspired by colonist thomas paine, in his "common sense" pamplet. he explains why separation from england was necessary, it was thomas jefferson drafted the "declaratin of indepedence'. this document listed grievances that the colonist had against king george3rd. the declaration was approved by the second continel congress on july 4, 1776. which is another celebration in this country. and the fire works are beautiful.
the revolutionary war, was long and costly. the war ended in 1781 when the british surrendered. the first man to die in this war was, crispus attucks, a free african american.who fled to the north, seeking freedom from his slave master in the south.
it must be nice to live in denial.
may allah bless us, bestow his mercy, and forgiviness of are wrongs, reward for are good. salam.
i only wrote this letter to insure, the readers, who don't know about american history, wouldn't be miss guided about information. i don't wish to cause ant harm. truth stands out against falsehood. |
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jxmedina
USA
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Posted - Wednesday, October 6, 2004 - 7:14 PM
Wa alaikum assalaam wa rahmatu Allahi wa barakhatuhu,
Thanks for your input, Renee. You don't cause any harm sister. May Allah continue to guide us all and keep us on the sirataal mustaqeem.
Salaam
Jameelah |
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quarthadast
SPAIN
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Posted - Thursday, October 7, 2004 - 6:00 PM
Hi, Jameelah, my friend.
Again I have to express my gratitude for your kind words in your last post and I'm very glad that we can understand each other in peace and harmony.
I'll try to explain why I don't like the label "catholic" attached to the word Christian.
Probably you know that this word is of greek origin and means "universal". And that's what Catholic Church proclaim, its universality. That's a impressive goal I find very difficult to achieve.
But my troubles (spiritual troubles) with my church (I was baptized inside it) comes from church's dogmas.
Dogmas are "articles of faith" meaning that if you're catholic you MUST believe everyone of those dogmas.
The problem is that many of those dogmas are not supported by the Bible (or at least I'm not able to see where they are stated).
Among the most known catholic dogmas are those of Pope's infalibility (meaning that everything the Pope says MUST be true, he never fails because the Holy Ghost speaks through him), the worship of the Virgin Mary and many many saints, the confession to wash your sins and so on.
So I see the church just like a wall between me and God. Everything regarding my faith (my own faith) have to be sanctioned, filtered and "blessed" by one of the church ministers.
Well, I personally don't like this. I believe that Jesus' message was clear enough, that God's words are clear enough and they don't need anyone to explain them to me.
In writing this I'm assuming that you know something about Christian's rites given you were living in Spain for a while.
I like to think of myself as a good person trying to be a good christian (just a christian, no labels).
By the way, I know pretty well Barcelona, I go there quite often from seven years.
Once again my gratitude for your time and your words.
Un calido saludo desde mi pais. |
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