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loganc
CANADA
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 Posted - Saturday, September 5, 2009 - 12:40 AM 
I think you answered the question yourself:
"The thing is Quran does make it compulsory."
End of story. If we believe that the Qur'an is God's word then of course there is no need for debate. We don't need modern-Islam or liberal-Islam. We follow the Book of Allah and the Sunna of the Prophet (upon whom be blessings and peace).
ma'salaama |
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saba2
Moderator
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, September 5, 2009 - 5:19 AM
I am sorry I meant Quran does not make it compulsory, please read the references given they cover all aspects of Hadis, Sunna and most important the Quranic order of head covering.
"The thing is Quran does not make it compulsory for a woman to cover her head."We are following the Quran and Sunna when you say head covering is not compulsory. |
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saba2
Moderator
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, September 5, 2009 - 5:32 AM
"We don't need modern-Islam or liberal-Islam".
What do you mean by this? These scholars of this day and age have put in a lot of time and effort to their researches to come to a conclusion. These have not been plucked out of thin air, this is not modern Islam and it takes a lot of courage to contradict an age old tradition and give the truth. The extremists also share your opinion and maybe the world should enforce their version of Islam a sample of what we see in Afghanistan and for sometime in Swat. |
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hkhan
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Saturday, September 5, 2009 - 7:31 AM
perhaps there is a bit of hx associated as well coz in all cultures and religions head cover has remained a symbol of modesty.
may not necessarily always be the case of the upbringing saba2. as for me, my mum still pulls off my head scarf away as she was never brought up with this & thinks this piece of cloth is merely a baggage  that i adopted as a teenager initially with my own feeling and later inspired by some of my medical colleagues at the med.school and perhaps the way i understood the concept of 'pardah' or hijab at the time. however with further study i realized that there is no reason to look down upon the women who hv not covered heads;
at the end of the day one will be accountable for what s/he understood or believed that was true after one's sincere efforts to understand, be it about niqab/hijab, beard,working for banks or not, keeping a dog as a pet or not, settling down in saudia or uk or as a matter of fact, any other matter. |
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loganc
CANADA
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Posted - Saturday, September 5, 2009 - 9:53 AM
| My brothers and sisters, please look to the Arabic words in the Qur'an. The "scarf" used to cover the chest of a woman is literally and lingusitically a headscarf. A headscarf goes on a head, and Allah says for it to cover the chest as well in these ayat. May Allah bless us with knowledge of Arabic so we don't rely on translations and risk misunderstanding this diin and His command. |
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ibrahim
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, September 5, 2009 - 11:49 AM
Dear, we are not depending on the translation. In fact a little knowledge of Arabic is also not enough to understand Quran. It needs to be familiar with the Quranic style at first. Then it's needed to understand the sequence in which any verse is coming. Then one try to understand the word of God in its context. Then one need to check the other places of Quran. & last but not the least All sayings of the Prophet must be related to the verses of Quran as well as the sayings of the all prev. scholars.
We think that's the only & correcy way of understanding Quran. And pl note that if in this way of understanding anyone misunderstand any command, Allah will not blame him/her. |
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faysal99
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Saturday, September 5, 2009 - 4:52 PM
though Men has been asked to protect their gaze - but as per the directives- the women has Main and bigger role to play in fulfilling Hijab requirements and they have to realise this anyhow.
I have observed wearing "Abaya" can be very helpful for women; particularly while going to Public places,work or Shopping. If women are wearing Abaya, this will also indirectly assist men to safeguard their distracted visions.
It is common practice in GCC Gulf countries to wear Abaya and almost all women follow this. |
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saba2
Moderator
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, September 5, 2009 - 8:08 PM
And by wearing the abaya there is less sex crime? There is less inappropriate interaction between men and women? Everything goes on behind closed doors, crimes happen but they are not reported.
An appropriate interaction between the genders is a must to have a healthy productive society.Are we to believe that men are so morally weak and lack self control that if they see women dressed without an Abaya would lose self control? Or do men think of women in one way only? I don’t think so most men are decent in thought and action. As one scholar commented on Hijab Chader and the veil
“Nazira Zin al-Din stipulates that the morality of the self and the cleanness of the conscience are far better than the morality of the chador. No goodness is to be hoped from pretence, all goodness is in the essence of the self. Zin al-Din also argues that imposing the veil on women is the ultimate proof that men suspect their mothers, daughters, wives and sisters of being potential traitors to them. This means that men suspect 'the women closest and dearest to them.' How can society trust women with the most consequential job of bringing up children when it does not trust them with their faces and bodies? How can Muslim men meet rural and European women who are not veiled and treat them respectfully but not treat urban Muslim women in the same way? 7 She concludes this part of the book, al-Sufur Wa'l-hijab 8 by stating that it is not an Islamic duty on Muslim women to wear hijab. If Muslim legislators have decided that it is, their opinions are wrong. If hijab is based on women's lack of intellect or piety, can it be said that all men are more perfect in piety and intellect than all women? 9 The spirit of a nation and its civilization is a reflection of the spirit of the mother. How can any mother bring up distinguished children if she herself is deprived of her personal freedom? She concludes that in enforcing hijab, society becomes a prisoner of its customs and traditions rather than Islam.” |
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loganc
CANADA
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Posted - Saturday, September 5, 2009 - 11:58 PM
My brothers and sisters,
More crime or less, whatever claims/arguments/debates we want to make are secondary to what Allah commands.
"And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule (slaves), or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to Allah together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful" (An-Nur, 31)
Do we question Allah? He says for women to extend their headcoverings (khimars). |
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saba2
Moderator
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Sunday, September 6, 2009 - 11:40 AM
| Well Quran does not ask a woman to cover her head . The word |
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saba2
Moderator
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Sunday, September 6, 2009 - 11:42 AM
Well Quran does not ask a woman to cover her head.
"Khimar" is an Arabic word that means, cover, any cover, a curtain is a Khimar, a dress is a Khimar, a table cloth that covers the top of a table is a Khimar, a blanket can be used as a Khimar..etc. The word KHAMRA used for intoxicant in Arabic has the same root with Khimar, because both covers, the Khimar covers (a window, a body, a table . . . etc.) while KHAMRA covers the state of mind.
In 24:31 God is asking the women to use their cover (khimar)( being a dress, a coat, a shawl, a shirt, a blouse, a tie, a scarf . . . etc.) to cover their bosoms, not their heads or their hairs. If God so willed to order the women to cover their heads or their hair, God would have simply said (COVER YOUR HAIR). God is neither vague nor forgetful! GOD does not run out of words. God DID NOT order the women to cover their heads or their hair.
God does not wait for a Scholar to put the correct words for Him!
The Arabic word for CHEST, GAYB is in the verse (24:31), but the Arabic words for HEAD, (RAAS) or HAIR, (SHAAR) are NOT in the verse. The commandment in the verse is clear - COVER YOUR CHEST OR BOSOMS.
For example that older Muslim women who are "past the prospect of marriage" are not required to wear "the outer garment". Surah 24: An-Nur, Aya 60 reads:
Such elderly women as are past the prospect of marriage,- there is no blame on them if they lay aside their (outer) garments, provided they make not a wanton display of their beauty: but it is best for them to be modest: and Allah is One Who sees and knows all things.
God here has allowed older women to discard their outer garments but he has also explained that he wishes them to continue to cover as this the way to be modest.
There has never been any doubt left in the Quran. He also lets us know what he wishes.
I agree if God wished or wanted women to cover their head or hair he would have said so, not let us conclude. |
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faysal99
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Sunday, September 6, 2009 - 8:16 PM
@Saba; the word Khimar can have many dictionary meanings but it is not correct to consider that all those meanings can be implied here. The use of Word Khimar has to be understood in the context and actual spirit of directives - Its highly objectionable to include shirts,blouse or any such stuff which is not fulfilling the purpose of covering the chest but actually more exposing it.
"And tell the believing women to restrain their eyes and to guard their private parts and to display of their ornaments only those [which are worn on limbs] which are normally revealed and to draw their coverings over their bosoms" (Javed Ghamidi Meezan)
"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms"(by Abdullah Yusuf Ali)
"And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like palms of hands or one eye or both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer dress like veil, gloves, head-cover, apron, etc.), and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms, etc.)" by Dr Mohsin Khan
Above three are different translations of hijab verses- I would humbly ask, what is the criteria for ordinary muslims to adopt ; one's scholar opinion and reject the other ?
If it is based on "Daleel/Argument", unfortunately, its is beyond the capacity of normal or ordinary men to reach at a result - then what is the workaround - Shouldn't in such cases the "Consensus" or "Opinion of Majority Islamic Scholars" shall be adopted universally by Muslim women ? |
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loganc
CANADA
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Posted - Sunday, September 6, 2009 - 10:27 PM
Saba you are free to believe as you wish. But let us consider a few things:
(1) When this verse was revealed, what happened? The women companions covered themselves, as recorded in ahadith.
(2) Abu Dawood narrates that `Aishah (may Allah be pleased with her) said: "Asmaa' the daughter of Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) came to see the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) wearing a thin dress; so Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) turned away from her and said: O Asmaa', once a woman reaches the age of menstruation, no part of her body should be seen but this-and he pointed to his face and hands.
(3) The word khumur (pl. of khimar) refers to a cloth which covers the head (including the ears), hair, neck and bosom. The esteemed mufaasir (Quranic interpreter) Al-Qurtubi explains: "Women in the past used to cover their heads with the khimar, throwing its ends over their backs. This left the neck and the upper part of the chest bare, in the manner of the Christians. Then Allah commanded them to cover those parts with the khimar."
(4) In a sound hadith we have the Prophet telling Sawda, his wife, “Cover yourself in front of him.” The word he used is Ihjabi which means “Cover Yourself.” It is an order, and in Islamic law an order means an obligation.
(5) 1400 of scholarly consensus on this issue.
Saba, we have evidence from the Qur'an (which you can debate but surely the scholars of tasfir would take precedence), from the Prophet (peace be upon him), from the companions (may Allah be pleased with them), and from the scholars of the last 1400 years.
I am not forcing you to believe in anything, Allah says there is no compulsion in religion. But, here is evidence and you may do with it as you wish.
All the best to you. |
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shehzads
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, September 7, 2009 - 7:38 AM
| Saba2, do you cover your head when you pray the Namaz? |
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saba2
Moderator
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, September 7, 2009 - 8:32 PM
“Hijab (head cover) for Muslim women is not mandated in the Qur’an. If it is, it is only the subjective interpretation of an ayah (verse) on the part of the reader. Hence, many Islamic scholars say that according to hadith, a woman should cover her whole body, except her face and hands. The majority of Muslims do not know in which hadith this is mentioned. A very limited number of Muslims know that this is in Sunan Abu Dawud. The English translation of Sunan Abu Dawud is in three volumes. Again, nobody ever mentions that it is in Volume Three. Actually, it is in Volume 3, Book XXVII, Chapter 1535, and Hadith number 4092, titled: "How Much Beauty Can A Woman Display?" For the benefit of the readers, the exact hadith is reproduced below:
(4092) 'Aisha said: Asthma', daughter of Abu Bakr, entered upon the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) wearing thin clothes. The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) turned his attention from her. He said: O Asthma', when a woman reaches the age of menstruation, it does not suit her that she displays her parts of the body except this and this, and he pointed to her face and hands. (Note 3523)
Abu Dawud said: This is a mursal tradition (i.e. the narrator who transmitted it from 'Aisha is missing) Khalid B. Duraik did not see 'Aisha.
[3523. When a woman reaches the age of puberty, she must observe purdah and have a thick veil which conceals her beauty. She may unveil her face and hands up to the wrists. In modern times, some scholars have prohibited unveiling the face out of precaution.]”
The rest of the article can be read at this link
http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_1_50/is_hijab_compulsory.htm
Is covering of head necessary for Muslim women ?
Question:
I read your views on Hijaab.I find them quite different, because you reject the necessity of head covering. Almost all the Muslim Ummah believes about the head covering for women. Even in christianity, Bible says that if a women does not cover her head, then shave her head. If some evidence could be pointed out, it could be helpful.
Response:
The critical verse is 24:31. It uses these words, instructing Muslim ladies to adopt as one of the measures while interacting with men "walyadribna bikhumurihinna ala juyubihinna", which means they should cover their chests with a piece of cloth (khimar). It is said that this chaadar was used by ladies of pre-Islamic Arabic society to cover their head but they didn't use to cover their chests with it. The popular understanding of this verse is that since women were already covering their heads, therefore they need not have to be instructed about that aspect of the Islamic requirement. We believe that although it is desirable for ladies to do it, the evidence is not enough to make it binding on them.
The other aspect of the verse relevant to head-covering is the requirement that women should cover themselves up except for what is obvious (ma zahara minha) in case they have embellished themselves. We believe, in view of this requirement, that if women have done make-up or have used jewellery, they must cover their heads too.
The Jews were known for their unnecessary strictness in legal matters. The stipulation of head-covering may have to do with it.
The prophet, alaihissalaam, required Muslim ladies to cover their heads while praying; the Qur'an required them to cover their heads when there was a possibility of them getting teased and tortured (33:59). Umar, May Allah be pleased with, it is said, required slave-girls not to cover their heads so as to distinguish them from free women. All these facts also point to the understanding that head-covering for women was not ordinarily binding. And Allah knows the best.
By Khalid Zaheer
http://www.khalidzaheer.com/qa/356
This is a part of an Editorial by Javed Ahmed Ghamidi
The Almighty requires of a Muslim woman to not display her make-up or other embellishments like jewellery before unknown men except what she has adorned her hands, feet and face with. The Qur’a#n has made it mandatory upon Muslim women to follow this directive. It is for this very reason that the tradition of wearing the head-scarf or head covering while going out of the house was established, and now has become a part of Islamic culture. Even if women have not embellished their heads, they have continued to be very vigilant in wearing some sort of head covering. This attitude has also sprung forth from the insinuations of the Qur’a#n: The Almighty has specified that the directive of covering the chest and neckline with a covering is not related to old women who have passed their marriageable age on the condition that their intention is not to show off their ornaments. The Qur’a#n says that they can take off this covering before men and that there is no harm in this; however, it has simultaneously stated that what is more desirable in the sight of the Almighty is that they should be careful in this matter too and not take their coverings off their chests. It is evident from this that regarding the head too it is desirable in the sight of the Almighty that even if women have not adorned it in any way, even then they should not take off their head coverings. Although covering the head is not mandatory yet when Muslim women live with a concern for religiosity and try to draw near God, they necessarily take this precaution, and never like to come before unknown men bare-headed.
I have quoted a few well respected scholars and out of the 3 , Mr. Khalid Zaheer and Mr. Ghamidi agree that it is not mandatory to cover the head but feel that a conclusion can be drawn that it is pleasing in the eyes of God to do so. Dr. Ibrahim differs and concludes that it not mandatory and no conclusion can be drawn. He also explains the Hadis as being mursal which is usually quoted in support of head covering.
I conclude ’ Zin al- Din stipulates that the morality of the self and the cleanness of the conscience are far better than the morality of the chador. No goodness is to be hoped from pretence; all goodness is in the essence of the self.’ |
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loganc
CANADA
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Posted - Monday, September 7, 2009 - 9:41 PM
You will find none of the companions (may Allah be pleased with them) held this opinion. None. They learned from and lived with our beloved Prophet (upon whom be blessings and peace).
We've both stated our opinions/proof so I think this is a good place to end our discussion.
May Allah guide us to the truth.
All the best to you Saba. |
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