| Author | Topic |
hkhan
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Tuesday, July 28, 2009 - 11:46 PM 
R is welcome to reply T; but we understand there is no restriction upon anyone participating. do u mind  |
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shehzads
PAKISTAN
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 Posted - Wednesday, July 29, 2009 - 3:15 PM
Tilawat it does not look like you are a woman, with all the support you have for wife beating !!  |
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tilawat
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, July 30, 2009 - 1:20 AM
@hkhan
@shehzads
I would welcome any body participating in the discussion but would request them not to be personal and reply to the point.
I am sorry to say that in this case none of you replied to the questions raised by me. May I take it that you had no answer for these and so started beating about the bush? |
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tilawat
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, July 30, 2009 - 1:34 AM
@shehzads
Does my sex matter at all in interpretting the Quran? Should I take it that all those who are arguing against beating of wife are women? The question is why should we be personal and subjective. |
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shah_625
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, July 30, 2009 - 8:02 AM
@ tilawat
No doubt that the word is "your women" not "your wives", but it is obvious that your women is being referred to as your wives. If you look at the previous and forthcoming verses, it's understood that Allah speaking on the issue of marriage.
And besides how many women can you approach for intercourse? Since in my knowledge slavery has been abolished, the only person left is your wife.
Now coming to what you said about man using women anyway they want, I'm afraid you have misinterpreted the verse. Cultivated land is piece of earth where seeds are sown so that new crops may be grown. So Allah is comparing wives with this cultivated land because they are the ones who give birth and spread our offspring.
Allah has very beautifully explained the status of wives in a very subtle manner. If you go deep down you'll see that just as a farmer considers his land to be his asset, very dear to him, takes care of it, protects it. Similarly a husband should consider his wife to be very dear to him take care of her protect her etc.
You said anyway they want. Well it is anyway they want but the right way. A farmer approaches his land in a very watchful manner, sows seed at the right time of the year, takes a lot of caution and etc. Same is with a husband.
Hopefully I made some sense to you. |
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tilawat
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, July 31, 2009 - 2:28 AM
@shah_625
No, Sir; your harangue does not make any sense to me. What a daring it is to put words, I repeat 'WORDS', in the mouth of God, presumptuously, to make it sensible for the people like me weak in comprehending it.
Interestingly, you say:
“And besides how many women can you approach for intercourse? Since in my knowledge slavery has been abolished, the only person left is your wife.”
Slavery; abolished, where? It is news to me. Has a new prophet come to abolish it? There is nothing in authentic Islamic literature to prove your assumption. Excuse me, your knowledge is faulty in this respect also.
Excuse me; you too have become personal hereby. You take the woman only as a sex object. What if I have no wife even for intercourse or my wife is or has become a barren land (menu paused)? As to my prowess to cultivate, I think, with the help of modern machinery I can till unlimited land. |
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shah_625
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, July 31, 2009 - 7:54 AM
Hahaahhaaa.......
You make me laugh with your self contradiction. One one hand you seem to take everything as personal and on the other you say a very offensive and personal statement " I doubt if the woman has any brain."
You keep on saying that " how dare you put your words in mouth of God", I think it's you who's doing this, I don't know from where have you concluded that women can be used any way men like and that they have no brain.
And I wonder what you mean by saying " I had said that my mother is a part of my self and a unique being, not comparable to anything."
I don't take women as sex object ( Isn't this personal  ). From where have you deduced this?
"Slavery abolished! It is a news to me"
Where you from pre islamic arab?
You think slavery is given sanction is Islam? Astaghfirullah......
Will you be so kind enough and explain to all of us what is your understanding of the verse 223 of Surah Baqarah.
Edited by: shah_625 on Friday, July 31, 2009 1:43 PM |
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StudentAffairs
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Saturday, August 1, 2009 - 5:53 AM
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raushan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Saturday, August 1, 2009 - 10:48 AM
quote:
The verse says 'Nisaaoukum...' meaning your women, and not 'zawajokum', your wives. Pickthaal translates the verse 223/2 as under:
"Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will..."
yes ,pickthaal is also right ,if you take the translation of the complete sentence.
consider the below now:
your woman who gave birth to you,
your women who gave birtht to your child,
your women who are from your fathers
your women who are tilth for you,
etc.
one doesn't need to be Einstein to know what is the proper noun of the "women" addressed here.
quote:
Btw, if you limit your cultivation to your wives only what about the slave women which your right hand might possess.
The verses you have referred to, are the last revealed verses in the series of orders regarding physical relation with possessed-women. The earlier revelations in this connection came in Makkah. It was common practice in Arabia to maintain sexual relations with slave-women. The practice, just like prohibition, was restricted in phases, instead of its abolition in one go. First, in Makkan-era, the married persons were directed to snap sexual relations with them.
“Who guard their modesty except with those joined to them in the marriage bond or the (captive) women in their possession. They are free from blame”. (23:5-6 and 70:29-30)
Mark the word “OR” in the above verse. ‘Wives or possessed-women’, (not ‘the wives and possessed women’) were the initial restrictions. Then a few years later, in Madinah, the final verdict came; “If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may marry (instead of resorting to free sex with) believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess. Moreover, Allah has full knowledge about your faith. You are one from another. Marry them with the leave of their owners and give them their Meh’rs according to what is reasonable... This (permission of marriage with captive-women) is for those among you who fear sin but it is better for you that you practice self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving. Most Merciful” (4:25)
If Islam permitted sex with captive women, there was no need for the above elaboration.
The sequence of orders of the holy Qur’an is a very clear cut. Those who have misunderstood it, have erred, however great they were.
In no verse, Qur’an has approved of slavery. Please note that the phrase, ‘whom your right hands possess’, has been used on all such occasions instead of being kept in jails, be distributed among the victorious believing men where they can observe the living examples of Islam in practice. No charter of rights for war captives can compare the code, Islam implemented on the possessors of such captives. They were directed to clothe and feed the captives as they themselves wore and ate. When the practice of slavery was prevalent throughout the world, it was not wise to stop believers to purchase the slaves. Instead, it was a boon for the slaves if the believers purchased them from those who treated them worse than animals. Muslims were given great incentives to free the slaves but it was not made obligatory for them that they should necessary free them after spending enormous sums. Qur’an used the phrase, ‘whom your right hands possess’, instead of ‘your slaves’, Qur’an further proclaimed.
“O mankind, we created you from a single male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, so that you may recognise each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is he who is the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)”. (49:13)
[SAT] |
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tilawat
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Sunday, August 2, 2009 - 3:37 AM
What do you all feminists (Nadaan dost of Islam) say about this:
"Sunnan Abu-Dawud
Book 38, Number 4348:
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:
A blind man had a slave-mother (A slave-woman bearing children but not treated as a wife?) who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.
He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.
He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.
Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood." |
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raushan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Sunday, August 2, 2009 - 6:57 AM
plz comment on the below :
1. His story with the Jewish neighbor who used to THROW GARBAGE at his doorsteps:
The Prophet had this Jewish neighbor. Everyday the neighbor would throw his garbage at the Prophet’s door! Then, one day, the garbage stopped appearing.
The Prophet wondered why and asked people about what had happened to his neighbor. He was told that the neighbor was sick, in bed.
So, the Prophet went and visited his Jewish neighbor to make sure he’s OK and to wish him well. So touched was the Jewish neighbor that he later converted to Islam.
2. His story with the people of Ta’if who’s children STONEDhim:
One day the Prophet visited the village of Ta’if near Mecca. He was hoping to find support amongst the people of that area after he was shunned by many of his own tribe in Mecca. Instead of support, he was faced by a mob of children, sent by their parents to throw stones at him. He was hit by the hail of stones. He was bleeding, and was barely able to escape into an orchard. He could have asked for God’s wrath to be brought down upon the village, but instead he prayed that one day these people will see the light.
3. His story with his tribe after he conquered Mecca:
When the Prophet’s army finally conquered his hometown Mecca, many of the leaders of his tribe were filled with fear. They feared the conquerer’s retribution. Most of them NEVER BELIEVED in him. TheyTORTURED and KILLED many of his followers and CONSPIRED TO KILL HIMin the early days of his prophethood.
What did the Prophet do? He told them: “Go. You are free!” |
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tilawat
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Sunday, August 2, 2009 - 10:24 AM
@raushan
My point in submitting the Hadis from 'Suhah Sittah' (The six authentic ahadis) was only to rebut your point that women slaves were not allowed to be used for sex in Islam and in no way to bring into discussion the conduct of the Prophet (PBUH) who was no doubt ‘Rehmatulaalimin’.
As I know one could not marry his own slave (perhaps because she no longer remained a slave on becoming a wife) but as you quoted Quran, one could “Marry them with the leave of their owners and give them their Meh’rs according to what is reasonable.” In this way the owner did not lose a slave after her becoming a wife of somebody else.
As regards blasphemy, the main topic of the Hadees, I wonder how can one reconcile the image of the prophet presented in the history and the Quran with the one presented in the said Hadees. Technically the Quran should prevail, but no one dares to say this as the compilation of Sunnan Abudawud, which belongs to Suha Sitta, (the six authentic compilations of Ahadees?) can also be described as the Quran ‘Gher matlu’ (Non-reciteable in prayer?). In fact they have enacted a law of blasphemy based most probably on the above hadees which stipulates the punishment of death for blasphemy when the Hadees actually can be interpreted to give any body (even a blind one) to act as a judge, jury and executioner, all in one, at the same time. And this is what is actually being practiced in the Pakland. Peoples some times get their personal enmities avenged by a false accusation of blasphemy against their enemies, which being a subjective and undefined concept can lend to any interpretation. In any case, there is no scope either in Quran or Hadees for taking out processions even the peaceful ones not to speak of the ones causing indiscriminate destruction as is being done in Gojra these days. This is a purely new phenomenon caused by globalisation, which defies comprehension. We can only pray,” May God save Islam, the religion of peace, from the Mullah whose Deen is nothing but ’Deen-e-Fassaad". |
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raushan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Sunday, August 2, 2009 - 12:20 PM
quote:
@raushan
My point in submitting the Hadis from 'Suhah Sittah' (The six authentic ahadis) was only to rebut your point that women slaves were not allowed to be used for sex in Islam and in no way to bring into discussion...
I m sorry ,i didnt get this point from your previous post.
This narration may be an earlier one ,I mean before the revelation of the final commands abt slaves.
quote:
the conduct of the Prophet (PBUH) who was no doubt ‘Rehmatulaalimin’.
sure,peace be upon him
quote:
As I know one could not marry his own slave (perhaps because she no longer remained a slave on becoming a wife) but as you quoted Quran, one could “Marry them with the leave of their owners and give them their Meh’rs according to what is reasonable.” In this way the owner did not lose a slave after her becoming a wife of somebody else.
Exactly,this is the best of all your thoughts.
You ve explained the wisdom of this commands in plain words ,what this ayah aiming at.
In brief,in any case you mentioned,one need to make the slaves free .and this is the utmost aim(gradually not suddenly) of Islam. to abort slavery.
quote:
As regards blasphemy, the main topic of the Hadees, I wonder how can one reconcile the image of the prophet presented in the history and the Quran with the one presented in the said Hadees.
yes we should seriously think over it,but the solution is not that to discards these valuable records of prophet at all.we have strong system to check and cross check them established by scholars.
quote:
In fact they have enacted a law of blasphemy based most probably on the above hadees
One one side there are tonns of evidence from quran and hadees itself to leave people to enjoy the freewill, some people selects a few out of context commands,there is no cure for those sick minds.
quote:
which stipulates the punishment of death for blasphemy when the Hadees actually can be interpreted to give any body (even a blind one) to act as a judge, jury and executioner, all in one, at the same time.
we dont need to generalise but should be objective always.
people use selective verses to fight with others as well.
quote:
And this is what is actually being practiced in the Pakland. Peoples some times get their personal enmities avenged by a false accusation of blasphemy against their enemies,
this is the worst use of religion anyways.
quote:
which being a subjective and undefined concept can lend to any interpretation. In any case, there is no scope either in Quran or Hadees for taking out processions even the peaceful ones not to speak of the ones causing indiscriminate destruction
you have wisdom bro,agree.
quote:
May God save Islam, the religion of peace, from the Mullah whose Deen is nothing but ’Deen-e-Fassaad".
it seems u r full of steam against mullahs,but these are the people whether right or wrong transfered the books in original form to us(not like ulemas of other religions interpolated the text,in such a way that no one can find the message in 'as it is'form.
I use your words for my prayers,
May God save Muslim as Islam can never be in danger,it is GOd's promise, the religion of peace, from not just Mullahs but anyone whose Deen is nothing but ’Deen-e-Fassaad....amen |
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raushan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Monday, August 3, 2009 - 8:32 AM
ایک یہ بھی ہے کہ علماء مقدس ہوگئے اور ہر اس بات پر جذبات بھڑکانے لگے جو ناگوار ہو۔ قرآن نے کہا: کسی قوم کی دشمنی تمہیں زیادتی پر آمادہ نہ کرے کہ یہی اجلی زندگی کا لازمہ ہے ۔ دمِ آخر جب سرکارﷺ نے قرآن وسنت کو رہنما رکھنے پر اصرار کیا تو تین چیزوں کی تاکید تھی۔ نماز ، محتاجوں اور بے کسوں کی دستگیری اور غیر مسلموں کی حفاظت ۔ ۔۔کیا یہی وہ حفاظت ہے جو ہم پر واجب تھی؟ امین الامت عبیدہ بن ا لجراح کو حلب سے لوٹنا پڑا تو جزیہ واپس کردیاکہ اب ہم تمہاری حفاظت نہیں کر سکتے ۔ فرطِ جذبات سے لوگ روئے اور اجنبی عربوں کے لیے دعائیں کیں ۔ گوجرہ میں غیر مسلموں کے قاتل ،قیامت کے دن رحمتِ کون ومکان ﷺکی موجودگی میں اللہ کو کیا جواب دیں گے ؟ ہمیں شرم آنی چاہیے ، کیا اب ہم ذات پات کے پجاری بھارتیوں سے موازنہ کر کے خود کو ذہنی سہارا دیں گے؟ جرم ہوا؟ کسی ایک نے کیا ہو گا اور اللہ کے رسولﷺ کا فرمان ہے کہ بارِ ثبوت الزام عائد کرنے والے کے سر ہے ۔ ہمارے فرش دھونے ، ہمارا کوڑا کرکٹ سمیٹنے اور ہماری بدروئیں صاف کرنے والی مودب اقلیت اور ہم اس پر غلیظ وغضب کے گھوڑے دوڑاتے ہیں؟شرمناک، شرمناک ۔ بے حسی ، بے حسی بلکہ بے حمّیتی۔ قرآن سے الفت اور قرآن کے احکام کی ایسی سنگین خلاف ورزی ؟ بوڑھا غیر مسلم بھکاری عمر ابن خطاب پر طنز کرنے کے لیے آزاد تھا"جزیہ جمع کرتا ہوں"تاریخ ِ انسانی کا عظیم ترین حکمران خاموش رہا۔ مجلسِ مشاورت بلائی۔ ایسوں پر ٹیکس کا خاتمہ کیا اور سوشل سیکورٹی کا دائرہ غیر مسلموں تک وسیع کر دیا۔وہ تھے محمدﷺ کے پیروکار ، ہم نہیں ، ہم فرقہ پرست علماء،چرب دست اور چرب زبان لیڈروں کے پجاری ہیں۔آدمی نہیں ، اصول اہم ہوتا ہے جنابِ والا اصول ۔
بتوں سے تجھ کو امیدیں ، خدا سے نومیدی
مجھے بتا تو سہی اور کافری کیا ہے
[ہارون الرشید]
http://search.jang.com.pk/details.asp?nid=366074
Edited by: raushan on Monday, August 03, 2009 8:34 AM |
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tilawat
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, August 4, 2009 - 2:30 AM
@raushan
Thank you dear for your kind and learned response.
You objected to my placing all blame on the Mullah. I may explain that I mean by ‘Mullah’ all those self-seekers who use religion for their personal ends.
Here I reproduce a letter I sent to Ghamidi Sahib in this regard with slight amendments:
“Dear Javed Ghamidi
AA. I laud your efforts in rationalizing Islam and liberating it from the
obscurantism and sectarianism of the Mullah. But excuse me you have so far been playing on
the very wicket of the Mullah bowling only with the wide balls without targeting
his wickets, i.e., his rituailization and sectarianization of Islam and the weapon of the loud
speaker. Our history shows that all those, Allama Mashraqi, Allama Iqbal
and even Quide Azam, to cite a few, who tried so in the past failed ultimately in loosening the grip of
the Mullah, who now with his terroristic outfit has become an existential
threat to Islam and the Muslim nation. In my humble view, as ever, Qurane
Hakim can provide us with the most potent weapon against the pseudo- Islamic
Mullah. It was the miracle of the the Quran-e-Hakim, which had liberated the Arabs from the clutches of, what it calls,
"isroghalaal'(oppressive religious ritualism) of the Mushrakeen Mullah, like Abu Jehl. I think Maoon is
the most important Sura of Quran that lays down the true spirit of 'Deen'
which is welfare of the human beings and
not the ritualistic and sectarianized cult of the Mullah.
Regards!
P.S.:I would have liked to post here my interpretation of Sura Maoon in Urdu but I don't know how to do that. Will any friend here help me? |
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raushan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Tuesday, August 4, 2009 - 7:05 AM
quote:
P.S.:I would have liked to post here my interpretation of Sura Maoon in Urdu but I don't know how to do that. Will any friend here help me?
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