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usmani790

PAKISTAN
Topic initiated on Friday, April 21, 2006  -  12:50 PM Topic is locked
Wrong Understanding of Sunnah in this Course


Assalam Alikum Brother Tariq Hasmi

Yours Quote:-

I would request brother Usmani to join the course and present his comments if he feels something mentioned in the material needs to be revised. If however he does not want then I would request to use the general discussion forum and not this one which is exclusive for the course participants

Reply :-I has been registered in this cource. Following are the some view of Sahabh, the four great scholar of Islam regarding the Hadith.Difination of Sunnah by Mufti Taqi Usmani.I understood from my research on Sunnah of prophet (pbuh) as you will see bellow and during our discussion in future that, if a hadith is authentic so it is called the Sunnah of our prophet (pbuh). While according the course which I have gone through, explaining that Sunnah is purely related to the practical aspects of life, ie, actions which are a part of our daily lives.

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The Sunnah has been defined by the scholars of the science of Hadîth as follows:

“A word spoken, or an act done, or a confirmation given by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).”
“Confirmation” in this definition is termed in Arabic as Taqreer. What is meant by this term is like somebody said something, or acted in a particular manner, and his saying or act came to the knowledge of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and he either confirmed it in express words or remained silent without given any indication of disapproval. Such silence, being an implied approval of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) is also included in the term Sunnah.

(From the book of Molana Taqi Usmani,Darul uloom Karachi)


How much the Ahadiths were important for Sahabah.Have a look please.

Anas reported that the Messenger of God said: "I have left among you two things; you will never go astray as long as you hold fast to them: the Book of God and my Sunnah." (Reported by Haakim.) The Companions of the Prophet, peace be upon him, used to hold the commandments given by the Prophet, peace be upon him, in a very high esteem, making no distinctions between them and those given by God. Once 'Abdullah ibn Mas'ood quoted this saying of the Prophet (hadith) while he was delivering a sermon: "May God curse the women who tattoo their bodies and those who pluck their eyebrows; those who separate their teeth to make them look more pretty and those who try to change the creation of God." A woman named Umm Yaqub from the tribe of Banu Asad came to know of these words. She approached Ibn Mas'ood and said: "O Abu 'Abd ar-Rahman! It was reported to me that you have cursed such and such women." He said: "Why should I not curse those whom the Prophet, peace be upon him, cursed and who are cursed in the Book of God as well." She said: "I have read whatever is contained between the two covers (i.e. the whole Qur'an)." Had you been a good reader, you would have discovered it. Did you not read the following verse?
"So take whatever the Messenger gives you and keep away from what he forbids you." (Surah Al-Hashr 59:7)

Let us see what the four great Imams (i.e. religious scholars) have said about the authority of the Sunnah. (As per my definition)

a) IMAM ABU HANIFAH was asked: "What do we do if we find a saying of yours opposing the Book of God?" He replied: "Leave my saying and stick to the Book of God." The questioner asked: "What if it contradicts a saying of the Prophet?" Abu Hanifah said: "Leave my saying in the face of the Prophet's saying." Again he was asked: "What if it goes against the saying of a Companion?" Again he said: "Leave my saying in the face of the Companion's saying." (Reported in Al-Qawl al-Mufeed by Shawkani.) Imam Abu Hanifah also declared: "My way (Arabic: madh-hab) is whatever hadith (saying of the Prophet) that is proved to be authentic." (Shami 1:50, Al-Fulani in Iqaz, p. 62.)

b) The saying of IMAM MALIK IBN ANAS is well known: "The saying of any person can be accepted or rejected, except for the Prophet of God, peace be upon him." (Reported by Ibn 'Abd al-Barr and Ibn Hazm. Also in Al-Yawaqeet wa Al-Jawahir 2:96.) He also said: "I am just a mortal; sometimes 1 am wrong, sometimes I am right - so check my opinions. Whatever agrees with the Book (i.e. the Qu'ran) and the Sunnah, accept it; whatever disagrees with them, reject it." (Reported by Al-Fulani in Iqaz, p. 72.)

c) Once IMAM SHAFI'I narrated a saying of the Prophet (hadith). Someone from the audience said: "Do you say so as well?" On hearing this, the Imam was enraged. His face turned pale and he said: "Woe to you! Which earth would carry me, which sky would shelter me if I narrate a saying of the Prophet, peace be upon him and do not hold the same view! Do you see a zunnar (belt worn by non-Muslims)on me? Or have you noticed me coming out of a church? How can I report something from the Prophet, peace be upon him, and not agree with ?!!"

d) IMAM AHMAD IBN HANBAL said: "Do not follow me or Malik or Shafi'i or Auza'i or Thawri, but take from where they took (i.e. from the Qu'ran and authentic Sunnah)." (Reported by Al-Fulani and Ibn al-Qayyim.) He also said: "He who is on the verge of destruction rejects a saving of the Messenger of God, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him." (Reported by Ibn al-Jauzi.)

Shuaib reports that Allaah's Messenger (saws) said, "When the people of
Paradise enter Paradise, Allaah, the Blessed and Most High, will say 'Do you
wish for anything extra that I may give you?' They will say 'Have You not
brightened our faces? Have You not entered us into Paradise and saved us from
the Fire?' So He will remove the screen and they will not have been given
anything more beloved to them as looking at their Lord, the Mighty and
Majestic." Reported by Muslim (Eng. trans. 1/114/no. 347) and others.

Hanbal said: I spoke to Abu 'Abdullaah, meaning Ahmad (ibn Hanbal) about
seeing Allaah (ar-Ru'yah). He said, "They are authentic ahaadeeth. We have
Faith (Eemaan) in them and affirm it. We have Faith in and affirm everything
reported from the Prophet (saws) with good chains of narration." Reported by
al-Laalikaa'ee in Sharh Usool I'tiqaad Ahl is-Sunnah (no.889).
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Please revised your definition of Sunnah and the whole course as well.This is not in line with Quran, Prophetic sayings, Sayings of Sabah, Great scholars of Islam of Present and Past.

And if think yours definition is correct and mine understanding is wrong.So please provide you evidences from Quran and Sunnah or you may give opinion of any known scholar in support of you definition of Sunnah.Your own explanation in this regards only will not do the job.Your urgent attenttion is requested.


Allah Hafiz.
Tariq Hashmi

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, April 29, 2006  -  11:07 AM 
Please revised your definition of Sunnah and the whole course as well.This is not in line with Quran, Prophetic sayings, Sayings of Sabah, Great scholars of Islam of Present and Past.

Thank you brother for joing the course and the insightful comments.
Let us first start with your claim that this is not in line with Quran.
Please explain how do you find the definition of the Qur'an given in this course againt the Qur'an.
Please take this issue first and once we have settled this we will of course proceed to the next untill we have resolbed all the issues.
I assure you that we will not reject the truth in any form and anywhere. We pray to the Almighty that He helps us reach to the truth and follow it.
Regards,
Tariq
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, May 04, 2006  -  12:49 PM 
Assalam Alikum Brother Tariq Hashmi

Brother I don’t need to explain From Quran, Saying of Prophet (pbuh) and others sources that this course is not in line with them. Neither I am so knowledgeable so I can do that. One thing I have made sure on the bases on what with little knowledge about the religion I have, and after I come to know about this course on Sunnah then I had carried out my further study on that. So Now its remain no doubt in my mind that what you presenting here is a wrong concept of Sunnah by taking out Ahadith from it and making Ahadith the third source of Religion.This is the basic flaw in this course.

Brother you have done a brave job by writing this course, now it is yours job to let the people explain why you are coming up with new ideas? Prophet (pbuh) has told us that he has left two things for us Quran and Sunnah.Your are adding Ahadith in the corpus of religion as a third sourse. Now you please explain with the help of Quran regarding the concept of Sunnah what you have presented in this course?

This course explain that for Uswa of Prophet (pbuh) and explanation of Holy Quran are not found in Sunnah but in the hadith Literature.You also says

• The body of words and sounds contained in the Holy Qur'a#n
• The body of practices constituting the Sunnah
And it is within these two that the entire Islam is preserved.

So in other words what you saying is without Hadith entire Islam is preserved and should I also say that according to you Prophet(pbuh) Uswa and Prophetic explanations of Quran are not essential to know in Islam.Here I am providing some explanation of Sunnah from the book of Mufti Taqi Usmani sahib which is I found is some what related to the topic. This explanation is based on Quranic Verses.
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Today the good things have been permitted to you. (5:5)

Here, the “good things” are not explained. The detailed list of the lawful “good things” has only been given by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) who has described the different kinds of food being not lawful for the Muslims and not falling in the category of “good things.” Had there been no such explanation given by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) everybody could interpret the “good things” according to his own personal desires, and the very purpose of the revelation, namely, to draw a clear distinction between good and bad, could have been disturbed. If everybody was free to determine what is good and what is bad, neither any revelation nor a messenger was called for. It was through both the Holy Book and the Messenger (pbuh) that the need was fulfilled.
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Quote from this course: -
This is perfectly in line with the wishes of God and his Prophet (sws). The
Holy Prophet (sws) did not make any arrangements for recording his sayings. He
only ensured that two things should be preserved and communicated:
• The body of words and sounds contained in the Holy Qur'a#n
• The body of practices constituting the Sunnah
And it is within these two that the entire Islam is preserved. Islam like most of
other religions consists of two components - beliefs and practices. The beliefs
have been succinctly stated in the Holy Qur'a#n while the practices are embodied
in the Sunnah.
According to the Muslim ideology, if we want to find out the Sunan, we should
look for them in the traditions and practices of Muslim Ummah and not in the
books of history.
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From the book of Mufti Taqi Usmani Sahib

To substantiate this proposition, a particular tradition of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) is often quoted, though out of context, in which he said to his companions:

You know more about your worldly affairs.

Before I quote this tradition in its full context, the very concept upon which this proposition is based needs examination.
In fact, this view is based on a serious misconception about the whole structure of the Islâmic order.
The misconception is that Islâm, like some other religions, is restricted only to some doctrines and some rituals. It has no concern with the day-to-day affairs of the human life. After observing the prescribed doctrines and rituals, everybody is free to run his life in whatever way he likes, not hindered in any manner by the divine imperatives. That is why the advocates of this view confine the Prophetic authority to some doctrines and rituals only.

But, the misconception, however fashionable it may seem to be, is a misconception. It is an established fact that Islâm, unlike some other religions which can coincide and co-exist with the secular concept of life, is not merely a set of doctrines and rituals. It is a complete way of life which deals with the political, economic and social problems as well as with theological issues. The Holy Qur’ân says,

O those who believe, respond to the call of Allâh and His Messenger when he calls you for what gives you life. (8:24)

It means that Allâh and His Messenger call people towards life. How is it imagined that the affairs of life are totally out of the jurisdiction of Allâh and His Messenger? Nobody who has studied the Holy Qur’ân can endorse that its teachings are limited to worship and rituals. There are specific injunctions in the Holy Qur’ân about sale, purchase loans, mortgage, partnership, penal laws, inheritance, matrimonial relations, political affairs, problems of war and peace and other aspects of international relations. If the Islâmic teachings were limited to the doctrinal and ritual matters, there is no reason why such injunctions are mentioned in the Holy Qur’ân.

Likewise the sunnah of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) deals with the economic, social, political and legal problems in such detail that voluminous books have been written to compile them. How can it be envisaged that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) entered this field in such detailed manner without having any authority or jurisdiction? The injunctions of the Holy Qur’ân and sunnah in this field are so absolute, imperative and of mandatory nature that they cannot be imagined to be personal advices lacking any legal force.

Say: Obey Allâh and the Messenger, but if they turn their backs, Allâh loves not the disbelievers. (3:32)

And obey Allâh and the Messenger so that you may be blessed. (3:132)

So fear Allâh and set things right between you, and obey Allâh and His Messenger if you are believers. (8:1)

O those who believe, obey Allâh and His Messenger and do not turn away from him, while you are listening. (8:20)

Say: Obey Allâh and obey the Messenger; then, if you turn away, upon him rests

what is laid on him, and upon you rests what is laid on you. If you obey him, you will be guided. (24:54)

So establish salaah and pay zakaah and obey Allâh and His Messenger. (58:13)

And whoever obeys Allâh and His Messenger, he has won a great success. (33:71)
And whoever obeys the Messenger, thereby obeys Allâh. (4:80)

And whoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger and transgresses His limits, He

shall admit him to Fire where he shall remain forever. (4:14)

And whAnd whoever makes a breach with Allâh and His Messenger, then Allâh is severe in punishment. (8:13)
oever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger has gone astray into manifest error. (33:36)
And if you obey him (the Prophet), you shall find the right path. (24:54)
And he (the Prophet (pbuh) does not speak out of his own desire. It is not but a revelation revealed (to him). (53:3-4)

We have already quoted a large number of verses from the Holy Qur’ân which enjoin the obedience of Allâh and the Messenger (pbuh) upon the believers. This “obedience” has nowhere been limited to some particular field. It is an all-embracing obedience which requires total submission from the believers, having no exception whatsoever.

It is true that in this field, which is termed in the Islâmic law as “mu’âmalât,” the Holy Qur’ân and sunnah have mostly given some broad principles and left most of the details open to be settled according to ever-changing needs, but in strict conformity with the principles laid down by them. Thus the field not occupied by the Qur’ân and sunnah is a wider field where the requirements of expediency can well play their role. But it does not mean that the Qur’ân and sunnah have no concern with this vital branch of human life which has always been the basic cause of unrest in the history of humanity, and in which the so-called “rational views” mostly conflicting with each other, have always fallen prey to satanic desires leading the world to disaster.

Anyhow, the fallacy of this narrow viewpoint about Islâm which excludes all the practical spheres of life from its pale, rather, to be more correct, makes them devoid of its guidance, cannot sustain before the overwhelming arguments which stand to rule it out totally.


Allah Hafiz
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, May 20, 2006  -  7:42 AM 
Assalam Alikum Brother Tariq Hashmi

Brother I am still waiting for your reply.Hoping to see you soon.

I pray to Allah to guide us towards the staight Path and help us to understand the truth. Ameen.
Tariq Hashmi

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, May 20, 2006  -  11:49 AM 
Asslaam oa laikum
I appreciate your efforts and going into detail comparison between the writing of a learned scholar and this course. This however does not solve the problem we are facing here. We do not as a principle discuss any person's views. You may read any material you find useful but put your question on the assertions made in our material.
I am sorry i still am unable to see how do you find our understanding of the Sunnah as a deviation. We have explained the reasons why we have been led to believe this. Now you need to first study and then analyze all of them in detail. If you then have any quesitons i would love to respond to them and clear any confusion. That is really a difficult job but what you are trying to do here is a job that requires time and efforts.
You just made a claim that this is a misconception and wrong understanding of the Sunnah but have evaded to show how. If it does not match this man or that scholar's understanding we need not worry. If i am able to see that it goes against the Qur'an and the Sunnah then the first thing i need to do is stop and ponder if i am not being led to deviation.

Brother I don’t need to explain From Quran, Saying of Prophet (pbuh) and others sources that this course is not in line with them. Neither I am so knowledgeable so I can do that. One thing I have made sure on the bases on what with little knowledge about the religion I have, and after I come to know about this course on Sunnah then I had carried out my further study on that. So Now its remain no doubt in my mind that what you presenting here is a wrong concept of Sunnah by taking out Ahadith from it and making Ahadith the third source of Religion.This is the basic flaw in this course.

I am sorry if you have read the send determinents of the Sunnah you would have known why do we believe this to be true that the Hadith is not the basic source of the religion. It is however an explanatory source. Without the hadith nothing falls short in my religion.
But to refute this claim you have to take all the seven points discussed there and help us understand why any or all of them are not applicable.
Please help us understand. Pronouncing judgment that this or that is wrong is not always best way of correcting others.
Regards,
Tariq
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, May 29, 2006  -  5:44 AM 
Assalam Alikum Brother Tariq Hasmi

Quote:-. We do not as a principle discuss any person's views.

Brother your hole course is based on your personnel views.You have not mentioned any verse from Quran in support of your understanding of Sunnah.Then this is unfair not to consider others personnel view.

Quote:- I am sorry i still am unable to see how do you find our understanding of the Sunnah as a deviation.


There is enough material from posted by me from Quran and Sunnah which clearly showing your deviation.Please refute them if you think they are wrong.

Quote:- You just made a claim that this is a misconception and wrong understanding of the Sunnah but have evaded to show how. If it does not match this man or that scholar's understanding we need not worry.


No brother it not true,you ask me to show firstly from Quran regarding your deviation.I have told in my reply that you have come up with new idea so you should explain this with the help of Quran.You can see in the same reply,I had mentioned Taqi Usmani sahib explanation where lots of verses from Quran can be seen easily.These verses are self explanatory and the explanation of Taqi Usmani Sahib clearly showing your deviation.If you think other vise ,you have to refute them.Actually you are evaded to show how your understanding of Sunnah is in line with Quran so far.You are keep failing in this,Its surprising me a lot.

Quote:- Without the hadith nothing falls short in my religion.


So its clear to me that you are so called (Munkareen-e-Hadees).Am I right?

Regards,

Sohail Usmani
JunaidHasan

GERMANY
Posted - Wednesday, May 31, 2006  -  7:59 PM 
Dear Brother, Sohail:


Assalamo’alaikum.

I’m a student at studying-islam.org and a 3rd person in this discussion. First, I’ve noticed that you have been very judgmental and negative in your approach. For example, this attitude: "So its clear to me that you are so called (Munkareen-e-Hadees)." Please forgive me if my perception is wrong.

Your first claim is that:

"Brother your hole course is based on your personnel views.You have not mentioned any verse from Quran in support of your understanding of Sunnah.Then this is unfair not to consider others personnel view."

Please see Module 1, Page 5. A Quranic verse (16:123) is quoted there right after the definition of Sunnah. This surely nullifies your claim above.

Your second claim is:

"There is enough material from posted by me from Quran and Sunnah which clearly showing your deviation.Please refute them if you think they are wrong."

Brother, it seems as if you’re badly confused between the terms: Sunnah and Hadith. For this distinction, please see the "Introduction to Hadith" course or consult some religious scholar. You’ve also had badly misunderstood the sayings of the four imams of Ihl-e-Sunnah. I take up one saying, from your writing, as an example:

"The saying of IMAM MALIK IBN ANAS is well known: 'The saying of any person can be accepted or rejected, except for the Prophet of God, peace be upon him.'"

For his book, Mauta, the first authentic compiled book of hadith, Imam Malik (RA) gathered ten thousand ahadith but did not include them all straightaway into his book. He filtered out many of the ahadith that he thought to be wrongly ascribed to the Prophet (SAW).

Precisely, none of the quotations you’ve put forward conclude that the definition of the Sunnah provided in the course is incorrect.

Your third claim is:

"No brother it not true,you ask me to show firstly from Quran regarding your deviation.I have told in my reply that you have come up with new idea so you should explain this with the help of Quran.You can see in the same reply,I had mentioned Taqi Usmani sahib explanation where lots of verses from Quran can be seen easily.These verses are self explanatory and the explanation of Taqi Usmani Sahib clearly showing your deviation.If you think other vise ,you have to refute them.Actually you are evaded to show how your understanding of Sunnah is in line with Quran so far.You are keep failing in this,Its surprising me a lot."

I’ve gone through the material that you posted. First, please make sure that other divine religions, that are, Judaism and Christianity, are not mare rituals. They have their practical life aspects as well like that of Islam. For example, you may see that Jews have beards because Prophet Abraham (AS) had it. They also circumcise their male children as per Prophet Abraham’s (AS) tradition. Similarly, Christian priests do not marry as a tradition of Prophet Jesus (AS). These are the deeds from the practical life of man. Therefore, it is incorrect to say that these religions do not have their practical aspects. Now coming to Islam, what I’ve understood from your writing is that you think that we should follow every deed of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW), doesn’t matter what, in our everyday lives. From the authentic books of ahadith, we come to know that the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) had more than four wives but this is not sunnah. You and I cannot have as many wives as the Prophet (SAW) had. Why? Because it is not the deed that the Prophet (SAW) ordered his companions to carry out. Similarly, he declared himself to be a Prophet of Allah. Hadith says so. But can you and I declare this? If we do, we wouldn’t be Muslims anymore. So again, this is Hadith but not Sunnah. Similarly, the Prophet (SAW) disliked onions but this is not sunnah (because it is not a religious obligation in its very nature) and hence not obligatory for us to follow. The Prophet (SAW) didn’t wear pyjama, didn’t eat rice, didn’t travel by train, didn’t use electricity… Does it mean that all these things are prohibited to us? Let me give you another very good example. Tahajjud was obligatory for the Prophet (SAW). We come to know this through Hadith. But is it obligatory for you and me in the same way? The answer is no.

Therefore, the point is that there needs to be a distinction between the Hadith and Sunnah so that we may have a correct understanding of Islam. Brother, please make sure that I'm not trying to say that if you keep away from onion out of love of the Prophet (SAW), it means that you are insane. What I'm trying to say is that it is not "necessary" for every Muslim to keep away from onion. Also, the onion is not haram for anyone only because the Prophet (SAW) disliked it.

Your fourth claim is:

"So its clear to me that you are so called (Munkareen-e-Hadees).Am I right?"

Keeping an eye on the whole scenario, what, I think, Mr. Hashmi means is that Sunnah does not depend on Hadith for its verification as it has come down to us through the practical consensus of the Ummah. On the other hand, Hadith does depend on Sunnah for its verification as it hasn’t come to us through consensus but individual-to-individual reporting. Muhammad Ibn Idris al-Shafi’i (RA) enlightens the very point in this way:

“Consensus is more reliable than the individual narrative.” (Al-Katib Al-Baghdadi, Al-Kifayah fi Ilm ir Rawayah, Vol. 1, P. 437)

Therefore, the Sunnah is already complete without the Hadith.

But, at the same time, I think one should completely avoid such sentences (as they seem to convey dual meaning) or they should be explained thoroughly: "Without the hadith nothing falls short in my religion."

Please do correct me, Brother, if I’m wrong somewhere. Let’s help each other in understanding the true spirit of Islam.

Thank you.

Yours Brother in Islam,

Junaid Hassan
Tariq Hashmi

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, May 31, 2006  -  8:39 PM 
assalaam o alaikum
Thank you brother Usmani for your response. I also owe thanks to brother Junaid for his contribution.
I will be willing to accept what is established as a result of research and understanding. Please help me understand your rebuttal of the basic principles of determining the Sunnah. If we are able to detect flaw in them then definitely we are missing something. Therefore, consider my following request which i am again putting before you:
sorry if you have read the send determinents of the Sunnah you would have known why do we believe this to be true that the Hadith is not the basic source of the religion.
Tariq Hashmi

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, May 31, 2006  -  8:45 PM 
assalaam o alaikum
What is your comment on this: http://www.studying-islam.org/forum/topic.aspx?topicid=1001&lang=&forumid=14
Also could you please explain your view that Sunnah (which according to the usage of the classical Arabic languge means established practice) also covers sayings, historical reports which are also one of the the main things discussed in the hadith.
To put it precisely do you find any usage of the word in the classical Arabic where it connotes a saying.
Regards,
Tariq
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, June 10, 2006  -  8:14 AM 
Dear Brother Junaid Hasan

Assalamo’alaikum.

Quote: -Please forgives me if my perception is wrong.

Reply: - He is a Munkareen-e-Hadees I am telling you again, he said so in his posts and the whole course telling this.
Quote: -Please see Module 1, Page 5. A Quranic verse (16:123) is quoted there right after the definition of Sunnah. This surely nullifies your claim above.

Reply: -Yes you are right. If am not wrong again this is the only verse quoted there in the course. What actually I mean that when this course says that ahadith are not included in Sunnah, so there is no quotation from Quran and Sunnah.

Quote: -Brother, it seems as if you’re badly confused between the terms: Sunnah and Hadith. For this distinction, please see the "Introduction to Hadith" course or consult some religious scholar. You’ve also had badly misunderstood the sayings of the four imams of Ihl-e-Sunnah. I take up one saying, from your writing, as an example:

Reply: -When I say hadith I mean sayings and actions of Prophet (pbuh) and this what the Sunnah is all about. So I am not confused. Taqi Usmani Sahib is the leading Islamic scholar of Pakistan and of the whole Islamic world today. I don’t care of the courses here; I have seen the course “Introduction of Hadith as well, this course is also misleading. Brother you are doing a big mistake here if you blindly following them.

Quote: -"The saying of IMAM MALIK IBN ANAS is well known: 'The saying of any person can be accepted or rejected, except for the Prophet of God, peace be upon him.'"

For his book, Mauta, the first authentic compiled book of hadith, Imam Malik (RA) gathered ten thousand ahadith but did not include them all straightaway into his book. He filtered out many of the ahadith that he thought to be wrongly ascribed to the Prophet (SAW).

Reply:-I don’t know what you want prove here, please explain.

Quote:-Precisely, none of the quotations you’ve put forward conclude that the definition of the Sunnah provided in the course is incorrect.

Reply:-Please see my previous post carefully. For your quick reference I have brought some points here.

1) The definition of Sunnah explained by Mufti Taqi Usmani Sahib, who is the world renowned Islamic Scholar of this era is differing from the definition of this course.
2) The event of Anas(RA) if you will read care fully again that for him the sayings of Prophet (pbuh) were the Sunnah of Prophet(pbuh).Which again goes the defination of Sunnah in this course and the understanding about the sayings of Prophet(Ahadith) in this course.

3) Imam Abu Hanifah also declared: "My way (Arabic: madh-hab) is whatever hadith (saying of the Prophet) that is proved to be authentic." (Shami 1:50, Al-Fulani in Iqaz, p. 62.) .This again goes agaisnt this course.

These I copy from my first post see what Imam Abu Hanifah saying about the hadith. While the brother Tariq Says (Hadith is not the basic source of the religion,It is however an explanatory source). If hadith is not the basic source then how can Imam Abu Hanifah saying it his madh-hab?)

4)Quote of Imam Malik from my frist Post(Whatever agrees with the Book (i.e. the Qu'ran) and the Sunnah, accept it; whatever disagrees with them, reject it." (Reported by Al-Fulani in Iqaz, p. 72.)
The word Sunnah clearly showing that he is referring to the Ahadith.

5)Quote of Imam Shafi (How can I report something from the Prophet, peace be upon him, and not agree with ?!!").They are not agreed with Ahadith that’s why it is not the main source for them.

6) I have put forward few questions, but Mr. Tariq Hashmi avoiding to answer them or did not attempt to clear things which I put forward regarding this course.

7) Please refer back to my post on May 04,2006 this course is designed to take away the essence to deen by taking out the Ahadith from the picture. Mr. Tariq Hashmi ask me in his first post to show him how the definition of Sunnah is against the Quran.In my above mention post I have showed him that so many things which are mentioned in Quran are only explained in details in Ahadith.Failing in complying those explanation in Ahadith actually failing to complying with Quran it self. But This course says in my words (With out Ahadith deen is complete, so many things wrongly said about Ahadith in this course and tried to create doubt in them.

Quote:-I’ve gone through the material that you posted. First, please make sure that other divine religions, that are, Judaism and Christianity, are not mare rituals. They have their practical life aspects as well like that of Islam. For example, you may see that Jews have beards because Prophet Abraham (AS) had it. They also circumcise their male children as per Prophet Abraham’s (AS) tradition. Similarly, Christian priests do not marry as a tradition of Prophet Jesus (AS). These are the deeds from the practical life of man. Therefore, it is incorrect to say that these religions do not have their practical aspects.

Reply: -Brother you wrongly understand what Mufti Taqi Usmani sahib said. Have a look on the followings.

Quote of Mufti Taqi Usmani

The misconception is that Islâm, like some other religions, is restricted only to some doctrines and some rituals. It has no concern with the day-to-day affairs of the human life. After observing the prescribed doctrines and rituals, everybody is free to run his life in whatever way he likes, not hindered in any manner by the divine imperatives.

1) They are free to dress the way they like.
2) They can eat and drink every thing they like,no concept of Haraam there
3) There is no concept of Hijab or Mehrum.
4) They don’t take care of their old parents; old houses are there for them.
5) Taking interest in money is ok for them.
6) Usage of bad language is also can be seen to level.

There are many more things which could be identified. There are also many good things in them and they are so many as well. But these good in them are not due to the religion, this is because the need them in their society. One more reason of good is that the good is already there in the heart of every human from Allah.Deen polish them and give the right direction.

Quote-From the authentic books of ahadith, we come to know that the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) had more than four wives but this is not sunnah. You and I cannot have as many wives as the Prophet (SAW) had. Why? Because it is not the deed that the Prophet (SAW) ordered his companions to carry out.

Reply: -Surely you are right and neither Mufti Taqi Usmani Sahib said that. You are taking every thing in wrong direction brother. One can not simply follow every hadith like that. For that Shariah is there to follow. Shariah is derived from Quran and Authentic Ahadith.Have a look on the following hadith.

Narrated Al-Harith ibn Qays al-Asadi: I embraced Islam while I had eight wives. So I mentioned it to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him). The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Select four of them. (Book #12, Hadith #2233)

Qoute: -Similarly, he declared himself to be a Prophet of Allah. Hadith says so. But can you and I declare this? If we do, we wouldn’t be Muslims anymore. So again, this is Hadith but not Sunnah.

Reply: -Where did you got it from????.This is also against this course. This course says (Sunnah does not includes any matter of faith, belief, religious concept (Module 3 Page 2).

Ahadith some times gave us informations.

Quote-Similarly, the Prophet (SAW) disliked onions but this is not Sunnah (because it is not a religious obligation in its very nature) and hence not obligatory for us to follow.

Reply: -How does know prophet disliked onions

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: Khalid said: AbuZiyad Khiyar ibn Salamah asked Aisha about onions. She replied: The last food which the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) ate was some which contained onions. (Book #27, Hadith #3820)

Qoute:-The Prophet (SAW) didn’t wear pyjama, didn’t eat rice, didn’t travel by train, didn’t use electricity… Does it mean that all these things are prohibited to us? Let me give you another very good example.

Reply: -I never said that, this yours assumptions only.

Quote: -Tahajjud was obligatory for the Prophet (SAW). We come to know this through Hadith. But is it obligatory for you and me in the same way? The answer is no.

Reply:-Is this answer you got from Sunnah as describe in this course? Or This answer we got from Shariah and Shariah is derived from Quran and Ahadith.

Qoute:-Therefore, the point is that there needs to be a distinction between the Hadith and Sunnah so that we may have a correct understanding of Islam.

Reply: -No one can understand before that (From this time to Sahabah time), only you and Studying-Islam.com discover it recently,I think this is the reason why Mr.Tariq keep failing to produce in Quranic verse to support his newly born idea. How wrongly you understood my previous post. So you are the right candidate for them. Please wake up brother.

Qoute:-"So its clear to me that you are so called (Munkareen-e-Hadees).Am I right?"

Keeping an eye on the whole scenario, what, I think, Mr. Hashmi means is that Sunnah does not depend on Hadith for its verification as it has come down to us through the practical consensus of the Ummah. On the other hand, Hadith does depend on Sunnah for its verification as it hasn’t come to us through consensus but individual-to-individual reporting. Muhammad Ibn Idris al-Shafi’i (RA) enlightens the very point in this way:

Reply: -Who are you or this web site to conclude that. This job already done cencries ago by great scholars. Actually you don’t have any knowledge of the Sunnah, that’s why you are confused. This web site’s scholars know every thing. They want to reshape the deen to make it acceptable for the western world. There might be some others intentions there as well.

Qoute:- Please do correct me, Brother, if I’m wrong somewhere. Let’s help each other in understanding the true spirit of Islam.

Reply: - Brother I had tried my best to do that. I will suggest you to consult other ulima as well, so you can have a clear picture of Sunnah of our Prophet (pbuh).

Sohail Usmani
ibrahim
Moderator

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, June 10, 2006  -  9:39 AM 
Salaam br Sohail Usmani

I Just want to ASK a Simple Question. Y r U Depending So MUCh on only ONE Person; Molana Taqi Usmani? Is he The greatest Scholar after Prophet Muhammad pbuh?
Br Plz Tell me that HAVE U SEEN All the Work of Previous Scholars About the Definition of Sunnah & Hadith? If NOT then Plz NOTE that:
we Agree that Some Scholars Take SUNNAH & Hadith as SAME
BUT
At the Same Time there r MANY Scholars WHO Differ between them. They Normally Describe
Sunnah as KHABER e MUTAWAATIR
&
Hadith as KHABER e WAHID

& All Scholars (of Hadith, Fiqh or Tafseer) Also Differ in the Position of these TWo Khabers

Khabaer e Mutawaatir Has been given the "YAQEENI" Status
whereas
Khaber e Wahid has been given the "ZANNI" status

Now What Do U say about this Ijmaa of Ummah
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, June 10, 2006  -  12:50 PM 
Assalam Alikym Brother Ibrahim

Quote:-I Just want to ASK a Simple Question. Y r U Depending So MUCh on only ONE Person; Molana Taqi Usmani? Is he The greatest Scholar after Prophet Muhammad pbuh?

Reply:-No he is not.Taqi Usmani Sahib is Great Scholar of Pakistan and the hole Islamic world today.The things in him is that like others great scholars he always use to quote Quran and Sunnah while he saying some thing.This is what missing here in the cource.You people have your own words to explain every thing.By the way in the general forum of CONCEPT OF SUNNAH,I had mentioned the work of Molana Maudoodi sahib.There no much different in Molana Maudoodi Sahib view and Taqi Usmani Sahib views regarding the definition of Sunnah and the overall concept of Sunnah.

Qoute:-Br Plz Tell me that HAVE U SEEN All the Work of Previous Scholars About the Definition of Sunnah & Hadith?

Reply:-Whom ever I had listen and read so far they are describing Sunnah as defined by Taqi Usmani Sahib.That include

1) Hakim ul Ummat Molana Ashraf Ali Thanvi
2) Molana Maudoodi Sahib
3) Dr.Inees Ahmed
4) Dr.Israr Ahmed
5) Dr.Zakir Naik
6) Yusuf Estes
7) Dr. Farhat Hasmi

This is the problem with you and brother Tariq Hashmi that both of you failing again and again to show some other schalors views on Sunnah.I have shown here what that great Imams Imam Abu Hanifh and ImamShafi saying that if a Hadith is authantic so this is their Madahb.What this course says that, without hadith Madahb is complete. Two entirely different things.

I would again request you to show some thing that with out Ahadith Madahb is complete, from Quran,Sunnah,Four Great scholars of Islam, schalors of Present or Past.I am tired to listen yours own words.

Allah Hafiz
ibrahim
Moderator

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, June 10, 2006  -  1:45 PM 
Brother If you Don't mind I want to mention that the LIST of 7 names that U've Provided NOT COVER EVEN a SINGLE CENTURY. All of these Scholars are from the 19th century. WHAT about the other 13 centuries. I'm telling U about them.

Well Imam Abu Hanifa USE to say that if a Hadith will contradict my understang of the Religion, I'll NOT ACCEPT it
&
Imam Shafi'ee have said in his famous book that Hadith have NO CONCERn w COMMON people, It's a game of 'Ulama & Every Scholar is Bound to Give the Reason for Rejecting any Hadith.

what do U say about them now?
&
U've NOT answered me about the Ijmaa of Ummah on the "Zanni" Status of Ahadith.

By Saying that our Religion is Complete on the basis of Qur'an & Sunnah we JUST want to INSIST on only ONE thing that ONLY & ONLY these TWO sourses Povide SURITY as they r based on Consensus & Continuty (generation-generation transmission). Whereas we Cannot take HADITH as Primary Source JUST bcoz it's a Case of Person-Person Transmission (Khaber e Wahid) & it can NEVER provide any kind of SURITY even if a Hadith is in "Sahih" Category & it is Present in BOTH bukhari & Muslim. This is NOT my OPINION. It is the Decision of All MUHADDISEEN (Scholar of Ahadith). Brother WHY NOT U TRY to UNDERSTAND our this SIMPLE Argument? U Know ur INSIST on Hadith is GIVING Islam/Sharee'ah a v v v WEAK Base?
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, June 14, 2006  -  5:46 AM 
Assalam Alikym Brother Ibrahim

Quote-Brother If you Don't mind I want to mention that the LIST of 7 names that U've Provided NOT COVER EVEN a SINGLE CENTURY. All of these Scholars are from the 19th century. WHAT about the other 13 centuries. I'm telling U about them.

Reply:-You means that these 7 scholars wrongly understand the Sunnah? and team of this web site are more qualifed than these 7 Scholars?.Few of them are really big names,you can not simply reject them like that.If I have not given any name of last 13 centuries,so its not means that their views on Sunnah are differ from these 7 scholars.Not to forget that I have mentioed the views of 4 great scholars any way beside the Quran and Sahabah views on Ahadith.

Quote:-Well Imam Abu Hanifa USE to say that if a Hadith will contradict my understang of the Religion, I'll NOT ACCEPT it

Reply: -This is not any way saying that Hadith is nothing to do with Sunnah.That was the time when some fabricated Ahadith were moving around Besra and Kofa.Imam Abu Hanifah (RA)is one of the greatest scholar of Islamic history and looking at that time when some fabricated Ahadith were moving around,so it is understandable what he said.But now ahadith are clear in black and white.

Quote-Imam Shafi'ee have said in his famous book that Hadith have NO CONCERn w COMMON people, It's a game of 'Ulama & Every Scholar is Bound to Give the Reason for Rejecting any Hadith.

Reply:-The above sayings of Imam Shafi’ee goes against the writer of the course.The great Imam saying that if a any hadith(Single hadith) have to be rejected so its only be done by a scholar secondly he is bound to give the reason.What the writer of this course saying about the Ahadith that this is person to person transmission and taking away all of them from the Sunnah. But now through the development of sciences of Ahadith, we knows the status of Ahadith clearly.

Quote:- U've NOT answered me about the Ijmaa of Ummah on the "Zanni" Status of Ahadith.

Reply:- Brother I want to show you some brief information regarding the Ahadith.Quotation from the book of Taqi Usamni Sahib.

Three Kinds of Ahâdîth

An individual tradition which narrates a “sunnah” of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) is termed in the relevant sciences as “hadîth” (pl. ahâdîth). The ahâdîth, with regard to the frequency of their sources, are divided into three major kinds:

(1) Mutawâtir: It is a hadîth narrated in each era, from the days of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) up to this day by such a large number of narrators that it is impossible to reasonably accept that all of them have colluded to tell a lie.
This kind is further classified into two sub-divisions:

(a) Mutawâtir in words: It is a hadîth whose words are narrated by such a large number as is required for a mutawâtir, in a manner that all the narrators are unanimous in reporting it with the same words without any substantial discrepancy.

(b) Mutawâtir in meaning: It is a mutawâtir hadîth which is not reported by the narrators in the same words. The words of the narrators are different. Sometimes even the reported events are not the same. But all the narrators are unanimous in reporting a basic concept which is common in all the reports. This common concept is also ranked as a mutawâtir concept.
For example, there is a saying of the Holy Prophet (pbuh),

Whoever intentionally attributes a lie against me, should prepare his seat in the Fire.
This is a mutawâtir hadîth of the first kind, because it has a minimum of seventy-four narrators. In other words, seventy-four companions of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) have reported this hadîth at different occasions, all with the same words.

The number of those who received this hadîth from these companions is many times greater, because each of the seventy-four companions has conveyed it to a number of his pupils. Thus, the total number of the narrators of this hadîth has been increasing in each successive generation, and has never been less than seventy-four. All these narrators, who are now hundreds in number, report it in the same words without even a minor change. This hadîth is, therefore, mutawâtir by words, because it cannot be imagined reasonably that such a large number of people have colluded to coin a fallacious sentence in order to attribute it to the Holy Prophet (pbuh).

On the other hand, it is also reported by such a large number of narrators that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) has enjoined us to perform two rak’ât in Fajr, four rak’ât in Zuhr, ‘Asr and ‘Isha, and three rak’ât in the Maghrib prayer, yet the narrations of all the reporters who reported the number of rak’ât are not in the same words. Their words are different. Even the events reported by them are different. But the common feature of all the reports is the same. This common feature, namely, the exact number of rak’ât, is said to be mutawâtir in meaning.

(2) The second kind of hadîth is Mashhoor. This term is defined by the scholars of hadîth as follows:
“A hadîth which is not mutawâtir, but its narrators are not less than three in any generation.” [Tadreeb-ur-Râwi by Suyuti]
The same term is also used by the scholars of fiqh, but their definition is slightly different. They say,
“A mashhoor hadîth is one which was not mutawâtir in the generation of the Holy Companions, but became mutawâtir immediately after them.” [Usool of Sarkhasi]
The mashhoor hadîth according to each definition falls in the second category following the mutawâtir.

(3) Khabar-ul-Wâhid. It is a hadîth whose narrators are less than three in any given generation.

The authenticity of this kind depends on the veracity of its narrators. If the narrator is trustworthy in all respects, the report given by him can be accepted, but if the single reporter is believed to be doubtful, the entire report subsequently remains doubtful.

Quote:- Whereas we Cannot take HADITH as Primary Source JUST bcoz it's a Case of Person-Person Transmission (Khaber e Wahid) & it can NEVER provide any kind of SURITY even if a Hadith is in "Sahih" Category & it is Present in BOTH bukhari & Muslim. This is NOT my OPINION.

Reply:-What I have posted above regarding the three Kind of Ahadtih, (Khaber e Wahid) is fall under the third kind.Please don’t confused others and note that not all Ahadith are (Khaber e Wahid).The first two kinds 1) Mutawâtir: and 2) Mashhoor are authotic Ahadith and when a hadith is authentic so its proved that it is from our Prophet(pbuh) and every authentic report from our Prophet(pbuh) is called the Sunnah of Prophet(pbuh).I hope that it will be clear to you now.

Quote:-It is the Decision of All MUHADDISEEN (Scholar of Ahadith).

Reply:-No brother its not true,other wise could you please give the names of those MUHADDISEEN and some references in this regards.

Quote:-Brother WHY NOT U TRY to UNDERSTAND our this SIMPLE Argument? U Know ur INSIST on Hadith is GIVING Islam/Sharee'ah a v v v WEAK Base?

Reply:- Brother should I follow you or Quran.I am posting some quotation from the book of Taqi Usmani Sahib in this regards.The answer is there brother, you need to ponder into it with open heart.Here only sinlge verse has been quoted,there are many verses like that whom calling for Ahadith(Sunnah) to be followed.Please visit the following link if you wish see the more about the Sunnah of our Prophet(pbuh).There are three chapters there.

http://www.ccminc.faithweb.com/iqra/articles/authsun/chap1.html

We have revealed to you the Zikr (Qur’ân) so that you may explain to the people what has been sent down for them.

The word “Zikr” has been used here for the Holy Qur’ân as has been used in the verse 15:9 and it has been made clear that the people can only benefit from its guidance when they are led by the explanations of the Holy Prophet (pbuh).
Again, the words “for the people” indicate (especially in the original Arabic context), that the Holy Prophet’s (pbuh)explanation is always needed by “everyone.”

Now, if everyone, in every age is in need of the prophetic explanation, without which they cannot fully benefit from the Holy Book, how would it be useful for them to preserve the Qur’ânic text and leave its prophetic explanation at the mercy of distorters, extending to it no type of protection whatsoever.

Therefore, once the necessity of the prophetic explanations of the Holy Qur’ân is accepted, it will be self-contradictory to claim that these explanations are unavailable today. It will amount to negating the divine wisdom, because it is in no way a wise policy to establish the necessity of the sunnah on the one hand and to make its discovery impossible on the other. Such a policy cannot be attributed to Allâh, the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.


Sohail Usmani
JunaidHasan

GERMANY
Posted - Wednesday, June 14, 2006  -  10:51 PM 
Excellent point from brother Usmani that every hadith is not khabr-e-wahid. What I have concluded so far is that khabr-e-wahid cannot be the basic source (though still a great source of guidance) or may be scrutinized but, on the other hand, mutawatir hadith should be considered as a basic source as it has come down to us through tawatur – just the way the Qur’an and Sunnah have reached us.

Sincerely,

Junaid
ibrahim
Moderator

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, June 15, 2006  -  10:42 AM 
My DEAR Brothers Junaid & Sohail

U both NOT KNOW the Difference Between a Khaber e Wahid & Khaber e Mutawaatir. Plz carefully NOTE that a Hadith Even if its Narraters r 70 may be Regarded as a Mutawater Hadith BUT it is STILL a Khaber e Wahid Bcoz Khaber Mutawatir means that KHABER whose Narraters r UNCOUNTABLE
so
All Ahadith r Khaber e Wahid Technically providing a ZANNI knowledge
&
Only Quran & Sunnah r Khaber e Mutawater & ONLY these TWO provide a YAQEENI knowledge.

U people may Confirm the above thing from any EXPERT of Hadith.

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