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ibrahim

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, October 21, 2005  -  7:33 AM Reply with quote
Thanks Abullah for your reply. Here is My response:

1stly, plz Note that "Ijmaa" means that All people Collectively Claim that there is No Doubt OR Contradiction in it Whereas "Tawaatur" means Generation-to-Generation Continuous Transmission (verses Person-to-Person Transmission generally Termed as "Akhbaar-e-Aahaad"). I hope this helps as I've tried to Explain them in simple words instead of Defining them)

2ndly, It's V V V Important to Understand the Difference between Hadith & Sunnah as Both have NO resemblence to eachother. Hadith, as v Well known, are the Reportings of Saying, Actions & "Taqreer" of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and weren't, as U've said, collected in the Forms of Books until 200 years after his death.
BUT
"SUNNAH" is the Practicle Part of Islam like Prayer & many other things & Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) Taught them to his Companions as he taught them the holy Quran. In fact this Sunnah is an Established Tradition since Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) 7 was V well known not only to people of Arabia (bani Ismaeel) ONLY but to "bani Israeel" (Jews & Christians) as well. This is the Reason that we Do Not SEE any Detail of Prayer etc in the Quran. If U r really interested to Understand the Sunnah Properly then I'll suggest & request that Plz Go thru the Course "Understanding the Sunnah" offered here at the Site. (Just click here & Select the Course & read the Material: http://www.studying-islam.org/courselist.aspx)

If U've understood this Difference Even to Some Extent then I hope that NOW you'll be able to appriciate What I said in my Last Post. Muslim Ummah as a Whole believes that Both Quran & Sunnah have been trasmitted to us By the "Ijmaa & Tawaatur" of the Ummah, One Orally with its Text; The Quran & Other Practically; the Sunnah.

Plz tell Me How much NOW u've understood this Becoz only then we can GO Ahead in our Discussion

May Allah show us the Right Path
regrds
Hafiz Ibrahim
aijaz47

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, October 22, 2005  -  7:19 PM Reply with quote
quote:

I can give you simple logical proof that Rashad Khalifah's followers' statements that Quran is corrupted with 2 extra verses is contradictory.

From verse 78 in Sura Waqia and other verses we know that the Quran is in Lauh-i-Mahfooz - a kind of a lock, and so it cannot be changed. This is Allah's gurantee to us, the Quran will not be changed.

Rashad Khalifah's followers' believe in the rest of Quran besides the two verses they reject - and the part they believe in includes the verses that say that Quran cannot be changed.

So they are contradicting themselves. If they say two verses were added, then that contradicts the claim in the other parts of the Quran they believe in that Quran cannot be changed!

If you believe them that the Quran was changed, then you will have to remove other verses also that claim Quran is in a lock.


You have proved your point in a logical manner. I would like to draw the attention of all the participants to following two verses of Al Anam:

114. Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

115. The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.

The above arguments by Mr. Oosman and the above two verses of Al Anam, hopefully shall change the concept of Mr. Shamsher about the true meaning of Loh-e-Mehfooz.

Ijaz

Edited by: aijaz47 on Saturday, October 22, 2005 7:31 PM
zantetsuken

USA
Posted - Sunday, October 23, 2005  -  7:47 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Thanks Abullah for your reply. Here is My response:

1stly, plz Note that "Ijmaa" means that All people Collectively Claim that there is No Doubt OR Contradiction in it Whereas "Tawaatur" means Generation-to-Generation Continuous Transmission (verses Person-to-Person Transmission generally Termed as "Akhbaar-e-Aahaad"). I hope this helps as I've tried to Explain them in simple words instead of Defining them)

2ndly, It's V V V Important to Understand the Difference between Hadith & Sunnah as Both have NO resemblence to eachother. Hadith, as v Well known, are the Reportings of Saying, Actions & "Taqreer" of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and weren't, as U've said, collected in the Forms of Books until 200 years after his death.
BUT
"SUNNAH" is the Practicle Part of Islam like Prayer & many other things & Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) Taught them to his Companions as he taught them the holy Quran. In fact this Sunnah is an Established Tradition since Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) 7 was V well known not only to people of Arabia (bani Ismaeel) ONLY but to "bani Israeel" (Jews & Christians) as well. This is the Reason that we Do Not SEE any Detail of Prayer etc in the Quran. If U r really interested to Understand the Sunnah Properly then I'll suggest & request that Plz Go thru the Course "Understanding the Sunnah" offered here at the Site. (Just click here & Select the Course & read the Material: http://www.studying-islam.org/courselist.aspx)

If U've understood this Difference Even to Some Extent then I hope that NOW you'll be able to appriciate What I said in my Last Post. Muslim Ummah as a Whole believes that Both Quran & Sunnah have been trasmitted to us By the "Ijmaa & Tawaatur" of the Ummah, One Orally with its Text; The Quran & Other Practically; the Sunnah.

Plz tell Me How much NOW u've understood this Becoz only then we can GO Ahead in our Discussion

May Allah show us the Right Path
regrds
Hafiz Ibrahim


I appreciate your time brother Ibrahim.

I get what you're saying now. Sunna is kind of technical way to help you live the complete lifestyle, and help explain the 5 'arkan', passed through the generations. I'll probably need more time to investigate because I thought they were only written from memory 200 years after Mohammed's death. But hadith is more trusted sayings that should be evaluated because there are some possibly false ones.
Insha Allah I will take this course or one like it in the future but I have very busy course load lately.
Abdullah
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, October 26, 2005  -  10:01 AM Reply with quote
Salam,

Quote:- Al Anam Verse 7: And even if We had sent down unto you (O Muhammad ) a Message written on paper so that they could touch it with their hands, the disbelievers would have said: "This is nothing but obvious magic!"


Al Anam Verse 20: Those to whom We have given the Book know this as they know their own sons. Those who have lost their own souls refuse therefore to believe.

>>> Brother these verses say about the original Qur’an without insertion of two false verses.


Salam
Samsher.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, October 26, 2005  -  10:07 AM Reply with quote
Salam,
Quote:- I can give you simple logical proof that Rashad Khalifah's followers' statements that Quran is corrupted with 2 extra verses is contradictory.
>>> I have said enough that two verses i.e. 9:128-129 were added in the Qur’an and mathematical miracle of the Qur’an proved this. So brother, there is no contradiction. Please look once again;
Please note the emphasize on "We" in verse 15.9: “Absolutely, we have revealed the reminder, and, absolutely, we will preserve it”. The verse refers to God Almighty in regard of preserving His book. What does that mean? It is not you (people) who will preserve the Zikr, it is God who will preserve it. Is it possible that the revelation contains an automatic protection? If yes, then God Almighty did not say that He will preserve the reminder. Now how does God preserve the Zikr? Obviously, with its own revelation. How do we know, or what is the proof? We know this through the Zikra (74.31), which is "Nineteen" (74.30) and "One of the greatest" (74.37). Zikra (74.31) is the virus protection of the Zikr and it is encoded in it in a miraculous way.
You can see many ancient documents, tablets and books in museums and special sections of libraries. They are preserved by human effort and technology for hundreds and even thousands of years. If the preservation of the Quran was similar to this "normal" and "ordinary" human affair, then, why should God emphasize Himself and give the impression that the preservation of the Quran is a "divine" and "unique" feature? It is not necessarily a divine merit for a book to be pre-served by its zealot followers. For instance, Bukhari is a document, which has been well preserved for approximately 12 centuries.
Now there are thousands of copies of the original Quran that do not contain 9.128-129 are circulated and read all around the world. Does this version of the Quran refute the divine promise in verse 15.9? If your answer will start, "No, the distortion made by a community of diverted people does not refute the verse, be-cause. . . . ", then our answer will also start, "No, the distortion made by idol worshipers after prophet Muhammad centuries ago does not refute the verse, be-cause. . . . " What is the difference between these two cases?
The validity of a negative statement or challenge (such as in verse 41.42) cannot be proved unless we witness the failure of attempts against it. It is a circular argument to say that it is preserved be-cause it claims so, since the claim of preservation also is under question. Similarly we cannot say that it is preserved because it is preserved. For instance, if I claim that no one can climb the walls of my castle, my challenge will not make sense until some people try and fail to do so. If the trials and failures of some people demonstrate that my castle’s walls have been protected by an impenetrable surface with virtually zero friction supported by high volt-age electricity and an automatic alarm system, then my challenge is proven.
An example of such proof is the word "Bastatan" in 7.69. The code 19, demonstrated that falsehood can never enter the Quran). If you look at the Quran in your hand you will see that the word "Bastatan" in verse 7.69 is misspelled with "Sad." We detected this minor printing error through the Quran’s mathematical code. When we studied the oldest available versions, for instance, the Tashkent Copy, we found that it is exactly the way that we had predicted according to the mathematical structure.
Besides, how can you answer the question regarding the authenticity of the very verse that claims the preservation. What if, after the dangerous arguments started soon after the death of prophet Muhammad, some zealots constructed or fabricated the verses 15.9 and 41.42, and it was well ac-accepted by pragmatist leaders to heal the social discord in their land? After all, there were no shortage of people who could produce Arabic statements in the name of God or the prophet e.g. 9:128-129.
Besides, how can you prove that two false verses were not inserted into the Qur’an by the Sunni Muslim?
Quote:- Rashad Khalifah's followers' believe in the rest of Quran besides the two verses they reject.
>>> Wrong. Verses 9:128-129 were added in the Qur’an and were not the part of original Qur’an. Also read all my replies (above) regarding the subject.
Quote:- If they say two verses were added, then that contradicts the claim in the other parts of the Quran they believe in that Quran cannot be changed!
>>> Reply above.
Also I said earlier that the word “Raheem” of verses 9:128-129 is used for Muhammad. This is an exception and wrong, because this word ‘Raheem’ is used in the Qur’an exclusively as a name of GOD. According to 7:188, 10:49, 72:21 the Prophet did not posses any power of mercy.
Moreover, I have a copy of R.K’s English translation of Qur’an and I read it. Thousands of copies of R.K’s English translation of Qur’an and also Arabic Qur’an were red all over the world. In these Qur’an(Arabic & Translation) the two false verses 9:128-129 were not included but the verse of preserving the Qur’an i.e. 15:9 remained with these Qur’an (Arabic & Translation). So brother we are not contradicting rather you.
[6:4] No matter what kind of proof comes to them from their Lord, they turn away from it, in aversion.

Salam
Samsher


Edited by: ibrahim on Thursday, December 08, 2005 7:42 AM
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, October 26, 2005  -  10:10 AM Reply with quote
Quote:- "SUNNAH" is the Practicle Part of Islam like Prayer & many other things & Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) Taught them to his Companions as he taught them the holy Quran.

>>> As you believe, Prophet had taught us that we should read our salat in different tone. Is’nt? Almighty Allah says that we should offer our salat in maintaining moderate (audible) tone(17:110). Despite this you and your team claim that this is sunnah of Prophet that we should read our salat maintaining in different tones. How ridiculous!!!


Quote:- This is the Reason that we Do Not SEE any Detail of Prayer etc in the Quran.

>>> You can’t see and will never see brother, because you do not believe that Qur’an is complete, fully detailed and perfect. Yet you claim that you are follower of Prophet.

I/we cannot guide you and your team brother.

[28:56] You cannot guide the ones you love. GOD is the only One who guides in accordance with His will, and in accordance with His knowledge of those who deserve the guidance.


Salam,
Samsher
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, October 26, 2005  -  10:13 AM Reply with quote
Salam

Quote :- You have proved your point in a logical manner. I would like to draw the attention of all the participants to following two verses of Al Anam:

114. Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

115. The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.

>>> Then brother why don’t you believe yourself on the above verses? Why do you seek help from other than GOD as source of Law i.e. from men-made hadith and Sunnah, when Almighty Allah revealed the Qur’an fully detailed as said in verse 114 above? Why do you change HIS words, when you know that none can change HIS words as said in verse 115 above?

Salam
Samsher
oosman

USA
Posted - Wednesday, October 26, 2005  -  7:19 PM Reply with quote
It is really very strange what you say. You quote these verses and you believe in them:

114. Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

115. The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.

and yet you doubt its contents, and you say His words have been changed. That is the biggest contradiction I have ever heard!!!
oosman

USA
Posted - Wednesday, October 26, 2005  -  8:31 PM Reply with quote
I think there is a flaw in the mathematical model you use. Give me links to where I can study it.
aijaz47

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, October 26, 2005  -  9:10 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Salam,
Quote:- Al Anam Verse 7: And even if We had sent down unto you (O Muhammad ) a Message written on paper so that they could touch it with their hands, the disbelievers would have said: "This is nothing but obvious magic!"

Al Anam Verse 20: Those to whom We have given the Book know this as they know their own sons. Those who have lost their own souls refuse therefore to believe.

>>> Brother these verses say about the original Qur’an without insertion of two false verses.

Salam
Samsher.

And from your previous post, you like us to believe that the Orignal Quran is written in the Loh-e-Mahfoz which resides with God; so that God can check for error, and God waited for almost 14 centuries and finally deceided that enough is enough and revealed the secrect code of 19 to Rashid Khalifa, who in turn informed us that last two veses of Sura Toba, which are part of Sura Toba from day one are infact not a part of Sura Toba!!!!

Regards
Ijaz

Edited by: ibrahim on Thursday, October 27, 2005 7:15 AM
aijaz47

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, October 26, 2005  -  9:53 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Salam
Quote :- You have proved your point in a logical manner. I would like to draw the attention of all the participants to following two verses of Al Anam:

114. Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

115. The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.

>>> Then brother why don’t you believe yourself on the above verses? Why do you seek help from other than GOD as source of Law i.e. from men-made hadith and Sunnah, when Almighty Allah revealed the Qur’an fully detailed as said in verse 114 above? Why do you change HIS words, when you know that none can change HIS words as said in verse 115 above?

Salam
Samsher
Dear Brother

You seem to be angry. Don't you?

It surprises me. I do not remember having made any such claim.

I am participating in this forum solely for the purpose of increasing my knowledge; willing to accept valid reasoning and I expect the same attitude from all the participants. This in my opinion is the only way towards a healthy, meaningful discussion.

I have gone through most of your posts which are always very lenghty. Let me admit here that your are a very knowledgeable person. But what surprises me most is that so are devoting all your energies to defend Rashid Khalifa to prove his view point about the so called addition of certain verses.

Let me ask you. Do you realy need to follow Rashid Khalifa? Dont you think you must be following and believing the Quran.

You do not belive in the Sunna and Hadith,but surprisingly the sayings (hadith) of Rashid Khalifa are acceptable to you.

I do believe in above two verses and quoted these for your kind cosideration.

Regards
Ijaz

Edited by: ibrahim on Thursday, October 27, 2005 7:18 AM
ibrahim

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, October 27, 2005  -  7:44 AM Reply with quote
Dear brother Samsher
May Allah Show us The RIGHT path & Bless US to Follow it. Amin
Quote:- As you believe, Prophet had taught us that we should read our salat in different tone. Is’nt? Almighty Allah says that we should offer our salat in maintaining moderate (audible) tone(17:110). Despite this you and your team claim that this is sunnah of Prophet that we should read our salat maintaining in different tones. How ridiculous!!!
>>>Brother, Ridiculous is That the ORDER of moderate (audible) tone described in (17:110) is about the Tahajjud Prayer. I hope you'll have heared that after the NAZUL of this verse Prophet (pbuh) asked Hazrat Umar to LOWER his Tone & Abu Bakr to Higher his tone in their Tahajjud Prayers. Don't U think that we've to UNDERSTAND Quranic verses according to their Context???

Quote:- You can’t see and will never see brother, because you do not believe that Qur’an is complete, fully detailed and perfect.
We believe that Quran is Perfect & Complete from Al-Hamd to Wannaas BUT it's quite ridiculous to believe that Quran Contains Every single Detail of Every thing.

Quote:- I/we cannot guide you and your team brother.
Yes U cannot Guide US Because U r JUST Drowned from Head to Foot in your OWM man-made Views & U even Don't try to Understand others Point of View. By the Way we Don't NEED ur Guidence TOO in the Presence OF GOD-Given Guidence.

Tell me One Thing WHERE in QURAN Allah has Said that THESE verses r TRUE Quranic verses & these r FALSE verses? What is Quranic Formula about them & Where it is Written???
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Friday, October 28, 2005  -  5:53 AM Reply with quote
quote:

It is really very strange what you say. You quote these verses and you believe in them:

114. Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

115. The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.

and yet you doubt its contents, and you say His words have been changed. That is the biggest contradiction I have ever heard!!!


Salam,

Perhaps you did not read my article which I sent to this forum on 26th October, 2005. Please read this and also the link.

Samsher
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Friday, October 28, 2005  -  6:03 AM Reply with quote
quote:

I think there is a flaw in the mathematical model you use. Give me links to where I can study it.


Salam,

Then go http://www.submission.org/math-ap1.html and read.

Samsher
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Friday, October 28, 2005  -  6:12 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Salam,
Quote:- Al Anam Verse 7: And even if We had sent down unto you (O Muhammad ) a Message written on paper so that they could touch it with their hands, the disbelievers would have said: "This is nothing but obvious magic!"
Al Anam Verse 20: Those to whom We have given the Book know this as they know their own sons. Those who have lost their own souls refuse therefore to believe.
>>> Brother these verses say about the original Qur’an without insertion of two false verses.
Salam
Samsher.

And from your previous post, you like us to believe that the Orignal Quran is written in the Loh-e-Mahfoz which resides with God; so that God can check for error, and God waited for almost 14 centuries and finally deceided that enough is enough and revealed the secrect code of 19 to Rashid Khalifa, who in turn informed us that last two veses of Sura Toba, which are part of Sura Toba from day one are infact not a part of Sura Toba!!!!
Regards
Ijaz

Salam,

I cannot say anything to you kind of people. You can examine yourself, if Almighty Allah permits to do that. Please read the article which I sent on 26th October, 2005.
[30:58] Thus, we have cited for the people in this Quran all kinds of examples. Yet, no matter what kind of proof you present to the disbelievers, they say, "You are falsifiers."
[30:59] GOD thus seals the hearts of those who do not know.

Salam
Samsher

Edited by: ibrahim on Thursday, December 08, 2005 7:47 AM
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Friday, October 28, 2005  -  6:22 AM Reply with quote
Quote:- Let me ask you. Do you realy need to follow Rashid Khalifa? Dont you think you must be following and believing the Quran.

You do not belive in the Sunna and Hadith,but surprisingly the sayings (hadith) of Rashid Khalifa are acceptable to you.

>>> Firstly, I am not angry with you, which you blamed me. This is your amagination.

Seconly, we should follow the Messenger/ Message. When the messenger as a person is dead then we should follow only his message(i.e.Qur'an for ours) and this is said in the Qur'an several times, no need to mention here again & again.

lastly, You blamed that I accepted the sayings of Rashad Khalifa. This is wrong. I do not accept any sayings of Rashad Khalifa,which are not existing in the Qur'an.

Salam
Samsher

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