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hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Monday, March 19, 2007  -  9:25 PM Reply with quote
thnx rakhtal 'n samsher; aray bhai larna kiya 'yeh parhain wo naheen parhain' sab parhain(why to fight 'read this,don't read that--' read all!) bring to the public what you hv and believe as right honestly and present the evidence you have(this is why this website is at your service ); then leave it to the people to understand --after all we are talking to humans with minds--not cattles

like we mentioned millat e ibrahimi in the light of Qur'an and the teachings of the beloved sws ps below:


contd:

The third of these are the divine scriptures which are present in the Bible in the form of the Torah, the Gospels and the Psalms. Their recipients have lost parts of them to posterity and have also been guilty of interpolations in them. However, still a rich treasure of the shari‘ah and hikmah revealed by the Almighty is present in them in its vintage divine style. Students of the Qur’an know that it has referred to them at various places, has made concise allusions to the prophetic tales mentioned in them and has negated the interpolations of the Jews and the Christians and criticized the history presented in them. The Qur’an has based its itmam al-hujjah (unveiling of the truth to the extent that nobody denies it) on these very scriptures and it unequivocally declares that its fountainhead and origin is the same as these scriptures:



نَزَّلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ وَأَنزَلَ التَّوْرَاةَ وَالإِنجِيلَ مِن قَبْلُ هُدًى لِّلنَّاسِ وَأَنزَلَ الْفُرْقَانَ إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ بِآيَاتِ اللّهِ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ شَدِيدٌ وَاللّهُ عَزِيزٌ ذُو انتِقَامٍ (3: 3-4)

[O Prophet!], He has revealed to you the Book with the truth, in confirmation of the scriptures which preceded it; and before this He has already revealed the Torah and the Gospel for the guidance of mankind, and [after them] revealed this furqan. Indeed, those that deny God’s revelations shall be sternly punished; God is mighty and capable of retribution. (3:3-4)


إِنَّا أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ كَمَا أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَى نُوحٍ وَالنَّبِيِّينَ مِن بَعْدِهِ وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإْسْحَقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالأَسْبَاطِ وَعِيسَى وَأَيُّوبَ وَيُونُسَ وَهَارُونَ وَسُلَيْمَانَ وَآتَيْنَا دَاوُودَ زَبُورًا (163:4)

O Prophet (sws)! We have sent revelations to you as We sent revelations to Noah and to the prophets who came after him, and as We sent revelations to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his progeny and to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, Solomon, and We gave the Psalms to David. (4:163)



It is because of this background of the Qur’an because of which certain things should be accepted as a principle in interpreting the Qur’an.

Firstly, this religion stands completed with the awareness of good and evil which is found in human nature and which the Qur’an calls ma‘ruf (good) and munkar (evil). This ma‘ruf and munkar precede the directives and prohibitions of the shari‘ah which are prescribed in the Qur’an, and are the foundations on which the latter stand. Any concept of the shari‘ah which is devoid of the good and evil found in human nature will definitely be defective and against the purport of the Qur’an.

Secondly, the Sunnah is not after the Qur’an; it precedes it historically. Hence it shall be derived from the consensus and perpetual adherence of the ummah to it. They shall not be derived from the Qur’an the way some scholars of contemporary times have done so, and in this manner grossly misinterpreted the Qur’an.


Thirdly, in order to understand styles peculiar to divine literature, the history of the Jews and the Christians and accounts of the Israelite prophets and the allusions of the Qur’an to other similar topics as well as the details of facts it briefly refers to, the real source are the previous scriptures. They shall be regarded as the basis of debate and discussion. In this regard, the narratives which have been recorded in various exegeses of the Qur’an and which are mostly based on hearsay shall be disregarded. These narratives cannot be a substitute to the light which ancient scriptures caste on these subjects and the way the words of the Qur’an accept these details or bring to surface the real facts about certain aspects mentioned in them. Such narratives neither satisfy the intellect of the students of the Qur’an nor prove of any worth as an argument for the People of the Book.




for details see

http://renaissance.com.pk/JanQur2y7.htm
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, March 21, 2007  -  10:37 AM Reply with quote
Salam, h.khan

Dear khan, If you think that we are fighting with you, then your are also fighting with us because you always advised us to see the links of your father websites e.g. www.renaissance.co.pk etc..etc.. Whatever may be, I asked you a question through my earlier post on Thursday, March 15, 2007. Did you see it?? If yes, then please tell me the truth.

2ndly I hope that every one of this forum had already seen/read that article which I sent on 19 March, 2007 regarding ‘Millat Ibraheem’. What is Millat Ibraheem, this article on http://www.quran-islam.org/176.html clearly explained. If any one did not read this till date, he can read for his satisfaction, if he wish.

Samsher
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Wednesday, March 21, 2007  -  2:09 PM Reply with quote
dear ali,
1.Is it ok to obey the Quran which is a verbal transmission of Muhammad BUT NOT the authentic traditions which is a verbal transmission of the same Muhammad?? I realize the Quran is protected by Allah, but will plz answer the original question...where can I find the performance of the actions required by the Quran in the Quran.
(short answers plz )

Edited by: raushan on Thursday, March 22, 2007 7:34 AM
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Wednesday, March 21, 2007  -  2:15 PM Reply with quote
2.I have to agree that Muhammad did not write hadith. In fact, I do not think he wrote the Quran either. I am referring to the one people the world over think is the Quran, the one in Arabic.

Who did you think wrote the Quran? Some say it was written by scribes and approved by Muhammad himself before he passed away. Do you agree? Are they telling the truth? How do we verify that? Please do not give me "he said/she said" baloney. Only the truth.

3.
I am concerned that for you, the only authentic Quran is what Rashad Khalifa claims is his english translation of the Quran. Would you say that everyone must read English to read his translation, the only authentic Quran?

Edited by: raushan on Thursday, March 22, 2007 7:35 AM
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Wednesday, March 21, 2007  -  2:20 PM Reply with quote
4.
[3.31] Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

The ayat say to be loved by God you must love and obey Him and His messenger. How are you obeying the Messenger? By practicing what he preached. The MESSAGE was the words of the Quran and the actions of the Messenger...NOT JUST THE QURAN. If it was just the Quran...there is NO POINT in OBEYING THE MESSENGER. Isnt it clear enough for us to understand?

Edited by: raushan on Thursday, March 22, 2007 7:38 AM
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Wednesday, March 21, 2007  -  2:24 PM Reply with quote
5.
I again ask you....the Quran requires me to perform Hajj, Salat, Zakat, Sawm, etc. over and over again. Yet no where does it describe the means by which to perform these actions. It is only by the actions of the appointed Apostle of God can I learn this.
(few months back I asked you if the salat end with last prostration then there must be more than one prostration in salat,then tell me how many prostrations should be in salah)

Edited by: raushan on Thursday, March 22, 2007 7:39 AM
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Wednesday, March 21, 2007  -  2:26 PM Reply with quote
6.
The Prophet was taught by the angel Jibril the understanding of the Quran, how to pray, how to perform Hajj, etc. These are not things he already knew. You, unless you have a link to God, cannot follow the Quran like the Apostle did..because he learned through revealation. You are not an Apostle.
---------
your comments in brief on the above statement.

Edited by: raushan on Thursday, March 22, 2007 7:41 AM
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Wednesday, March 21, 2007  -  2:28 PM Reply with quote
7.
The Quran is a ''Book from Allah" because Muhammad told the people what the Quran was/is.
So if you cannot obey what "Mohammad" left ...than you cannot obey the Quran...because Muhammad tranmitted the Quran..

Edited by: raushan on Thursday, March 22, 2007 7:42 AM
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Wednesday, March 21, 2007  -  2:42 PM Reply with quote
brother ali,
All I want a brief discussion(not lectures)to develop an understanding .Plz dont quote or reference others as your own short logical arguments are enough and authentic to me.
(Marathon details to support one's claims means diverting attention)

wassalam
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Friday, March 23, 2007  -  11:35 AM Reply with quote
quote:

dear ali,
1.Is it ok to obey the Quran which is a verbal transmission of Muhammad BUT NOT the authentic traditions which is a verbal transmission of the same Muhammad?? I realize the Quran is protected by Allah, but will plz answer the original question...where can I find the performance of the actions required by the Quran in the Quran.
(short answers plz )

Edited by: raushan on Thursday, March 22, 2007 7:34 AM


Dear Raushan,

Reply:- Qur’an proclaims that we should not follow anything besides IT as source of our religious law of Islam. Also Qur’an proclaims that Qur’an is FULLY DETAILED, COMPLETE & PERFECT. What do you think to say FULLY DETAILED, COMPLETE…etc???

[6:114] Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.

[6:115] The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

[10:37] This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than GOD. It confirms all previous messages, and PROVIDES A FULLY DETAILED SCRIPTURE. It is infallible, for it comes from the Lord of the universe.

[2:185] Ramadan is the month during which the QURAN WAS REVEALED, PROVIDING GUIDANCE FOR THE PEOPLE, CLEAR TEACHINGS, AND THE STATUTE BOOK.

[10:37] This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than GOD. It confirms all previous messages, AND PROVIDES A FULLY DETAILED SCRIPTURE.

[18:109] Say, "If the ocean were ink for the words of my Lord, the ocean would run out, before the words of my Lord run out, even if we double the ink supply."

Particularly this verse clearly implies that if Almighty Allah felt necessary to give us a much bigger Qur’an than the present one, then He could have easily be given, because He is not short of words. But HE did not feel so.

Islam was completed through the revelation of Qur’an.(5:3)

The above verses clearly imply that Qur’an is FULLY DETAILED, COMPLETE and is the ONLY GUIDANCE FOR US. So I think we should not require any other source besides it to observe Islam. If you think otherwise then it is your choice, I have no objection

[39:29] GOD cites the example of a man who deals with disputing partners (Hadith), compared to a man who deals with only one consistent source (Quran). Are they the same? Praise be to GOD; most of them do not know.


Samsher.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Friday, March 23, 2007  -  12:13 PM Reply with quote
quote:

2.I have to agree that Muhammad did not write hadith. In fact, I do not think he wrote the Quran either. I am referring to the one people the world over think is the Quran, the one in Arabic.

Who did you think wrote the Quran? Some say it was written by scribes and approved by Muhammad himself before he passed away. Do you agree? Are they telling the truth? How do we verify that? Please do not give me "he said/she said" baloney. Only the truth.

3.
I am concerned that for you, the only authentic Quran is what Rashad Khalifa claims is his english translation of the Quran. Would you say that everyone must read English to read his translation, the only authentic Quran?

Dear raushan,

Q:- 2. Reply:- Although Qur’an does not say us HOW IT WAS WROTE DOWN yet I think (it is my understanding) Prophet Muhammad was the first to write down the Quran (may be through the scribes) revealed to him and when he died , the whole Quran was completely written, although not in one book, but rather on pieces of woods, papers, palm leaves, bones…etc. It was the first Khalifa, Abu Bakr who collected the Quran into one book. The manuscript on which the Qur'an was collected, remained with Abu Bakr and then with Umar (the second Khalifa), and after him, it remained with Hafsa, 'Umar's daughter and one of the Prophet's wives. This copy of the Quran, was the only copy made after Muhammad's own copy. It is from that copy that Uthman, the third Khalifa, made other copies to distribute to different regions of the Islamic Empire. Uthman returned Hafsa's copy of the Quran to her. Her copy however was later burned by Marwan b. Hakam (d.65/684). Of the copies made by Uthman, two still exist to our day. One is in the city of Tashkent, (Uzbekistan) and the second one is in Istanbul (Turkey).

The most important question here is that the above information is not require for our salvation or the above information does not fall under the category of Religious Law.

3. Reply: I don’t think so. It is independent ‘s choice. I can say only that the Rashad Khalifa’s English translation of Qur’an is the easiest and more accurate than the other English translations

Samsher

Edited by: ibrahim on Saturday, March 24, 2007 8:20 AM
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Friday, March 23, 2007  -  12:30 PM Reply with quote
Dear raushan,

Reply:- 4. Why Almighty Allah said ‘obey messenger’ instead of ‘obey Muhammad’? I know now you ask me this type of question e.g. ‘was not Muhammad a messenger….etc..etc.?’ Yes Muhammad was a messenger, but my question is why Almighty Allah did not say even in single instance in the Qur’an that ‘Obey Allah and Obey Muhammad’, instead all the times God said in the Qur’an ‘Obey Allah and Obey messenger’ Why?

It is because Almighty Allah wants to say that we should follow/obey only his message i.e. Qur’an so He said every time in the Qur’an that ‘Obey Allah and Obey messenger’. Prophet Muhammad practiced ONLY QUR’AN and nothing else. He preached Qur’an and practiced Qur’an.

Samsher
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Friday, March 23, 2007  -  12:42 PM Reply with quote
Reply: 5. I again ask you, do you not believe that Qur’an is Fully Detailed, Complete….? If yes then you should not ask this question. I think you should ask yourself the question whether ‘do you believe Almighty Allah’s proclamation that Qur’an is Fully Detailed, Complete… or not? When Almighty Allah says that Qur’an is Fully Detailed and Complete then It is. Do you think that Almighty Allah commands us to observe Hajj, Salat, Zakat, Sawm but he did not give the details of these rites in the Qur’an, yet He proclaimed that Qur’an is Fully Detailed, Complete and also He forbade us to take any other source as source of religious law beside Qur’an!!!!!!!!!

(few months back I had already answered your question)

Samsher
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Friday, March 23, 2007  -  12:47 PM Reply with quote
salam raushan,

Quote : The Prophet was taught by the angel Jibril the understanding of the Quran, how to pray, how to perform Hajj, etc. These are not things he already knew. You, unless you have a link to God, cannot follow the Quran like the Apostle did..because he learned through revealation. You are not an Apostle.
---------
your comments in brief on the above statement.

Reply: At first you tell me where in the Qur’an did you find that Muhammad learnt how to perform Hajj, salat etc. etc… from Jibril????

Samsher
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Saturday, March 24, 2007  -  11:58 AM Reply with quote
quote:

quote:

dear ali,
1.Is it ok to obey the Quran which is a verbal transmission of Muhammad BUT NOT the authentic traditions which is a verbal transmission of the same Muhammad?? I realize the Quran is protected by Allah, but will plz answer the original question...where can I find the performance of the actions required by the Quran in the Quran.
(short answers plz )

Edited by: raushan on Thursday, March 22, 2007 7:34 AM


Dear Raushan,

Reply:- Qur’an proclaims that we should not follow anything besides IT as source of our religious law of Islam. Also Qur’an proclaims that Qur’an is FULLY DETAILED, COMPLETE & PERFECT. What do you think to say FULLY DETAILED, COMPLETE…etc???

I didnt ask whether Quran is perfect,detailed,complete or not.Every muslim knows it.
What I asked you is simple: "where"can we get 'the performance of actions required by Quran'?"where" means the sources who can say us the details of a situation where the Quranic guidelines are executed during the last prophet's time.
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Saturday, March 24, 2007  -  12:12 PM Reply with quote
quote:

quote:

2.I have to agree that Muhammad did not write hadith. In fact, I do not think he wrote the Quran either. I am referring to the one people the world over think is the Quran, the one in Arabic.

Who did you think wrote the Quran? Some say it was written by scribes and approved by Muhammad himself before he passed away. Do you agree? Are they telling the truth? How do we verify that? Please do not give me "he said/she said" baloney. Only the truth.

3.
I am concerned that for you, the only authentic Quran is what Rashad Khalifa claims is his english translation of the Quran. Would you say that everyone must read English to read his translation, the only authentic Quran?

Dear raushan,

Q:- 2. Reply:- Although Qur’an does not say us HOW IT WAS WROTE DOWN yet I think (it is my understanding) Prophet Muhammad was the first to write down the Quran (may be through the scribes) revealed to him and when he died , the whole Quran was completely written, although not in one book, but rather on pieces of woods, papers, palm leaves, bones…etc. It was the first Khalifa, Abu Bakr who collected the Quran into one book. The manuscript on which the Qur'an was collected, remained with Abu Bakr and then with Umar (the second Khalifa), and after him, it remained with Hafsa, 'Umar's daughter and one of the Prophet's wives. This copy of the Quran, was the only copy made after Muhammad's own copy. It is from that copy that Uthman, the third Khalifa, made other copies to distribute to different regions of the Islamic Empire. Uthman returned Hafsa's copy of the Quran to her. Her copy however was later burned by Marwan b. Hakam (d.65/684). Of the copies made by Uthman, two still exist to our day. One is in the city of Tashkent, (Uzbekistan) and the second one is in Istanbul (Turkey).

The most important question here is that the above information is not require for our salvation or the above information does not fall under the category of Religious Law.

Very true,excellent brother.
All I need to know that 'the standards of reliability'that 'who said 'you the above peice of research which led you to 'think' that its true or close to the truth.

quote:

3. Reply: I don’t think so. It is independent ‘s choice. I can say only that the Rashad Khalifa’s English translation of Qur’an is the easiest and more accurate than the other English translations

Samsher

Edited by: ibrahim on Saturday, March 24, 2007 8:20 AM
I appreciate,but one can have the same views for Yousuf Ali or Pickthal or anyother translator.do you agree to your own statement.
On the other note,I told you earlier in the previous question by Quran I mean the Quran in arabic.
can you say a translation can replace its original words or is it a human work and may prone to errors?

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