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sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, July 27, 2006  -  8:55 AM Reply with quote
Salam Nida-e-Khair,


Quote:- Brother, there's no way I can make you understand. I've given all the proofs I could.


Reply:- Haa..haa…How can you make me understand with your nonsensical gossip? I can’t tolerate any nonsensical gossip about Islam. If you could give any proof from the Qur’an in support of your opinion, then I surely understood but brother you could not been able to give any such proof till today. Moreover, from your reply to my earlier posts it clearly transpired that you have nothing to say against my Qur’anic logic. You are defeated.


Quote:- If you still don't believe me, I can't compel you to.


Reply:- I don’t believe on any story teller, who generally tell fabricated story about Islam.


Quote:- I'm tired of replying to you and your sidekick zulfee. But I'll still say that your argument is nonsensical.


Reply:- Brother don’t talk foolishly. Although you could not been able to give any single proof from the Qur’an in support of your opinion, but I have given you enough proof from the Qur’an in support of my opinion, yet you blamed me that my argument is nonsensical!!! Brother, you only argued with me for the sake of argument. Your argument has no basis in the Nobel Qur’an. Your argument is nonsensical and came from garbage like hadith & sunnah, fabricated and falsely attributed on Muhammad(pbuh).


(31:6) “Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless Hadith, and thus divert others from the path of GOD without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution”.

(31:7) “And when our revelations are recited to the one of them, he turns away in arrogance as if he never heard them, as if his ears are deaf. Promise him a painful retribution”.

(39:45) “When GOD ALONE is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter shrink with aversion. But when others are mentioned beside Him, they become satisfied”.

(6:51) “And preach with this (Quran) to those who reverence the summoning before their Lord - they have none beside Him as a Lord and Master, nor an intercessor - that they may attain salvation”.

(17:46) “We place shields around their minds, to prevent them from understanding it, and deafness in their ears. And when you preach your Lord, using the Quran alone, they run away in aversion”.

By….
Sk Samsher Ali.
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Thursday, July 27, 2006  -  12:18 PM Reply with quote
it would be better we do what we believe,..
otherwise arguing with an intention to defeat rather than understanding one another will lead to nowhere..
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, July 28, 2006  -  11:17 AM Reply with quote
To Brother sksamshirali:
Quote:
Although you could not been able to give any single proof from the Qur’an...

Excuse me?! I guess you haven't read my reply to the ten questions of Zulfee. The greatest proof I gave was from verse 59 of Surah Nisaa. It's up to you if you don't believe in it.
And by the way, not replying to you doesn't mean I'm defeated. I'm just being discreet. I would be a fool to answer a person like you who's not ready to believe in the Qur'an itself. It's totally a waste of time to argue with you, therefore my replies to you are over. Why don't you continue your arguments with other people in this forum who're more prepared than me to listen to your "logic".
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, July 28, 2006  -  11:39 AM Reply with quote
Quote:
[2:171] The example of such disbelievers is that of parrots who repeat what they hear of sounds and calls, without understanding. Deaf, dumb, and blind; they cannot understand.

Allow me to correct the translation:
"The similitude of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout like a goatherd, to things that listen to nothing except calls and cries. Deaf, dumb and blind, they'll not understand."

Also, I totally agree with raushan that it'll be better that we do what we believe in. None of us is going to believe in the other person. Therefore it's more wise if we don't argue with each other because these arguments will only increase our differences and pull us apart. They can't make us understand one other.
Raushan, I appreciate your wisdom. Jazaakallah.

Furthermore, this is is for Brother sksamshirali:
This is the second time I'm telling you that I'm not your brother, I'm your sister.
Zulfee

USA
Posted - Sunday, July 30, 2006  -  1:23 AM Reply with quote
Brother sksamshirali:

Our duty is only to convey the truth with COMPLETE EVIDENCE AND THE LOGIC and some are surely accepting though do not want to leave the false beliefs of their ancestors like the Mushrekin of Makka did. But Only Allah can guide them.
JunaidHasan

GERMANY
Posted - Monday, July 31, 2006  -  8:58 AM Reply with quote
Zulfi wrote:

quote:

JunaidHasan,
After admitting by saying, ‘FOUND THEM QUITE POWERFUL, LOGICALLY’ aren’t you agreeing, because of not leaving the false beliefs of your ancestors like the Mushrekin of Makka did?

Dear Sksamshirali,

The given postal address may be WRONG. If possible, first chat with this guy on the net. Then ask him to give his telephone number of NORWAY then again call him on that phone number. If the both voices (on the net and the number of Norway) are the same then only the given postal address might be correct otherwise NOT. So, to avoid falling the prey to any cleverness, the tricks and the sophistications, we must be careful.


Dear Zulfee:

Assalamo'alaikum.

Come on; what harm could it make if you post me your literature? I only wanted to understand your viewpoint fully because I found out, courtesy of this forum, that you have provided evidences from the Holy Qur’an in favour of your viewpoint. I do not agree with you, at this time, because I have my own evidences upon which I believe not only in the Sunnah but the Hadith of the Prophet (SAW) as well. Only after seeing your viewpoint in detail (in your literature from a to z), I’d be able to analyze whether your evidences are more powerful and logical or mine.

Not only Brother Shamsher’s logics are good but his way of presenting them is nice too (in his early posts) but, Brother Zulfee, I’m very sorry to say that your attitude has always disappointed me because it is against the Holy Qur’an. I do not want to further elaborate upon it but had you presented your sayings and viewpoints scholastically, peacefully and wisely, it’d have been far more easy for me to understand you like I am trying to understand Brother Shamsher.

Thank you.

Sincerely,

Junaid
Nauman

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, July 31, 2006  -  12:40 PM Reply with quote
As-Salaamu Alaikum Junaid Hasan.

Mr. Samsher Ali belives in Submitters. Their website is www.submission.org

As-Salaamu Alaikum Nonstoptaxi.

www.psychologytoday.com; a very nice website indeed.
There is another very good website www.healthyplace.com

Regards to both.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Monday, July 31, 2006  -  1:28 PM Reply with quote
Dear sister,

Quote:- Excuse me?! I guess you haven't read my reply to the ten questions of Zulfee. The greatest proof I gave was from verse 59 of Surah Nisaa. It's up to you if you don't believe in it.

Reply:- You have to give Qur’anic proof if you want to prove yourself right. Oh! Yes, Regarding verse 59 of Sura Nissa I have discussed fully the meaning of it with Qur’anic proof and logic. But who are illogical will never understand this. It is their problem not ours.

Quote:- And by the way, not replying to you doesn't mean I'm defeated. I'm just being discreet.

Reply:- Then why did you send this post? Ha….ha….. You yourself disclosed your weak point of your mind. People who believe HISLAM instead of ISLAM always follow fabricate hadith, sunnah (falsely attributed upon Muhammad) more than the Qur’an. This is not matter of any surprise.

I believe Islam so I believe only Qur’an as my only religious source.

Sister , if you are truthful then at first you should give any single reference from the Qur’an in support of your cherished hadith & sunnah(fabricated) and afterwards you should proceed. If not then don’t try to prove your point by the help of other fabricated source by hook or by crook. Please go and find your reference.

Peace
Samsher.
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, July 31, 2006  -  1:38 PM Reply with quote
Quote:
Please go and find your reference.

It's no use Brother; I've had it with you.
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, August 01, 2006  -  7:05 AM Reply with quote
quote:

I wonder why Ahadith are being called “a fabricated source”. This really is a baseless charge. The scholars of Hadith have done a tremendous job in distinguishing the true Ahadith from the fabricated ones. They have had used excellent set of laws in scrutinizing each of the Hadith that was ascribed to the Prophet (SAW). Even a number of books were written down on the life history of each narrator merely to check his or her truthfulness. Allah T’ala has entitled the Qur’an as Furqan – something that differentiates between wrong and right. Therefore, each Hadith that was ascribed to the Prophet (SAW) was checked in the light of the Holy Qur’an. No Hadith was accepted which contradicted either the Qur’an or Sunnah or established facts.

The point that people accept certain Ahadith and reject the others to back their sect is quite true. It is also true that people extensively use weak or fabricated Ahadith for preaching and solving religious conflicts. Such matters should be criticized but it doesn’t mean that we should separate ourselves from the science of Hadith. I mean, people even change the meaning of the Qur’an to suit their sect and other worldly matters; does it imply that we should turn our backs on the Qur’an itself? Not at all! If someone truly wants to scholastically benefit from the Hadith, it offers a treasure of wisdom and knowledge for the one. It even helps enhance the understanding of the Quranic directives as I mentioned earlier.

We also need to appreciate the fact that no record of the history has been scrutinized so intensely as the Hadith. We can be proud of the efforts being put for preserving this record in our literature. The state of each Hadith is so precisely measured that we know about almost every Hadith if it is excellent or good or weak or fabricated.

The fact that the Ahadith do not add to the content of the religion (but only explain the Qur’an and Sunnah) makes it very safe to utilize them as, on their basis, not even a single directive of the Qur’an or the practice of the Sunnah may be changed.



Perfect explanation! I totally approve. I hope Zulfee and sksamshirali also do (Inshaa'Allah).
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, August 01, 2006  -  9:56 AM Reply with quote
Salam,

Quote:- It's no use Brother; I've had it with you.


Reply:- It is nothing but your talltalk. If you have, then why do you feel fear to show your chreished reference to this forum?

Samsher
Zulfee

USA
Posted - Wednesday, August 02, 2006  -  2:14 AM Reply with quote
Junaid Hassan et al,

quote:

I wonder why Ahadith are being called “a fabricated source”. This really is a baseless charge.


Hadith attributed to Muhammad are the fabricated material and are never the source of Islam. The corrupt people basically created these Hadith many years after the death of the prophet Muhammad. One of the aims of those corrupt people was to adulterate the religion and to find the things and the interpretations of their own choice.

The corrupt people of today also have the gateway of Hadith to corrupt the religion and find the things of their own choice. They give Hadith much more importance than the Noble Quran. So you people are one of the corrupt people who believe in Hadith and do shirk with Allah. Everyone knows that the people doing shirk are never Muslims but disbelievers.

quote:

The scholars of Hadith have done a tremendous job in distinguishing the true Ahadith from the fabricated ones. They have had used excellent set of laws in scrutinizing each of the Hadith that was ascribed to the Prophet (SAW). Even a number of books were written down on the life history of each narrator merely to check his or her truthfulness.


They did a tremendous job to adulterate the religion and to find the things and the interpretations of their own choice.


quote:

Allah T’ala has entitled the Qur’an as Furqan – something that differentiates between wrong and right. Therefore, each Hadith that was ascribed to the Prophet (SAW) was checked in the light of the Holy Qur’an. No Hadith was accepted which contradicted either the Qur’an or Sunnah or established facts.


E.g. the concept of missed prayers is not in Quran but only in the hadith. So why do you and your team follow the hadiths explicitly contradicting Quran?

quote:

The point that people accept certain Ahadith and reject the others to back their sect is quite true. It is also true that people extensively use weak or fabricated Ahadith for preaching and solving religious conflicts.
.

Therefore I mentioned somewhere, ‘Those who don’t believe in the ‘Noble Quran’ and ‘One God’ but believe in the corrupt fabricated hadith, are not sincere with the hadith as well. If some hadith comes in the way of their intentions they call it un-authenticated by their own. If they don’t believe in the Noble Quran and totally insincere with their chosen fabricated source, ‘so then how they corrupt are!!’

quote:

I mean, people even change the meaning of the Qur’an to suit their sect and other worldly matters;


You and your team are changing the meaning of the Qur’an to suit their sect and other worldly matters.
Nowhere in Noble Quran is mentioned, obey Muhammad but it is only to obey the Rasool (messenger). Despite the clear commandment of God, the corrupt people are changing the meaning of Quran and hence obey Muhammad Not the Rasool (messenger) and it a serious dishonesty with God and Noble Quran.

quote:

If someone truly wants to scholastically benefit from the Hadith, it offers a treasure of wisdom and knowledge for the one. It even helps enhance the understanding of the Quranic directives as I mentioned earlier.


YOU ARE WRONG!!
How should someone truly scholastically benefit from the Hadith while they are not the source of Islam and many hadith contradict Quran?

quote:

We also need to appreciate the fact that no record of the history has been scrutinized so intensely as the Hadith. We can be proud of the efforts being put for preserving this record in our literature.


The aims of those corrupt people was to adulterate the religion and to find the things and the interpretations of their own choice. Therefore they have been scrutinized, stored and decorated. If they do not benefit the whims and the lust of the corrupt people, they (the corrupt people) may throw them into the sea.

quote:

The fact that the Ahadith do not add to the content of the religion (but only explain the Qur’an and Sunnah)


Are you contradicting with your own whim and the lust?
JunaidHasan

GERMANY
Posted - Wednesday, August 02, 2006  -  7:26 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Hadith attributed to Muhammad are the fabricated material and are never the source of Islam. The corrupt people basically created these Hadith many years after the death of the prophet Muhammad. One of the aims of those corrupt people was to adulterate the religion and to find the things and the interpretations of their own choice.


People created the false Ahadith to fulfill their own purposes but the scholars of Hadith developed two sciences to cope up with this. One is called “Ilm-ar-Rawayah” and the other “Ilm-ad-Dirayah”. The former scrutinizes the narrators of each of the Hadith for their truthfulness, understanding and memory etc. and the latter scrutinizes the text of each Hadith to see if it is in harmony with the Qur’an, Sunnah and the established facts.

To see all and sundry with the same eye is not understandable.

quote:

The corrupt people of today also have the gateway of Hadith to corrupt the religion and find the things of their own choice. They give Hadith much more importance than the Noble Quran. So you people are one of the corrupt people who believe in Hadith and do shirk with Allah. Everyone knows that the people doing shirk are never Muslims but disbelievers.


I see a severe mistake in implying that we are disbelievers. The corrupt people also corrupt the religion through the Holy Qur’an itself; they change its meanings to suit their purposes.

There is no question of giving more importance to the Hadith over the Qur’an as none of the authentic Ahadith contradicts with the Qur’an.

Corrupting the religion by means of Ahadith or giving them more importance over the Holy Qur’an or merely believing in the science of Hadith to acquire wisdom and religious knowledge out of it are three different matters. Does the fact that people change the meaning of the Holy Qur’an implies that the Qur’an is the gateway to corrupt the religion and everyone who believes in the Qur’an is a hypocrite? I am unable to understand this logic.

No one has a right to call the other person a polytheist or disbeliever even if the one sees the other person prostrating in front of an idol. It is because the one cannot reach inside the heart of the other person to see whether the other person is doing so out of ignorance or stubbornness.

quote:

They did a tremendous job to adulterate the religion and to find the things and the interpretations of their own choice.


The whole Ummah has been praising the characters and religious devoution of the people like Imam Malik, Imam Jafar Sadiq, Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim, Imam Tirmizi etc. (RA). Accusing such personalities of adulterating the religion, without any evidence, holds no worth.

quote:

E.g. the concept of missed prayers is not in Quran but only in the hadith. So why do you and your team follow the hadiths explicitly contradicting Quran?


Think for a while, if something is not present in the Qur’an, how can it contradict it?

quote:

Nowhere in Noble Quran is mentioned, obey Muhammad but it is only to obey the Rasool (messenger). Despite the clear commandment of God, the corrupt people are changing the meaning of Quran and hence obey Muhammad Not the Rasool (messenger) and it a serious dishonesty with God and Noble Quran.


The Qur’an commands us to follow the religion of Abraham (SAW). That is why we follow the religious traditions of the Prophet Abraham (SAW) that the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) revived in their true essence. These traditions are called “Sunnah” – the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) instituted them in the lives of his followers. These Sunan have not reached us through the Hadith but the practical consensus of each generation of the Ummah.

Why is it assumed that the Messenger (SAW) only gave us the Qur’an? He also conveyed the Sunan with Allah’s order. In addition to the Sunan, we also follow the uswa-e-hasana of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW). It is simply because he best understood the Quranic directives and nobody can carry out these directives in a better way save him.

quote:

YOU ARE WRONG!!
How should someone truly scholastically benefit from the Hadith while they are not the source of Islam and many hadith contradict Quran?


Present a Hadith which contradicts with the Qur’an.

quote:

The aims of those corrupt people was to adulterate the religion and to find the things and the interpretations of their own choice. Therefore they have been scrutinized, stored and decorated. If they do not benefit the whims and the lust of the corrupt people, they (the corrupt people) may throw them into the sea.


This is your own daydream. Please talk on the basis of the historical facts. If I start saying today that the Prophet Jesus (SAW) was a Satan who came down to astray the whole mankind, people will surely send me to a psychiatrist.

quote:

Are you contradicting with your own whim and the lust?


Please try to enhance your knowledge of the science of Hadith; without the proper understanding of a matter, one cannot productively criticize it.

Love and Peace,

J.


Edited by: JunaidHasan on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 7:32 AM
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, August 02, 2006  -  10:36 AM Reply with quote
Brother shirali, Salaam! First of all, thanks for calling me "sister". Secondly, regarding your statement, "I do not want to behave like an idol worshipper", I'll only say that you can't possibly be called an idol-worshipper if you believe in the Qur'an. If you were satisfied with the Qur'an, you would automatically believe in the Ahaadeeth. (I think Brother Junaid is doing a great job; in this forum, maybe he's the only one through whom Allah will make you guys understand if He wills. I don't have the courage to reply to you as I mentioned earlier. I leave it all to Allah.)
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, August 02, 2006  -  1:37 PM Reply with quote
Salam Nida_e-Khair,

Quote:- regarding your statement, "I do not want to behave like an idol worshipper", I'll only say that you can't possibly be called an idol-worshipper if you believe in the Qur'an.

Reply:- According to Qur'an those who follow another source besides Qur'an as their religious source of islam, are idolworshippers even Qur'an called them as disbelievers and I only meant to say this i.e. 'I don't want to be an idolworshipper'i.e. I don't want to follow any other source besides Qur'an as my religious source.

[39:29] GOD cites the example of a man who deals with disputing partners, compared to a man who deals with only one consistent source. Are they the same? Praise be to GOD; most of them do not know.

(5:44) ".....Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the disbelievers".

(5:45) "......Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the unjust".

(5:47) "......Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the wicked".

Quote:- If you were satisfied with the Qur'an, you would automatically believe in the Ahaadeeth.

Reply:- How? Do you Day-dream? Why do you attribute your whims on me? I never said that I believe in this garbage(ahadith).

Quote:- I think Brother Junaid is doing a great job; in this forum

Relpy:- You can think because you are addicted to gossip.

Quote:- maybe he's the only one through whom Allah will make you guys understand if He wills.

Reply:- Almighty Allah Himself commands in the Qur'an that we should follow only Qur'an as our religious source and we have to follow his command. So brother Almighty Allah will never try to make any one understand to follow these fabricated garbage(ahadith).

Oh! yes, Satan can try to do this as he has already done succesfully in yours case, but I assure you InShAllah, I will never listen to him.

Quote:-I don't have the courage to reply to you as I mentioned earlier.

Reply:- Thank God, You accepted your shortcomings once again.

[39:45] When GOD ALONE is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter shrink with aversion. But when others are mentioned beside Him, they become satisfied.

[17:46] We place shields around their minds, to prevent them from understanding it, and deafness in their ears. And when you preach your Lord, using the Quran alone, they run away in aversion.

Peace
Samsher
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Wednesday, August 02, 2006  -  4:01 PM Reply with quote
{{The discussion should end here for if the Qur’an is COMPLETE, and EASY and has DETAILS of everything that we need for Guidance, then there is no need to look at another book for Guidance. I must add here that people should be encouraged to talk with each other and share ideas - the problem occurs when individual's ideas are taken as sources of Guidance in ADDITION to the Qur’an. }}
dear brother,
Every muslim agrees and believes that Quran is complete and easy and contains everything we need for guidance.
1.
Below verses are about an incident of prophet’s life .If we want to know the details of this incident shouldn’t we go for some reference book,which is close to accuracy?
080.001
YUSUFALI: (The Prophet) frowned and turned away
080.002
YUSUFALI: Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).
080.003
YUSUFALI: But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow (in spiritual understanding)?-
{{I never said "we should not read hadith." In fact, we can study hadith books to get an approximate idea about the people and events of those times.}}
2.
The holy Quran is reached to our hands in 20th century through the same hands who carried the Ahadeeth.How can we judge their authenticity that they have mixed up in one book and not in the others.

3.say if I am agree to your views totally.Now I am to go for zuhr prayer

plz guide me on the followoing:
-shall i go to pray in the nearest mosque,where the Imam believes in ahadeeth.
-should i pray alone or in jamaa't
-how many rakat's do i pray
-how should i pray,means the method of pray
-shall I call(azaan)for the prayer
-what exactly should i read in my prayers.
-do you have any example in the past about the people having same belief's as yours

I am asking you as a learner to know more about the discussion in question.

May Allah forgive me if I am wrong

Edited by: raushan on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 4:46 PM

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