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sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, February 01, 2005  -  12:22 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Sksamsherali
Could you perhaps give me a summary of that long post because I struggle to even fully read through it all so I don’t know how I’ll find the time to respond. It’s a bit like throwing a million herrings – catching em will be difficult, no? I think that especially for a discussion such as this, it is important that we keep it in control so that it is actually a discussion rather than essay writing.
peace


Salam,

I did not write any essay. I only tried to give the reply of your questions. I have nothing to do if you don't have time to read the reply of your own asked questions.

However,I am once again asking you a simple question; 'could you please give me any reference(verse) from the Nobel Quran In support of Prophetic Ahadith and Sunnah OR can we take Prophetic Ahadith or Sunnah as religious sources of Islam besides the Nobel Qur'an? If your answere is affirmative, then please show me any single verse from the Nobel Qur'an in support of your answer?

6:114] Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.
[6:115] The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.
[6:116] If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of GOD. They follow only conjecture; they only guess.
[18:27] You shall recite what is revealed to you of your Lord's scripture. Nothing shall abrogate His words, and you shall not find any other source beside it.

Samsher, India.

Edited by: Ibrahim on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 9:16 AM
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, February 01, 2005  -  1:27 PM Reply with quote
quote:

hi samsher,
>>>>May I ask you a question? What do you mean by saying 'Muslim'? What will be the English word(translation) for the Arabic word 'Muslim'?
The question mark after the word "submitter" was meant to ask whether the people who claim to be submitters are really submitters to God or not.In my opinion,they are not truly submitters to God but rather submitters to Rashad Khalifah.
>>>May be you did not like Rashad Khalifa, but which he said, said only from the Quran. Some of his followers after his death distorted his views as distorted the views of Prophet Muhammad by some of his followers after his death.
It is not that I don't like Rashad Khalifah without any reason.It is his lies,his forgeries,his inconsistent claims that makes it evident that he was an imposter and that makes me dislike him.
You failed to answer my first question.Firstly,you claim that you follow only the Quran alone and all other sources are not preserved.Yet you pray 5 times and claim that the actions in the prayers are preserved.Aren't you contradicting?.Tell me where in the Quran the number of rakats of the prayer is mentioned?.I will make the matter more clear with a quick question.Do you believe that stoning the Jamrah is a ritual in Hajj?.If yes,please tell me where in the Quran,it is mentioned?.Remember that you believe no other sources other than the Quran.
>>>> I ask you 'what is the age of responsibility according to you or to your ahadis book?
The age of responsibility is the age when you reach mental maturity.I hope you have reached mental maturity.If not,please check up with a good physician and I honestly advise you not to discuss these topics[Quran and Sunnah etc] until you reach mental maturity.Look at the following verse from the quran,
"You shall test the orphans when they reach puberty. As soon as you find them mature enough, give them their property".[4:6 from Rashad Khalifa's Translation].
This is exactly the age of responsibility and it varies from individual to individual.
bye.


Salam,

It is not that I don't like Rashad Khalifah without any reason.It is his lies,his forgeries,his inconsistent claims that makes it evident that he was an imposter and that makes me dislike him.

>>>It is your opinion. Not everyone's.

You failed to answer my first question.Firstly,you claim that you follow only the Quran alone and all other sources are not preserved.Yet you pray 5 times and claim that the actions in the prayers are preserved.Aren't you contradicting?.Tell me where in the Quran the number of rakats of the prayer is mentioned?.I will make the matter more clear with a quick question.

>>> I think most probably you did not read my previous mail which I sent to you. Please at first read the same, then ask me questions.

Do you believe that stoning the Jamrah is a ritual in Hajj?

>>> Stoning the jamrah is not the ritual in Hajj because it is not mentioned in the Qur'an.

The age of responsibility is the age when you reach mental maturity..

>>> What is the age of maturity. Please see what Almighty Allah says;

[46:15] We enjoined the human being to honor his parents. His mother bore him arduously, gave birth to him arduously, and took intimate care of him for thirty months. When he reaches maturity, and reaches the age of forty, he should say, "My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do the righteous works that please You. Let my children be righteous as well. I have repented to You; I am a submitter.

This is exactly the age of responsibility and it varies from individual to individual.

>>> Then are you trying to say that the age of maturity is when a person reach the puberty! Are you more knowledgable than Almighty Allah?(May Allah forgive me). Please read;
[004.006]
YUSUFALI: Make trial of orphans until they reach the age of marriage; if then ye find sound judgment in them, release their property to them; but consume it not wastefully, nor in haste against their growing up. If the guardian is well-off, Let him claim no remuneration, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable. When ye release their property to them, take witnesses in their presence: But all-sufficient is Allah in taking account.

PICKTHAL: Prove orphans till they reach the marriageable age; then, if ye find them of sound judgment, deliver over unto them their fortune; and devour it not by squandering and in haste lest they should grow up Whoso (of the guardians) is rich, let him abstain generously (from taking of the property of orphans); and whoso is poor let him take thereof in reason (for his guardianship). And when ye deliver up their fortune unto orphans, have (the transaction) witnessed in their presence. Allah sufficeth as a Reckoner.

In the above mentioned verses and also RK's translation, the Almighty did not mention what is the age of maturity, but in 46:15, HE mentioned that age. Do you understand?

Samsher

Edited by: Ibrahim on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 9:17 AM
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, February 02, 2005  -  5:21 AM Reply with quote
Salam,

For further info. regarding Salat Prayer, please see;

AL-SALAT

(THE CONTACT PRAYER)

INTRODUCTION

What is the definition of Al-Salat (Contact Prayer) in the Quran? How should we observe our prayers and is the Salat practiced today by millions of Muslims in agreement with what the Quran dictates?

In accordance to 6:114 we must accept the Quran as the only source of law:

"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?"6:114

God asserts that the Quran is fully detailed and contains everything for our salvation:

"We did not leave anything out of this book." 6:38

"We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything." 16:89

"......He has revealed to you this book fully detailed." 6:114

In spite of these clear Quranic words, it is sad that most Muslims still claim that the Quran does not include everything and that the Quran alone is insufficient. They are arrogantly arguing against God just as God describes them in the verse:

"We have cited in the Quran every kind of example, but the human being is the most argumentative creature."18:54

They will say that the Quran speaks of the headlines only and that the details are to be found only in the hadith!

Note the word "everything" in 16:89 means all matters, big and small alike. The words "fully detailed" in 6:114 simply means that the Quran contains all the details. It is necessary here to explain exactly what is meant by saying that the Quran contains all the details. The followers of hadith claim that the hadith contains many details that are not to be found in the Quran. This is quite true, however the absence of these details from the Quran is not because the Quran is not fully detailed, but because these details were NEVER decreed by God. The Quran contains all the details that are sanctioned by God and for which we will be held accountable to. The followers of hadith have a wide collection of books which they highly cherish and which contain all sorts of ridiculous details to say the least. The following verse includes a mockery and a warning against such acts of idolatry:

"Do you have another book to uphold? In it, do you find anything you want? " 68:37-38

Consequently, and in accordance with 6:114 and other similar verses, all guidance will be derived from the Quran and nothing else.

Click on any of the following titles to see the details:

1- Importance of Salat (http://www.quran-islam.org/169.html)

Out of the five pillars of Islam we find that the word Salat is the most frequently mentioned of the five. The word Salat is mentioned a total of 67 times in the Quran.

2- Pre-Requisites of Salat (http://www.quran-islam.org/170.html)

These include the basic intention, facing the Sacred masjid and performing ablution.

3- Salat Positions (http://www.quran-islam.org/171.html)

The Quran speaks of three positions to be performed during Salat, these are standing, bowing and prostrating.

4- Salat Words (http://www.quran-islam.org/172.html)

The Salat is to be observed by uttering specific Quranic words.

5- Number of Daily Salat (http://www.quran-islam.org/173.html)

How many daily Salat are decreed by God in the Quran?

6- Salat Related Topics (http://www.quran-islam.org/174.html)

This section addresses numerous Salat related topics that are subject to old and new disputes.

Samsher.


Edited by: ibrahim on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 7:02 AM

Edited by: ibrahim on Friday, August 10, 2007 9:06 AM
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Monday, February 07, 2005  -  9:07 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Salams
But that does not answer my question. Does that?


Salam,

OK, You did not yet reply to my simple question "which book/books do you consider the God's witten book?"

Now I am trying here to give my reply to your asked question.

The proof that the Quran is the word of God is NOT because God says in it that it is His word, anyone can write a book and write in it (God says this is His book),
The proof that the Quran is the word of God is found in the scientific information in the Quran, this extensive information was not know to mankind when the Quran was revealed 14 centuries ago.

Samsher
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, February 08, 2005  -  11:47 AM Reply with quote
Salam,

Inshallah I shall answer all your questions and it will only take 10 to 15 minutes time to me. But at first you tell me, do you believe that The Qur'an is complete, fully detailed and perfect? What do you understand to say complete, fully detailed and perfect?

[2:189] They ask you about the phases of the moon! Say, "They provide a timing device for the people, and determine the time of Hajj."It is not righteous to beat around the bush; righteousness is attained by upholding the commandments and by being straightforward. You shall observe GOD, that you may succeed.
Samsher.


Edited by: ibrahim on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 7:57 AM
Tariq Hashmi

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, February 08, 2005  -  12:16 PM Reply with quote
The proof that the Quran is the word of God is found in the scientific information in the Quran, this extensive information was not know to mankind when the Quran was revealed 14 centuries ago
Thats good. When mankind could not understand what treasures of sceintific knowledge the Qur'an was abound in how could the direct addressees of the Qur'an know that what the Qur'an said was indeed correct. Rather it should be against the Qur'anic claim that it is clear book. What does clarity stand for if it was not understanable even to the Prophet himself.
Naina

KUWAIT
Posted - Wednesday, February 09, 2005  -  2:13 PM Reply with quote
Salam,

Inshallah I shall answer all your questions and it will only take 10 to 15 minutes time to me. But at first you tell me, do you believe that The Qur'an is complete, fully detailed and perfect? What do you understand to say complete, fully detailed and perfect?

[2:189] They ask you about the phases of the moon! Say, "They provide a timing device for the people, and determine the time of Hajj."It is not righteous to beat around the bush; righteousness is attained by upholding the commandments and by being straightforward. You shall observe GOD, that you may succeed.



I am not concerned about the amount of time you'll take to answer my questions.

I don't believe that all the religious directives of Islam are present in Quran and neither did the Quran claim so.As for the verses which you misinterpreted including the verse 2:189,I will insha Allah explain them.But I would like you to answer my questions first ,as I believe you need to understand some fundamentals before you would accept my explanations and that is only possible after you answer my questions.

bye.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, February 10, 2005  -  9:31 AM Reply with quote
***I don't believe that all the religious directives of Islam are present in Quran....

>>>This is too much. You don't believe that Quran is fully detailed,complete and perfect for the guidance of mankind!!! But Almighty Allah said otherwise in his Qur'an;

"We did not leave anything out of this book.” 6:38

”Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?” 6:114

”The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.” 6:115

”This is not fabricated ‘hadith’; this (Quran) confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a guidance and mercy for those who believe.” 12:111

We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance and mercy and good news for the submitters.” 16:89

6:155-157

“This (Quran) too is a blessed scripture that we have revealed; you shall follow it and lead a righteous life, that you may attain mercy.

Now you can no longer say, "The scripture was sent down to two groups before us (Jews and Christians), and we were unaware of their teachings."

Nor can you say, "If only a scripture could come down to us, we would be better guided than they. " NOW THERE HAS COME TO YOU A ‘BAYENAH’ (CLEAR PROOF) from your Lord and a beacon, and a mercy. Now, who is more evil than one who rejects these proofs from God, and disregards them? We will commit those who disregard our proofs to the worst retribution for their heedlessness.”

>>>and neither did the Quran claim so...

Sir/madam, You are living in a fools paradise. Please read the above and also the complete Qur'an from cover to cover.

Sorry sir/madam,as You don't believe that Qur'an is a complete guidance of mankind, I don't want to proceed in debate with you regarding Islam.

“We place shields over their hearts to prevent them from understanding it (the Quran), and deafness in their ears. And if you commemorate God in the Quran alone, they run away in aversion.” 17:46

Sir/madam, I request to you please leave the forum.

Salam & bye.

*n.b.- Here in India the name Naina stands for female person.So I don't know which sex you belong to, male or female and for this reason I told you as sir/madam. Please don't mind.


Edited by: ibrahim on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 8:07 AM
Tariq Hashmi

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, February 25, 2005  -  5:45 AM Reply with quote
thanks.
But i really do not think how a book can claim to be clear whereas some of its verses cannot be understood by the addressees for the facts it referred to would manifest centuries later.
If none including the Prophet [pbuh] could understand what the Quran says then why the Qur'an says that if it were from other than God they would have found great discrepencies. Do you God could claim this. When they cannot understand some parts of it or some facts referred to here they can say that whatever your Lord has said is not clear to us.
Mr. Shamsher i understand you have already said that the veracity fo the Quran is to be proved by the scientific facts it is replete with.

Edited by: ibrahim on Friday, November 17, 2006 6:50 AM
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Friday, February 25, 2005  -  10:33 AM Reply with quote
Salam,

I told you that I don't think Prophet Muhammad knew all the scientific information (contained in the Qur'an) which is to be proved by passing of the times.

The Qur'an says regarding the end of the world. If you don't agree with me then please tell me how did he explain when the world will be end?

In 54:1 says' [54:1] The Hour has come closer, and the moon has split.

How could you explain the above verse in light of Prophetic hadith. Remember the moon was split in 1969.

What are the meanings of A.L.M. in (2:1), A.L.M.S. in Sura 7, A.L.R. in Sura 10 etc..etc.. according to the Prophetic hadith?

I think the whole debate rest on only one question i.e. whether we follow only the Qur'an as a religious source of Islam or Prophetic hadith besides Qur'an? If we get the answer of this question the debate will automatically be come to an end.

In my opinion we should follow only the Qur'an and nothing but Qur'an as a religious source of Islam and in support of my said opinion I quoted many verses from the Nobel Quran in this debate.

Now, if you don't agree with me, then please show me any single verse from the Nobel Qur'an that we should follow man-made hadith besides the Qur'an as religious source of Islam.

Could you also tell me why we should not follow Thora, Injee besides Qur'an as religious source of Islam?

Samsher ali.


Edited by: ibrahim on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 8:13 AM
oosman

USA
Posted - Friday, February 25, 2005  -  7:30 PM Reply with quote
Why don't you read the important books of hadith first (all of them) and then tell me if you still want to throw them out because some of them are false? Would you throw out all the volumes of Encyclopedia Britanica just because the defintion of few things was wrong? Do you realize how much work has been done into compiling these books that you want to discard so quickly? Have some regard for the people who spent their lives working on these books.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, February 25, 2005  -  10:23 PM Reply with quote
thanks.
But i really do not think how a book can claim to be clear whereas some of its verses cannot be understood by the addressees for the facts it referred to would manifest centuries later.

Very good point. Adressess are the human race and there is no fixed time for them to understand all that is within the Quran. Just because some points are not understood at present or in the past it does not mean they will not become clear with the passage of time as our knowldge and understanding of our universe increases.
Just as we individual humans begin to understand any given subject better as we grow older. Then substitute the individual human being with the human race then it might help to grasp the point I am trying to make, although I fear not too well.

If none including the Prophet [pbuh] could understand what the Quran says then why the Qur'an says that if it were from other than God they would have found great discrepencies

Not understanding a point does not make it contradictory.

Why don't you read the important books of hadith first (all of them) and then tell me if you still want to throw them out because some of them are false? Would you throw out all the volumes of Encyclopedia Britanica just because the defintion of few things was wrong? Do you realize how much work has been done into compiling these books that you want to discard so quickly? Have some regard for the people who spent their lives working on these books.

I think even the sternest critic of Hadith books would agree that some of them have excellent points. But that does not mean thay are vlid.
Unfortunately books such as Encyclopedia Britanica are just simply books which are limited to our present knowldge.
Where as books of hadith are there to interpret what the last messanger of God has supposed to have said, done etc and hence are used by their followers, quite forcefully at times, as to how the entire muslim population should live, breath eat, drink etc.
If You accept that some Hadiths are false and contradict the Quran then the truth of all of them becomes doubtful i.e if you know someone has told certai untruths then you will be reluctant to accept their word on any issue that you are not sure about.
Hence if a Hadith confirms what is stated in the Quran then it begs the question what is the purpose of that particular hadith. If it brings new information which cannot be verified by the Quran then how can you be sure that it is correct.

Do you realize how much work has been done into compiling these books that you want to discard so quickly? Have some regard for the people who spent their lives working on these books.

Does this mean that if great deal of time spent on writing anti Islamic books you will not discard them and have regards for their authors.
The question is if the works of collected Hadiths are so important why did the Muslim community wait over 200yrs before trying to record them.
I know of no one who can recall information 100% accurately within few seconds of hearing it. Obviousouly the previous generations must have been made of sterner memory than today.


Edited by: ibrahim on Saturday, November 18, 2006 8:21 AM
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, March 01, 2005  -  10:16 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Why don't you read the important books of hadith first (all of them) and then tell me if you still want to throw them out because some of them are false? Would you throw out all the volumes of Encyclopedia Britanica just because the defintion of few things was wrong? Do you realize how much work has been done into compiling these books that you want to discard so quickly? Have some regard for the people who spent their lives working on these books.

Salam,

If I agree with you for the sake of argument, yet this does not mean that we should follow men-made hadith as religious sources of Islam besides the Nobel Qur'an.
If your opinion is otherwise then please show me any single verse from the Nobel Quran in support of your opinion.

Samsherali


Edited by: ibrahim on Saturday, November 18, 2006 9:30 AM
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, March 01, 2005  -  11:41 AM Reply with quote
quote:

thanks Perv 1.
But i really do not think how a book can claim to be clear whereas some of its verses cannot be understood by the addressees for the facts it referred to would manifest centuries later.
Very good point. Adressess are the human race and there is no fixed time for them to understand all that is within the Quran. Just because some points are not understood at present or in the past it does not mean they will not become clear with the passage of time as our knowldge and understanding of our universe increases.
Just as we individual humans begin to understand any given subject better as we grow older. Then substitute the individual human being with the human race then it might help to grasp the point I am trying to make, although I fear not too well.
If none including the Prophet [pbuh] could understand what the Quran says then why the Qur'an says that if it were from other than God they would have found great discrepencies
Not understanding a point does not make it contradictory.
Why don't you read the important books of hadith first (all of them) and then tell me if you still want to throw them out because some of them are false? Would you throw out all the volumes of Encyclopedia Britanica just because the defintion of few things was wrong? Do you realize how much work has been done into compiling these books that you want to discard so quickly? Have some regard for the people who spent their lives working on these books.
I think even the sternest critic of Hadith books would agree that some of them have excellent points. But that does not mean thay are vlid.
Unfortunately books such as Encyclopedia Britanica are just simply books which are limited to our present knowldge.
Where as books of hadith are there to interpret what the last messanger of God has supposed to have said, done etc and hence are used by their followers, quite forcefully at times, as to how the entire muslim population should live, breath eat, drink etc.
If You accept that some Hadiths are false and contradict the Quran then the truth of all of them becomes doubtful i.e if you know someone has told certai untruths then you will be reluctant to accept their word on any issue that you are not sure about.
Hence if a Hadith confirms what is stated in the Quran then it begs the question what is the purpose of that particular hadith. If it brings new information which cannot be verified by the Quran then how can you be sure that it is correct.
Do you realize how much work has been done into compiling these books that you want to discard so quickly? Have some regard for the people who spent their lives working on these books.
Does this mean that if great deal of time spent on writing anti Islamic books you will not discard them and have regards for their authors.
The question is if the works of collected Hadiths are so important why did the Muslim community wait over 200yrs before trying to record them.
I know of no one who can recall information 100% accurately within few seconds of hearing it. Obviousouly the previous generations must have been made of sterner memory than today.


Salam,

Sir,Your reply is Excellent. Thank you.

Samsher

Edited by: Ibrahim on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 9:29 AM
amnew

INDIA
Posted - Monday, March 07, 2005  -  1:23 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Very good point. Adressess are the human race and there is no fixed time for them to understand all that is within the Quran. Just because some points are not understood at present or in the past it does not mean they will not become clear with the passage of time as our knowldge and understanding of our universe increases.
Just as we individual humans begin to understand any given subject better as we grow older. Then substitute the individual human being with the human race then it might help to grasp the point I am trying to make, although I fear not too well.


I think you didn't fully understand Brother Tariq's question.Brother Tariq asked on what basis do we know that Quran is the word of God.Mr.Samsher replied that it is because of scientific information, which is present in the Quran and that is verified later that proves that it is God's book.The next question asked by Brother Tariq was that if the scientific information proves that Quran is the word of God,how did the previous generation believed in the Quran when they did not know anything about it.The question remains on what basis did[ or should]the previous generations believed Quran to be the word of God,when the scientific information in it is unfolded during later times?

Further,Mr.Samsher quoted a verse from the Quran to prove that it foretold moon-landing by human.The verse he quoted is
quote:

In 54:1 says' [54:1] The Hour has come closer, and the moon has split.
How could you explain the above verse in light of Prophetic hadith. Remember the moon was split in 1969.


Mr.Samsher writes that the moon was split in 1969.How can a person be sure that the above verse refer to moon-landing by man?.It can only be a conjecture.I wonder how a book can be proved to be the word of God just based on conjectures.
quote:

Does this mean that if great deal of time spent on writing anti Islamic books you will not discard them and have regards for their authors.
The question is if the works of collected Hadiths are so important why did the Muslim community wait over 200yrs before trying to record them.
I know of no one who can recall information 100% accurately within few seconds of hearing it. Obviousouly the previous generations must have been made of sterner memory than today.


The comparison you made between the work of Hadith and anti-islamic literatures is irrelevant.I suggest you to please register for the course "Understanding the Sunnah" in this website.That will insha Allah, help you to understand the difference between "Sunnah"[according to this website] and Hadith, and how the "Sunnah of the Prophet" is independant of Hadith.Hadith is an invaluable record about the last messenger of God.All the sources of religion are found in Quran and the Sunnah,which has come down to us through verbal and practical perpetuation of muslim generations.Since Hadith is not a source of religion,early muslim generation did not feel the need to record it.

Edited by: Ibrahim on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 9:32 AM
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Monday, March 07, 2005  -  11:34 PM Reply with quote
Thank you amnew. Point taken. However I did not intend to answer why the Quran is the word of God, but simply to respond to the statement below.
But i really do not think how a book can claim to be clear whereas some of its verses cannot be understood by the addressees for the facts it referred to would manifest centuries later.
I suggest you read my comment again to see if you can appreciate what I am trying to convey!

The comparison you made between the work of Hadith and anti-islamic literatures is irrelevant.I suggest you to please register for the course "Understanding the Sunnah" in this website.That will insha Allah, help you to understand the difference between "Sunnah"[according to this website] and Hadith, and how the "Sunnah of the Prophet" is independant of Hadith. Hadith is an invaluable record about the last messenger of God. All the sources of religion are found in Quran and the Sunnah,which has come down to us through verbal and practical perpetuation of muslim generations.Since Hadith is not a source of religion,early muslim generation did not feel the need to record it.

I must admit I am baffled by your above statement. I think you have completely misunderstood my point-which was that just because a great deal of time is spent on writing anything that itself does not lend it any credibilty. Whether the books of hadith are a invaluable collection or not was not the issue as you will recall my initial quote:-I think even the sternest critic of Hadith books would agree that some of them have excellent points. But that does not mean thay are valid.
It was simply to point out as you have stated that hadith cannot be relied upon as source of religion, but vast majority of muslims unfortunately do. Athough it would appear that you do not.

I would also simply ask you perhaps to sit down and make a list of good v damage that has resulted to Islam as result of introduction of hadith & then perhaps you can tell us how valueable, you feel, hadith have been to Islam.
Thank you but I am aware of difference between hadith and Sunnah and it has no relevance what-so-ever to the point I was trying to make.

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