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ibrahim

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, November 23, 2005  -  9:06 AM Reply with quote
Dear Brother Samsher,
Quote:- Waooo……lastly you agreed that your theory of FIVE REGULAR PRAYERS in a day is wrong. Sabash!
Well I've NOT agreed Even a Little bit w U & I've Not said that "the theory of FIVE REGULAR PRAYERS in a day is wrong". Plz NOTE that I Just said that ONLY for U I do not want to INSIST at the Moment on word FIVE regarding Regular Prayers.
Quote:- Tahajjad BiHi” means MEDITATE WITH IT(Qur’an)…….not ”in it”…… the words for “in it” in Arabic are Fi Hi …… but the words in 17.79 are Bi Hi ……tahajjad means MEDIDATE……… it is not a salat ……. THE WORD FOR SALAT IN THE QUR’AN IS SIMPLY ‘SALAT’.
Don’t try to corrupt the Qur’an brother and not to invent a salat, which is not authorized by God.

Well, at the moment I do NOT want to SAY some MORE on "Tahajjad BiHee or FeeHi" as it was my Supplimentary Argument. I want to insist that "tahajjad does NOT mean MEDIDATATION" & especially after the MENTIONING of regular PRAYERS (Salat) in 17:78 it's NOT Possible to take Meaning of Tahajjud OTHER than SALAT (had there been any other Meaning) according to "the PRINCIPLES of Language". I'm NOT Sure "HOW u people Understand Quran" if NOT according to "the PRINCIPLES of Language".
So same Advice 4 U too i.e. "Don’t try to corrupt the Qur’an"
Quote:- Plz Think upon the words "YOUR" in the Verse. it's addressing Prophet Only not US.
>>>What a logic!!!! Then do you believe that Almighty Allah had given two orders, one is for his messenger that he should observe/perform his salat in one way i.e. with maintaining moderate tone and another is for us that we should observe our salat in another way i.e. with maintaining mixed tone? Waooooooo…!
Well, STRANGE is your LOGIC. If Almighty Allah HIMSELF is Giving 2 orders; ----- 1st for His messenger that he should observe/perform his (Speical) Salat of Night (Tahajjud) with maintaining moderate tone and 2nd order for us ALL (including the Prophet) that we should observe our Salat with maintaining mixed tone ----- THEN what WE can DO other than to FOLLOW His orders.
Quote:-Do you have any proof in support of your opinion. Please show this from the Qur’an. Almighty Allah says that Qur’an is FULLY DETAILED, HE also says that HE did not leave anything out of This Book(Qur’an), but you are saying otherwise i.e. “Fully Detailed means here All those MINIMUM Details”!!! Which hadith should we believe brother? Yours or Almighty Allah’s?
[6:38] All the creatures on earth, and all the birds that fly with wings, are communities like you. WE DID NOT LEAVE ANYTHING OUT OF THIS BOOK. To their Lord, all these creatures will be summoned.

Well, Plz see its Previous Verse [6:37] & consider the words "And they said: 'why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord'?" & [6:38] is clearly showing that the Demanded SIGNs are Present in the Universe & Quran has Not Left Any SIGN too. Well IF We Follow "the PRINCIPLES of Language" & Take full Care of the CONTEXT, one cannot TAKE any OTHER meaning of [6:38]
Quote:- Well, 1st of All U shud at least Understand that to Me, at least, Men-Made Hadith & God-Given Sunnah are NOT same things & Hadith is NOT a Source of Islam & Can Never be whereas SUNNAH is.
>>>Where it is said in the Qur’an, brother that men-made sunnah is the religious source of islam besides The Nobel Qur’an? At first you should show at least one proof from the Qur’an in support of your opinion to all the viewers of this forum.
You refused all hadith to take as religious source of Islam because there is not even a single proof in the Qur’an in support of these men-made hdith, then with the same logic you should also discard men-made sunnah to take them as religious source of islam. But, you don’t do that rather you propagate this idea that ‘we should take men-made sunnah as religious sunnah’!!! WHY? Show proof from the Qur’an in support of your thinking.

You AGAIN r NOT ready Even 2 THINK 4 a While that WHY on earth I'm CONSISTANTLY differing between Hadith & Sunnah; 1st is Men-Made BUT 2nd is GOD-Given. If U'll NOT take My point then, I'm afraid, Our WHOLE discussion will END in SMOKE. so Plz, for God sake, If U r REALLY interested in Understanding My Point of View AT LEAST, then PLZ Take SUNNAH as I'm Taking it, AT LEAST in My Posts. At the Moment U r NOT doing SO Bcoz Whenever I say God-Given Sunnah, U change it to Men-Made Sunnah taken from Abu Huraira etc. WHEREAS no way I'm taking it Like that. That's why U r NOT able to understand that Why I refuse all hadith to take as religious source of Islam & Why I still INSIST that SUNNAH is a religious source of Islam & U'll remain in this Dilemma Unless & Untill U try to understand the Difference PRESENT in the Hadith & Sunnah. At least Try to understand that WHY the BOTH r NOT SAME in the Opinion of Whole Muslimm Ummah.
& I've said Earlier that in sha Allah I'll Give U More than one PROOF from the Qur’an in support of this opinion BUT 1st U shud become Able to Appriciate it & at the Moment U r NOT & also U r NOT understanding that My Logic is NOT same for Hadith & Sunnah.
Quote:- I told in this forum again & again that what the whole Ummah believe & do are not the subject of discussion here. The subject here is whether we should accept any outside source besides Qur’an as a religious source of Islam or not. Qur’an says that we should accept only IT as religious source of Islam and IT also says that majority always follow conjecture and conjecture is no substitute for the truth.
Well, Brother Here TOO u r again NOT even trying to understanding the REAL argument. OK leave the Whole Ummah & let's Make this CONFLICT between U & Me only.
I do Hope that U also Believe in that "The Quran was revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) 1426 yrs Ago." If Yes then Tell ME "HOW Quran has Reached in YOUR Hands?" My Pt. of View is that it has Reached "ME" thru the "TWATUR" (Continuty) & "IJMAA" (Consensus) of Muslim Ummah & with Quran the Practical Portion of Islam; the God-Given SUNNAH of the Prophet (pbuh) has Reached ME Exactly the SAME way, so there is NO reason 4 ME to Differ in the Both. Plz tell us YOUR Precise Pt. of View in This Regard & What U want say in REJECTING my Aurgumnt. HERE u'll HAVE to Leave What Quran says in your SUPPORT & u'll HAVE to TELL Me 1st that "FROM WHERE THIS QURAN HAS COME TO U"???
Quote:- I have told you again & again that The Qur’an is received from God and not from your Ijma, twatir…..etc. as you claimed. The hadith and sunna we received from people like Abu Huraira and other hadith fabricators, which came through your so called ijhma………... If you believe the words of Allah in the Qur’an and if you believe that Qur’an is sufficient for you, then you should not follow anything other than the Qur’an.
Wait a Minut Plz. Yes u r RIGHT "that The Qur’an is received from God" BUT tell me plz WHO has received This Qur’an from God? It's U or Muhammad (pbuh). If Muhammad (pbuh) then AGAIN comes my SAME Q that "HOW THIS QURAN HAS REACHED U"??? I repeat "REACHED U"???
& DON"T change My Words. I've NEVER claimed that Hadith has Come thru Ijma etc. I've said Repeatedly that Besides Quran only Sunnah has Come this Way & I'll CARRY ON saying that Just Bcoz it's a HISTORICAL FACT & only BLIND People Can DARE to DENY it.
Quote:- It's NOT Enough for a BOOK to be taken as God-Given JUST Bcoz that we have found WRITTEN in that Book that it's a WORD of God. & I hope U people Do NOT Receive this Quran from God DIRECTLY & It's NOT revealed Today to Mr. Rashd Khalifah OR to someone ELSE.
>>>This question by you in actual fact expose your idolatry. You claim that you believe the Qur’an because the Prophet Muhammad said so and people like Abu Huraira and other hadith fabricators that it is word of God!

Dear Brother I OPENLY accept My idolatry But then U shud Accept Yours TOO the SAME WAY. plz Tell me WHERE I've Claimed what U've said ABOVE. U r Delibrately or Due to Some Other UNKNOWN reasons again & again CHANGING my words. True Discussion DEAMNDs TRUE PRESENTATION of the OPPOSITE Argument. I've Described again Today What I claim, so plz, I beg, Read it CAREFULLY & then Give WHATEVER comment U want to Give on that.
>>>I amazed to know that in one side you said that you did not accept any hadith to take as source of islam, but in other side you accept mem-made sunnah as source of islam. How can you know that prophet Muhammad practiced this or that? Form Qur’an or from fabricated hadith e.g. You prayed Salat 5 times in a day. From where did you get this information? From hadith or from Qur’an? If your answer is that you got this information from your parents, which came through generation after generation, ijma, twatir………etc. etc. then I ask you what is/should be the criteria(furqan) by using which we can judge this information whether it is right or wrong?
Well, U'll Remain in AMUZEMENT as Long as U'll carry on describing Sunnah as Men-Made. Nevertheless Plz Note that "the criteria(furqan) by using which we can judge this information whether it is right or wrong" is the Consensus (Ijmaa) of Muslim Ummah thru which Quran & Sunnah BOTH has Reached us; One is God-Given Words & the Other is God-Given Practices.
>>>Everything (information) that comes from other than God i.e. your ijma, twatir…..etc. is full of contradictions according to the above verse. Moreover, Qur’an forbade us from blind following.
U r TOTALLY wrong my Brother. there is NO CANTRADICTION in the WORDS of Quran & U agree with it. NOW plz Note that "there is absolutely NO CONTRADICTION in the SUNNAH too. I can Even BET upon it Had it been not Haraam. BUT to Understand that U'll HAVE to Acknowledge the DIFFERENCE present in HADITH & SUNNAH.
>>>Sadly, you are relying on hadith to prove the Qur’an. You are a sad loser.
There's Nothing to LOSE or Even become SAD as NOWHERE I've Depended on Hadith to prove the Qur’an.
>>>Now after the discovery of the miracle we have even further evidence that the Qur’an is the word of God and this is one of the functions of the miracles to strengthen the faith of the believers who already believe.
Well it's VVV strange 4 ME that U do not believe in God-Given Sunnah & U believe in a MAN-MADE (not even Men-Made) so called Discovery That NOT Covers the Whole Quran Present b4 it. U have to Minus at least TWO verses to CLAIM that the Discovery is Correct. One Can at least say that How WEEK is that Miracle!!!
Brother this is STILL a Burning Q that "If NOT from the Ijma & Twatur" then "What's the PROOF w YOU that this Quran is God-Given"???
Quote:- We don’t require any historical proof to prove Almighty Allah’s claim. Almighty Allah says that He gave only Qur’an to Muhammad and this should be sufficient for all believers.
So at Last U too believe that Qur’an was Given to Muhammad (pbuh) So How it Had Come in ur hands???
Quote:- Now I ask you how these 19 Angels can do disturb the disbelievers, how these (no.19) can convince the Christians & Jews, how these can do strengthen the faith of the faithfull………. How can, Guardians of Hell, do all the things in this would after all we can’t see them(19-Angels) while living in this world?
Dear, Guardians of Hell ONLY Guards the HELL & Nothing Else. & as Only 19 Angels Do that, So it's ENOUGHF for The All Purposes Described in the Verse.

Regards

Edited by: ibrahim on Thursday, November 24, 2005 5:07 AM
Zulfee

USA
Posted - Thursday, November 24, 2005  -  1:03 AM Reply with quote
Quote: Qur’an is received from God and not from Ijmaa…… the hadith and sunna we received from people like Abu Huraira and other hadith fabricators. DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE TWO? If you believe the words of Allah in the Qur’an you should not follow anything other than the Qur’an. If you follow, then you are idol worshipper according to Qur’an and also in danger.

I agree with you.
ibrahim

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, November 24, 2005  -  5:04 AM Reply with quote
Brother Zulfee Plz try to understand at least WHAT I want to say. Plz Reconsider My Following Words & then Give your Reply. Thanks
"U people r RIGHT that The Qur’an is received from God BUT tell me plz WHO has received This Qur’an from God? It's U or Muhammad (pbuh). If Muhammad (pbuh) then AGAIN comes my SAME Q that "HOW THIS QURAN HAS REACHED U"??? I repeat "REACHED U"???
I've NEVER claimed that Hadith has Come thru Ijma etc. I've said Repeatedly that Besides Quran only Sunnah has Come this Way & I'll CARRY ON saying that Just Bcoz it's a HISTORICAL FACT & only BLIND People Can DARE to DENY it."
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, November 24, 2005  -  8:52 AM Reply with quote
Salam
Quote:- You did not answer my part of reply I ask you again.
There is no such statement is in yours quote page 20 Nov.10.2005 11:18 AM, regarding verses 9:128,9:129 that these verses are not part of Quran.
>>>I have already replied your question. As you don’t believe Code-19(Mathematical Miracle of the Qur’an) theory so you can never understand this.
The Mathematical Miracle of the Quran proved beyond doubt that every sura, verse, word, and letter in the Quran have been under the control and the protection of the Author of the Quran. This miracle proved itself as it singled out, the ONLY two verses that have been always suspicious to be an addition to the Quran, that is verses 9:128, 129. These two verses have been historically known to be the ONLY questionable verses in the collection of the Quran after the death of the Prophet Muhammed. It was not Dr. Khalifa who made these verses suspicious, nor was he aware that the Mathematical Miracle of the Quran will single them out. The Muslim scholars knew for over 1400 years that these two verses were suspicious and listed them as such in the Islamic history books. Many Muslims have never been aware that these two verses were suspicious and were surprised to know they are for the first time. They are even more surprised to know that the mathematical miracle proved these two verses to be a human addition. This discovery proved that God kept his promise from the minute the Quran was collected, but the human being was the one who wronged his soul. To understand this issue, I strongly recommend that you read the files about the two false verses . http://www.submission.org/tampering.html
Besides this how can God say in the Qur’an that 9:128-129 are false verses when the original Qur’an, God revealed to Muhammad, did not include 9:128-129? The original Sura 9 revealed by God contents only 127 verses so it is not logical for God to say inside the Qur’an that verses 128-129 of Sura 9 are false since they were never in the original Qur’an.

Samsher


Edited by: ibrahim on Friday, December 09, 2005 10:17 AM
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, November 24, 2005  -  9:09 AM Reply with quote
Salam,
Quote:- I do understand when Mr. Ijaz wrote about Quran’s Authenticity in these words; which you reject completely: It's Simple that If there is an ARGUMENT about a Scripture then the PROOF will Come from OUTSIDE.
But you said that we believe in Quran because it says so.
>>> Brother, you understood Mr. Ijaz’s words but perhaps did not understand my opinion which is as follows;
The proof that the Quran is the word of God is not God says in It that It is His word, anyone can write a book and write in it (God says this is his book). The proof that the Qur’an is the word of God is found in the scientific information in the Quran, this extensive information was not know to mankind when the Quran was revealed and now the Mathematical Miracle of the Qur’an also provide an absolute proof that the book is from God. However, the true believers will believe in the Qur’an even before the proof is given, this is because when they read the words of God they will know that they are from God (2:2-3, 19:58). So while as true believers believe in the Qur’an even without a proof, it can also be said that the scientific/mathematical contents provide the absolute proof to strengthen the faith of those who already believed. I hope you understand now.
Quote:- Let say someone brings you another Quran with some changes but keeping the words you mentioned; “THEY BELIEVE IN WHAT WAS REVEALED TO YOU, AND IN WHAT WAS REVEALED BEFORE YOU” and ”WHO BELIEVE IN THE UNSEEN”. And also the words 15:9 “We have without doubt sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)”
How would you distinguish which one is the real?
>>> Several times I have answered this question. Does not require to give any further explanation here.
How can you reply if any one ask this question to you as you asked me the above?
You can see many ancient documents, tablets and books in museums and special sections of libraries. They are preserved by human effort and technology for hundreds and even thousands of years. If the preservation of the Quran was similar to this "normal" and "ordinary" human affair, then, why should God emphasize Himself and give the impression that the preservation of the Quran is a "divine" and "unique" feature? It is not necessarily a divine merit for a book to be pre-served by its zealot followers. For instance, Bukhari is a document, which has been well preserved for approximately 12 centuries. Then what will be the difference between Quran’s preservation and preservation of Bukhari hadith?
So your or your team’s thinking that Qur’an reached us through Twatir, Ijma, is wrong. Quran preserved by God and it reached us according to the will of God not through men-made Twatir, Ijma…..etc. Once you say that Qur’an was preserved by God but then you say that Qur’an reached to us through twatir………etc. Do you think that God cannot take the responsibility of reaching the Qur’an to us (may Allah forgive me) except through men-made twatir……..ijma……..etc?
After we have seen the Satanic nature of hadith and sectarian jurisprudence produced by our great ancestors and respected ulama, how can you expect us to trust them as the preservers of the Quran?
What is your answer if one asks you the following question: You refer to the history (books) written by Muslims and claim that thousands of believers memorized the Quran that we have today. According to the history that you refer to, the Quran was not compiled in a book during the time of prophet Muhammad. Any claim by a Muslim (?) would be accepted if they could produce the second witness. In fact, some of the verses were accepted even without the second witness. There are hundreds of arguments regarding the Quran during the reign of the first four Caliphs. It is a historical fact (accepted by both Sunnis and Shiites) that Marwan burned the original Manuscript in order to stop the accelerating arguments over the Quran, which provides the best explanation for the disappearance of Muhammad’s manuscript. What if then, the corrupt leaders of the Umayyad Caliphate officially accepted and added verses 9.128-129 to the manuscripts since they were accepted by many people? What if the opponents were oppressed and forced to hide their opposition? What if Shiite’s under-ground claim regarding the distortion of the Quran is an exaggerated continuation of the early reaction against the original distortion?
If x million of them could agree on the authenticity of Bukhari, then it is possible that 2x million of them could agree on the authenticity of the Quran. If millions of Shiite could insert Ali’s name in the Azhan, then it is possible that millions of Muslims could insert Muhammad’s name in the Azhan. (Ironically, hadith books confirm this claim by narrating Azhan containing 19 words.) If millions of Christians can believe that their Bible is preserved by ignoring Nicene Conference and important textual problems, then it is possible that millions of Muslims could believe that their Quran is preserved by ignoring the early arguments, Marwan, and narrated textual conflicts. Obviously, there are differences in the degree, but not in the nature of the thing.
Now there are thousands of copies of the original Quran that do not contain 9.128-129 are circulated and read all around the world. Does this version of the Quran refute the divine promise in verse 15.9? If your answer will start, "No, the distortion made by a community of diverted people does not refute the verse, be-cause. . . . ", then our answer will also start, "No, the distortion made by idol worshipers after prophet Muhammad centuries ago does not refute the verse, be-cause. . . . " What is the difference between these two cases? If you resort to the number of years or the number of followers, then we resort to the number 19, which is a Zikra, a divine warning for human race. Additionally, we remind you of verse 5.100.
The validity of a negative statement or challenge (such as in verse 41.42) cannot be proved unless we witness the failure of attempts against it. It is a circular argument to say that it is preserved be-cause it claims so, since the claim of preservation also is under question. Similarly we cannot say that it is preserved because it is preserved. For instance, if I claim that no one can climb the walls of my castle, my challenge will not make sense until some people try and fail to do so. If the trials and failures of some people demonstrate that my castle’s walls have been protected by an impenetrable surface with virtually zero friction supported by high volt-age electricity and an automatic alarm system, then my challenge is proven.
An example of such proof is the word "Bastatan" in 7.69. The code 19, demonstrated that falsehood can never enter the Quran (please remember the parable of the gold ring that is also preserved from falsehood). If you look at the Quran in your hand you will see that the word "Bastatan" in verse 7.69 is misspelled with "Sad." We detected this minor printing error through the Quran’s mathematical code. When we studied the oldest available versions, for instance, the Tashkent Copy, we found that it is exactly the way that we had predicted according to the mathematical structure.
Besides, how can you answer the question regarding the authenticity of the very verse that claims the preservation. What if, after the dangerous arguments started soon after the death of prophet Muhammad, some zealots constructed or fabricated the verses 15.9 and 41.42, and it was well ac-accepted by pragmatist leaders to heal the social discord in their land? After all, there were no shortage of people who could produce Arabic statements in the name of God or the prophet.

Salam,
Samsher.


Edited by: ibrahim on Friday, December 09, 2005 10:19 AM
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, November 24, 2005  -  9:19 AM Reply with quote
As-Salaamu Alaikum Oosman,


Quote:- Mr. Samsher Ali happens to reject the Twatur. That is why I am interested in knowing his opinion on this issue.


>>>> What is Twatur brother? Please explain.

Quote:- We believe that the Quran is the same, on this principle of Twatur, that prophet (pbuh) left 1426 years ago.

>>> Hum……….. you believed the principle of Twatur but not believe on Almighty Allah!

May be you believed that but you can never prove your belief scientifically, if you don’t believe Mathematical Miracle of the Qur’an. If not, then please try. Moreover, do you really believe in qur’an? If yes, then why you don’t believe in 3:81, 37:3, 6:114-115, 17:110 etc..etc.?


Salam,
Samsher
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, November 24, 2005  -  11:48 AM Reply with quote
Salam,


Quote:-I've NEVER claimed that Hadith has Come thru Ijma etc. I've said Repeatedly that Besides Quran only Sunnah has Come this Way & I'll CARRY ON saying that Just Bcoz it's a HISTORICAL FACT & only BLIND People Can DARE to DENY it."

>>>>Repeatedly I told you that Qur’an was given by Almighty Allah & came through Prophet Muhammad, but Hadith & Sunnah came through the likes of Abu Huraira. Do you not understand?

How could you say that men-made sunnah came through Prophet Muhammad? Please give me a single reference from the Qur’an in support of your opinion. Remember, Almighty Allah forbade us to take any other book/source as religious source of Islam besides Qur’an.


Samsher
Nauman

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, November 24, 2005  -  3:59 PM Reply with quote
As-Salaamu Alaikum Samsher Ali,

I thank you for expressing your viewpoint regarding the Quran’s authenticity.

>> Quote: What is Twatur brother? Please explain.

Please keep in mind that I have understood your point of view regarding Tawatur.

Tawatur of Quran actually implies that since the times of the companions of the Prophet (pbuh) till the present times, the Quran has been transmitted from each generation, as a whole, to its subsequent generation.

What does this mean?
It means that the Quran has not been transmitted on the authority of one, two or a few individuals. On the contrary, in each of the generations, since the time of the companions of the Prophet (pbuh), the whole generation of the mainstream Muslims as a collectivity transmitted the Quran to its subsequent generation. This is not the case with the Ahadith.

I have a short question here.

Can you tell me what was actually sent down to Dr. Rashad Khilafa in term of Divine knowledge?
aijaz47

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, November 24, 2005  -  5:27 PM Reply with quote
Quote from your mail of Nov 24; "So your or your team’s thinking that Qur’an reached us through Twatir, Ijma, is wrong. Quran preserved by God and it reached us according to the will of God not through men-made Twatir, Ijma…..etc. Once you say that Qur’an was preserved by God but then you say that Qur’an reached to us through twatir………etc. Do you think that God cannot take the responsibility of reaching the Qur’an to us (may Allah forgive me) except through men-made twatir……..ijma……..etc?"

Dear Mr. Shamsher

You have a point! I agree with you, the Quran certainly reached us through the Will of God.

So we conclude:
1. The Quran reached us preserved through the Will of God and Surah 9 having 129 verses.
2. That the Quran reached us through the Will of God with Surah 9 having two additional verses which were not, as per your statement, part of the Quran.
3. That it was the Will of God that the Muslims should recite the Quran with Surah 9 having 129 verses.
4.It was the Will of God to deliberatly ignor the discripency and God Waited to See, but was disappointede to note that in almost 1400 years, not even a single person among all the Muslims was intelligent enough to break the code embedded in the Quran.
5. It was the Will of God that a person named Rashad Khalifa be born in the later half of the 20th century, with the revelation to break the code of 19, and save the humanity.


Finaly is not this the Will of God that the Surah 9 have 129 verses?
Regards.

Ijaz

Edited by: aijaz47 on Thursday, November 24, 2005 5:47 PM

Edited by: aijaz47 on Thursday, November 24, 2005 5:50 PM
Nauman

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, November 24, 2005  -  5:57 PM Reply with quote
As-Salaamu Alaikum Ijaz,

What I have presented here is the understanding of Mr. Samsher Ali.

>> Quote: 1. The Quran reached us preserved through the Will of God and Surah 9 having 129 verses.

His understanding is that it has been tampered by early generation. He said the following in his support:

There are hundreds of arguments regarding the Quran during the reign of the first four Caliphs. It is a historical fact (accepted by both Sunnis and Shiites) that Marwan burned the original Manuscript in order to stop the accelerating arguments over the Quran, which provides the best explanation for the disappearance of Muhammad’s manuscript. What if then, the corrupt leaders of the Umayyad Caliphate officially accepted and added verses 9.128-129 to the manuscripts since they were accepted by many people? What if the opponents were oppressed and forced to hide their opposition? What if Shiite’s under-ground claim regarding the distortion of the Quran is an exaggerated continuation of the early reaction against the original distortion?
If x million of them could agree on the authenticity of Bukhari, then it is possible that 2x million of them could agree on the authenticity of the Quran. If millions of Shiite could insert Ali’s name in the Azhan, then it is possible that millions of Muslims could insert Muhammad’s name in the Azhan. (Ironically, hadith books confirm this claim by narrating Azhan containing 19 words.) If millions of Christians can believe that their Bible is preserved by ignoring Nicene Conference and important textual problems, then it is possible that millions of Muslims could believe that their Quran is preserved by ignoring the early arguments, Marwan, and narrated textual conflicts. Obviously, there are differences in the degree, but not in the nature of the thing.

>> Quote: That is Quran reached us through the Will of God with Surah 9 having two additional verses which were not, as per your statement, part of the Quran.

His accepts this Quran as a tampered one.

>> Quote: That it was the Will of God that the Muslims should recite the Quran with Surah 9 having 129.

What I think is that, according to his understanding it was not the Will the way you have stated. Actually it was our misfortune that we have a tampered Quran that nobody knew before Dr. Rashad Khilafa pointed it out.

>> Quote: Are may be God was deliberatly waiting to see, but was disappointede to note that in almost 1400 years, not even a single person was intelligent enough to break the code embedded in the Quran.

That’s what he is saying; it was the will of God.

>> Quote: It was the Will of God that a person named Rashad Khalifa be born in the later half of the 20th century, with the revelation to break the code of 19, and save the humanity.

I think you have got the point.

If you visit the following link you will see how he is looking at the issue.

http://www.submission.org/Rashad-Khalifa.htm
aijaz47

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, November 24, 2005  -  6:22 PM Reply with quote
Dear Mr. Nauman

My questions were addressed to Mr. Shamsher. It would have been intresting to see his remarks.
He seems to reply what suits him and ignore what does not.
Regards.
Ijaz
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, December 01, 2005  -  11:28 AM Reply with quote
Salam brother,
Quote:- It means that the Quran has not been transmitted on the authority of one, two or a few individuals. On the contrary, in each of the generations, since the time of the companions of the Prophet (pbuh), the whole generation of the mainstream Muslims as a collectivity transmitted the Quran to its subsequent generation. This is not the case with the Ahadith.
My Answer:- Brother, actually verses 128 & 129 of Sura 9 were inserted to the Mos-Haf of the Qur’an depending on the words of one individual named Khuzaima al-Ansari. Please read;
Two men whose names figure prominently in the reports we will examine are Zaid ibn Thabit and Ubayy ibn Ka’ab. Both of these men were from Medina, and were Muhammad’s chief secretaries. They were primarily responsible for writing down the verses of the Qur’an as they were revealed. In his History, al-Tabari reports that Ubayy was the first to write for Muhammad in Medina (vol. 9, 147). Various sources indicate that Zaid ibn Thabit was quite young at the time of the Hijra--Muhammad’s emigration from Mecca to Medina in 622 CE—being only about 11. Despite his youth, Zaid’s intelligence and language abilities gained him a position as one of Muhammad’s most important secretaries. It was Zaid who was given the primary responsibility for collecting and organising the text of the Qur’an after Muhammad’s death (EI 1, viii, 1194b-1195a).
The first indication of the uniqueness of 9:128/129 appears in the story related by al-Bukhari about the collection of the Qur'an during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr. After describing how Abu Bakr and `Umar convinced him to collect the Qur'an, Zaid ibn Thabit says:
“So I pursued collecting the Qur'an from bare palm branches, thin, flat, white stones, and the hearts of men until I found the end of Surat al-Tawba with Abu Khuzaima al-Ansari. I did not find it with anyone other than him: Indeed a messenger has come to you from among yourselves. Your suffering is hard on him... to the conclusion of Bara'a” (al-Bukhari, Matn vol. 3, 225).
Please also go and read for details :- http://www.quran.org/9128.htm
Some people say that Prophetic(men-made) sunnah came exactly in the same way as Qur’an came to us!! But actually this is not the case.
Prophet Muhammad was the first to write down the Quran revealed to him and when he died , the whole Quran was completely written, although not in one book, but rather on pieces of woods, papers, palm leaves, bones…etc.
But, Prophet Muhammad did not write his sunna. Moreover, how could they(those people) know that Prophet Muhammad practised such & such e.g. how could they know that Prophet Muhammad observed 5 times daily salat? How could they know that they should mention Prophets Muhammad’s name in their regular ‘Azaan’ etc…etc..?
Almighty Allah gave only Qur’an to Prophet Muhammad and nothing else and Prophet Muhammad practised that Qur’an and nothing else and in that Qur’an, nowhere it is mentioned that we should observe 5 times daily salat, nowhere it is said that we should add Prophet Muhammad’s name in ‘Sahada’(Testimony), in Azaan, nowhere it is said that we should add some steps in our God given ‘Wudu’(ablution) etc…etc… Then how could they say with certainty that these are all Sunnah of Prophet or are the true Islam?
Brother, our CRITERIA should only be the Qur’an through which we can judge what information regarding religious guidance is true or false. Our criteria should not be the conjecture e.g. Twatur, Ijmaa, which have no reference in the whole Qur’an. This is my understanding brother. Hope that I have made my point clear.
Salam,
Samsher.


Edited by: ibrahim on Monday, December 12, 2005 8:35 AM
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, December 01, 2005  -  11:31 AM Reply with quote
Dear brother,
Quote:- You have a point! I agree with you, the Quran certainly reached us through the Will of God.
So we conclude:
1. The Quran reached us preserved through the Will of God and Surah 9 having 129 verses.
>>> Qur’an is preserved but the verses 128 & 129 of Sura 9 were not the part of Sura-9. Mathematical Miracle of the Qur’an proved that these were/are not part of the Qur’an. Moreover, I showed you that there are many differences between the existing copies of Qur’an and old copies e.g. Tashkent & Istanbul copies of Qur’an. Please go once again and read; http://www.submission.org/quran/protect.html http://www.submission.org/quran/warsh.html
2. That it was the Will of God that the Muslims should recite the Quran with Surah 9 having 129 verses.
>>> No brother, you are wrong. At first tell me what do you mean by saying Muslim. Are you submitter to the will of GOD? No. You believe another source saying hadith & sunnah besides Qur’an and according to the Qur’an you are not the submitter to the will of GOD. Muslims should recite the Qur’an but not as you think.
[18:27] You shall recite what is revealed to you of your Lord's scripture. Nothing shall abrogate His words, AND YOU SHALL NOT FIND ANY OTHER SOURCE BESIDE IT.
[5:44] “ ……… Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the DISBELIEVERS”.
[5:45] “……….. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the UNJUST”.
[5:47] “………… Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the WICKED”.
Quote:- It was the Will of God to deliberately ignore the discrepancy and God Waited to See, but was disappointed to note that in almost 1400 years, not even a single person among all the Muslims was intelligent enough to break the code embedded in the Quran.
It was the Will of God that a person named Rashad Khalifa be born in the later half of the 20th century, with the revelation to break the code of 19, and save the humanity.
>>> The answer of your question is in the following verse;
[3:179] GOD is not to leave the believers as you are, without distinguishing the bad from the good. NOR DOES GOD INFORM YOU OF THE FUTURE, BUT GOD BESTOWS SUCH KNOWLEDGE UPON WHOMEVER HE CHOOSES FROM AMONG HIS MESSENGERS. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. If you believe and lead a righteous life, you receive a great recompense.
Salam,
Samsher


Edited by: ibrahim on Monday, December 12, 2005 8:37 AM
ibrahim

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, December 02, 2005  -  7:01 AM Reply with quote
W Salaam Brother Samsher Ali

After Going thru ur WHOLE post I've Reached this CONCLUSION that 1st of ALL we shud Deside Between US only ONE point & that's Regards Transmission of Quran to U & ME. I hope that If we become Able to Settle this thing ONLY then our Discussion on OTHER issues will be Easy & Fruitful as well.

I do Hope that U agree with Me & U also Believe in that "The Quran was revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) 1426 yrs Ago." My Question is V Simple That Plz Tell ME In DETAIL about the PROCESS thru which "THIS Quran has Reached in YOUR Hands?" My Pt. of View is that it has Reached "ME" thru the "TWATUR" (Continuty) & "IJMAA" (Consensus) of Muslim Ummah.

I'm Sorry to Say that I've asked this Q many times in my Prev. Posts BUT U've NOT writtten EVEN a SINGLE WORD about the PROCESS of Transmission of Nobel Quran to U according to U people. U can't RUN AWAY by saying that "Twatur (Continuity) & Ijmaa(Consensus) of Muslam Ummah are Satan’s new trick to divert the attention of believers from only the Qur’an."

& Plz NOTE that If U do NOT describe HERE (in as Much DETAIL as U need) about the PROCESS of Transmission of Holy Quran THIS DISCUSSION will END here from My side Bcoz My all Other Aurguments r BASED on the Answer of This BURNING Question. So if U r Really Sincere in then Discussion then Plz GO AHEAD & Provide Us our DEAMNDED Details.

Regards
Hafiz Ibrahim

Edited by: ibrahim on Monday, December 12, 2005 8:39 AM
geek101

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, December 02, 2005  -  2:59 PM Reply with quote
salaam
after reading all of this thread, i would like to ask again, something which has been asked repeatedly, but which has never been answered:
Where in the Quran, does it say that we need something else?
I would also like to ask:
is it really logical to assume that God would give us this amazing Book and then make most of our religion dependent upon the writings of men that, lets face it, we dont know anything about.
Because, we dont know who Bukhari was. We dont.
We dont know who he was, what he was like, what (if anything) his agenda was....nothing. So how can you follow it like it was Gods words?
aisha
ibrahim

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, December 03, 2005  -  11:31 AM Reply with quote
W Salaam Dear Sister Aaisha

Well Well Well, It's really v v v strange 4 ME that You have Ask This Question Again & still U r saying that U've read ALL of this thread. Amazing

Nevertheless, Plz Note again that I've Promised that I'll tell People Like U that "Where Quran has said that we need something else" BUT only after I'll Get a Sufficient answer Of My Simple Q posted right b4 ur Post From U or From Mr. Samsher or anyone else.

Regarding ur 2nd Q I wud Like to ASK u That "is it really logical to say that Only Quran is Enough when God Himself has given His Prophet (pbuh) TWO things; Quran & Sunnah & as BOTH have Reached US Exactily the SAME WAY so IS IT LOGICAL to DIFFER in them??? That's My Q & That's My argument & I've NO ANSWER of it from People Like U till NOW.
& 4 God Sake Plz note that OUR Religion Depend Totally on ONLY & ONLY these TWO God-Given things; Quran & Sunnah & Nothing ELSE (Including Bukhari & ALL other Hadith Books Just Bcoz, as U've said too, these r the writings of men)
& U r RIGHT again That "how can we follow These Books like They r God's words? Surely the Hadith Books r NOT God's words BUT the Sunnah is God -Given as it's NOT DEPENDENT on these books BUT I can BET that U & Other People who think like U CANNOT Understood this v SIMPLE thing UNLESS & UNTILL u people get ready to think or EVEN assume that WHY I'm claiming again & again the SUNNAH & Hadith are Totally TWO Diffferent things. That's Why I'm standing w U people in saying that Islam is NOT dependent on Hadith EVEN in a SINGLE thing DESPITE Having STRONG difference on ur self-assumed Claim that Only Quran is Enough.
I DO hope that U'll at least Give a FULL TRY to understand My Point of View.
Hafiz Ibrahim

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