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usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, October 06, 2005  -  6:01 AM Reply with quote
Quote: - If one speaks/utters ones daily salat by maintaining in moderate tone then please tell me will it be right or wrong according to your logic?

>>> You follow only Quran and used your aqal and I follow Quran and Sunnah and used my aqal.

He (Allâh) is the One who raised up, among the unlettered, a Messenger from among themselves who recites the verses of Allâh, and makes them pure, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom. (62:2)

Our Lord, raise in their midst a messenger from among themselves who recites to them Your verses and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom and purifies them… (2:129)

See what are you missing in above verses by not following the Sunnah.

What a co-incident that in every part of world, 99% Muslims are following the same way to performing Salat as you told how we are doing and when all gathered in Kabah from the various parts of world, while performing Salat the rethum of salat never broke down.

Allah Hafiz
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, October 06, 2005  -  10:14 AM Reply with quote
Salam brother,

Quote:-This is a very serious claim. Can you give some referances?

>>> Which type of reference, brother, do you want? Please clarify. I have a copy of the same and I read it and accepted/agreed it.

Salam
Samsher
aijaz47

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, October 06, 2005  -  4:58 PM Reply with quote
Dear Mr. Shamsher

You saidand I quoteagain:
"Now there are thousands of copies of the original Quran that do not contain 9.128-129 are circulated and read all around the world. Does this version of the Quran refute the divine promise in verse 15.9?"

Then how would you explain the divine promise in verse 15.9; considering that the Quran read and agreed upon by Uma contain verses 9.128 and 9.129.

Regards.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Friday, October 07, 2005  -  9:12 AM Reply with quote
Salam brother,
Quote: - You follow only Quran and used your aqal and I follow Quran and Sunnah and used my aqal.
>>>> Then you agreed that you do not follow only Qur’an. You follow another source besides IT. Please see what is your position according to the Nobel Qur’an;
[28:50] If they fail to respond to you, then know that they follow only their own opinions. WHO IS FARTHER ASTRAY THAN THOSE WHO FOLLOW THEIR OWN OPINIONS, WITHOUT GUIDANCE FROM GOD? GOD does not guide such WICKED PEOPLE.
“………….Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the disbelievers”.(5:44).
“………....Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the unjust”.(5:45).
“……….. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the WICKED”.(5:47).
Quote:- He (Allâh) is the One who raised up, among the unlettered, a Messenger from among themselves who recites the verses of Allâh, and makes them pure, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom. (62:2)
Our Lord, raise in their midst a messenger from among themselves who recites to them Your verses and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom and purifies them… (2:129)
See what are you missing in above verses by not following the Sunnah.
>>> Brother, I am not missing anything here rather you. Please see once again;
As I said earlier that Muhammad was a teacher but that does not mean that he will set up his own teaching or interpretations in AN INDEPENDENT REFERENCE TO EXIST BESIDES THE QUR’AN. The messenger delivers the message of God (the Qur’an) and before he came, the people did not know the scripture, so in that respect he has brought to them the word of god and taught them what they did not know.
[6:51] AND PREACH WITH THIS (QURAN) to those who reverence the summoning before their Lord - they have none beside Him as a Lord and Master, nor an intercessor - that they may attain salvation.
Now, we all know for sure that the Messenger obeyed God one hundred percent. Therefore, when God Command the Messenger to preach with the Qur’an, do you think that the Messenger went out and started teaching people with his hadith instead? Do you think that the Messenger said “Look, I have been given the Qur’an but it is not enough, so I will give you something extra-my hadith”?
[7:52] We have given them a scripture that is fully detailed, with knowledge, guidance, and mercy for the people who believe.
The Sunni say that the book of Bukhari and other hadith books are legitimate teachings of the prophet. This is wrong.
To get the complete picture we must read all the relevant ayat and not just one.
In 55:1-2 God says that HE IS THE TEACHER OF THE QUR’AN, we don’t read words here saying that God and the messenger are teachers of the Qur’an.
In 75:18-19 God commands the messenger TO RECITE THE QUR’AN AS IT IS GIVEN TO HIM, and that it is God who will explain it.
And in 5:92 we are told that the ONLY duty of the messenger is TO DELIVER THE MESSAGE.
Generally traditionalists will manipulate any Quranic words to give their idol Muhammad the power of being a law maker………….etc. etc. Prophets advocated his people to do righteous acts, enjoins them from evil, prohibits them from bad things ………….etc. etc. all in accordance to what is given to him in the Qur’an by God, and nothing else.
God did not come down to communicate with the people in person, did He? God gave the Qur’an to Muhammad….and the Qur’an came out of Muhammad’s mouth, so Muhammad is commanded by God to do the above in accordance to the law given in the Qur’an and not in accordance to Muhammad’s own whims.
Quote:- What a co-incident that in every part of world, 99% Muslims are following the same way to performing Salat as you told how we are doing and when all gathered in Kabah from the various parts of world, while performing Salat the rethum of salat never broke down.
>>> Brother you are doing same mistakes again & again. I had told you earlier that Qur’an says we should not be worried about what the majority people do, rather we should be worried about what Qur’an says & Qur’an says that we should do act in accordance with IT. Also Qur’an says that majority people always follow conjecture and Qur’an forbid us to follow/obey the majority people.
[2:170] When they are told, "Follow what GOD has revealed herein," they say, "We follow only what we found our parents doing." What if their parents did not understand, and were not guided?
[2:171] The example of such disbelievers is that of parrots who repeat what they hear of sounds and calls, without understanding. Deaf, dumb, and blind; they cannot understand.
[6:116] If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of GOD. They follow only conjecture; they only guess.
[12:106] The majority of those who believe in GOD do not do so without committing idol worship.
[19:73] When our revelations are recited to them, clearly, those who disbelieve say to those who believe, "Which of us is more prosperous? Which of us is in the majority?"
[18:57] Who are more evil than those who are reminded of their Lord's proofs, then disregard them, without realizing what they are doing. Consequently, we place shields on their hearts to prevent them from understanding it (the Quran), and deafness in their ears. Thus, no matter what you do to guide them, they can never ever be guided.

Salam
Samsher


Edited by: ibrahim on Thursday, December 08, 2005 7:16 AM
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Friday, October 07, 2005  -  9:21 AM Reply with quote
Quote: Then how would you explain the divine promise in verse 15.9;

>>> I discussed this several times in this forum. No need here to discuss the same thing. Please read my earlier posts regarding the subject.

Samsher.

Edited by: ibrahim on Thursday, December 08, 2005 7:19 AM
aijaz47

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, October 08, 2005  -  8:06 PM Reply with quote
Dear Mr. Shamsher

Could you please guide me towards your earlier post where you discussed this subject?

Ijaz

Edited by: ibrahim on Thursday, December 08, 2005 7:20 AM
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Friday, October 14, 2005  -  9:21 AM Reply with quote
Salam brother,

Quote: Then how would you explain the divine promise in verse 15.9;

>>> Almighty Allah says that THE QUR’AN IS PRESEVED BY GOD IN MASTER TABLET(85:22), THE MOS-HAF IS THE HUMAN WRITTEN BOOK. ANYONE CAN TRY TO TAMPER WITH THE MOS-HAF BUT NO ONE CAN CHANGE THE QUR’AN.
[85:21] Indeed, it is a glorious Quran.
[85:22] In a preserved master tablet.

Its preservation has been proved to us by mathematical discoveries of the Qur’an but many could not under stand it. Since the revelation of the Qur’an until today there have been several attempts made to tamper with the Mos-haf. God told us in the Qur’an that the people will try to tamper with the Scripture so people think it is from God (3:78).
[3:78] Among them are those who twist their tongues to imitate the scripture, that you may think it is from the scripture, when it is not from the scripture, and they claim that it is from GOD, when it is not from GOD. Thus, they utter lies and attribute them to GOD, knowingly.

Please also read my earlier post on Monday, July 25, 2005.

Salam
Samsher

Edited by: ibrahim on Thursday, December 08, 2005 7:21 AM
aijaz47

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, October 17, 2005  -  7:46 PM Reply with quote
"THE MOS-HAF IS THE HUMAN WRITTEN BOOK. ANYONE CAN TRY TO TAMPER WITH THE MOS-HAF BUT NO ONE CAN CHANGE THE QUR’AN."

1.Kindly elaborate your above statement.

2. Verse(3:78) Refers to the Jews who used to temper with the Torah. So this is out of contex.

Regards.
Ijaz

Edited by: aijaz47 on Monday, October 17, 2005 7:56 PM
zantetsuken

USA
Posted - Wednesday, October 19, 2005  -  5:17 AM Reply with quote
quote:

"THE MOS-HAF IS THE HUMAN WRITTEN BOOK. ANYONE CAN TRY TO TAMPER WITH THE MOS-HAF BUT NO ONE CAN CHANGE THE QUR’AN."

1.Kindly elaborate your above statement.

2. Verse(3:78) Refers to the Jews who used to temper with the Torah. So this is out of contex.

Regards.
Ijaz

Edited by: aijaz47 on Monday, October 17, 2005 7:56 PM


salam brothers/sisters,

I believe Samsher is referring to this:
http://www.submission.org/tampering.html
http://www.submission.org/false-verses.html

I am currently between being a Sunni and believing Rashad Khalifah. I have a few questions for Sunnis that know of Rashad but don't believe him :

1-what do you say is the meaning of ALM letters? Are they to be unknown until the day of judgement?

2-Do you believe that 'Rasoul AlMithak' mentioned in the quran is going to come? What type of proof do you expect him to have? certain miracles to proove himself? Why aren't Rashad's proofs sufficient?

3-I don't remember exactly how they go, but what do you say of the hadith(not sure if it considered sunna) that says that if you listen to music with dreambeats, gold will be poured in your ears on the day of judgement? and the one that says you may beat your son when he turns 10 if he doesn't pray? I know if my dad would have hit me that wouldn't have helped, and the prayer wouldn't be whole-hearted imho.

peace,
Abdullah


Edited by: zantetsuken on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 5:19 AM
ibrahim

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, October 19, 2005  -  7:00 AM Reply with quote
w salaam Br. Abdullah

well answer of ur 1st q is that ALM & all other "HuRuF e MuQaTTa'aaT" r the Names of those Surahs in which they have Come. They r NOT UNKNOWN.

I'm Sorry Icudn't Understood ur 2nd Q. plz Explain it again & Give Ref of the Aayah plz. jazak a Allah

Well plz Note that Hadith is NOT sunnah. Sunnah is the Practicle part of Islam that we've received from the Prophet By the "Ijmaa' & Tawatur" of the Muslim Ummah The SAME WAY as we've Got the Other Source "Quran". So If that's Clear then plz NOTE this too that we NEED to RELATE every Hadith w Quran & Sunnah. If U r NOT fully Satisfied from ANY Hadith, U can Put it ASIDE without any Fear.

The Hadith U've mentioned CAN be Explained to U but I'm daring to Say that "Ignore them & All those Hadith that r Creating Some Probles for U" & plz Tell me NOW that WHAT r ur other Genuine Objections on Present (according to u Sunni) Islam?

I do Hope that If u really want to understand the Truth then you'll at least try to understand My point of View.

Plz Keep in Mind that I can Give U & Mr samsher Proofs of Sunnah from the Quran BUT plz 1st answer My only ONE simple Q & that is:

Why & How should I differentiate Between Quran & Sunnah (not Hadith) when I've received the BOTH from the SAME way i.e. through the "Ijmaa" & the "Tawaatur" of the Muslim Ummah?

I hope that U also Believe that the Quran on which U people INSIST to follow ONLY is NOW in your hands thru the Process Described ABOVE. If Not then plz 1st Clear this point. Thanks

Regards
Hafiz Ibrahim
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, October 19, 2005  -  7:56 AM Reply with quote
Quote:- "THE MOS-HAF IS THE HUMAN WRITTEN BOOK. ANYONE CAN TRY TO TAMPER WITH THE MOS-HAF BUT NO ONE CAN CHANGE THE QUR’AN."
1.Kindly elaborate your above statement.
>>> I have already elaborated this. The present Qur’an is Mos-haf and two verses added in IT i.e. 9:128 & 129. How? I have also elaborated this and discovery of Code-19 of the Qur’an proved this. Now it is your choice whether you accept it or reject it.
Quote:- 2. Verse(3:78) Refers to the Jews who used to temper with the Torah. So this is out of contex.
>>> No brother it does not say only to the Jews to tamper with the Torah. Please read ;
[3:75] SOME FOLLOWERS OF THE SCRIPTURE can be trusted with a whole lot, and they will give it back to you. Others among them cannot be trusted with a single dinar; they will not repay you unless you keep after them. That is because they say, "We do not have to be honest when dealing with the gentiles!" Thus, they attribute lies to GOD, knowingly.
Now Muslims are also called FOLLOWERS OF THE SCRIPTURE. Now please see the below;
[3:76] Indeed, THOSE WHO fulfill their obligations and lead a righteous life, GOD loves the righteous.
[3:77] AS FOR THOSE WHO trade away GOD's covenant, and their obligations, for a cheap price, they receive no share in the Hereafter. GOD will not speak to them, nor look at them, on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them. They have incurred a painful retribution.
[3:78] AMONG THEM ARE THOSE WHO TWIST THEIR TONGUES to imitate the scripture, that you may think it is from the scripture, when it is not from the scripture, and they claim that it is from GOD, when it is not from GOD. Thus, they utter lies and attribute them to GOD, knowingly.
So brother how could you conclude the verse 3:78 says about only Jews people?

Salam
Samsher Ali.


Edited by: ibrahim on Thursday, December 08, 2005 7:29 AM
aijaz47

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, October 19, 2005  -  8:25 PM Reply with quote
Dear Mr. Shamsher

You stated that the present Quran is a Mohsaf ( a human written book, as per your statement) then where is the Quran you are refering to?

Regards.
Ijaz

Edited by: aijaz47 on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:32 PM
aijaz47

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, October 19, 2005  -  8:41 PM Reply with quote
Dear Mr. Shamsher

We have come to a point where you need to sort out the differance between the Moshaf, the present Quran and the Quran that can not be altered.

Regards.
Ijaz
aijaz47

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, October 19, 2005  -  9:05 PM Reply with quote
Al Anam Verse 7: And even if We had sent down unto you (O Muhammad ) a Message written on paper so that they could touch it with their hands, the disbelievers would have said: "This is nothing but obvious magic!"


Al Anam Verse 20: Those to whom We have given the Book know this as they know their own sons. Those who have lost their own souls refuse therefore to believe.
zantetsuken

USA
Posted - Thursday, October 20, 2005  -  5:41 AM Reply with quote
quote:

w salaam Br. Abdullah
well answer of ur 1st q is that ALM & all other "HuRuF e MuQaTTa'aaT" r the Names of those Surahs in which they have Come. They r NOT UNKNOWN.
I'm Sorry Icudn't Understood ur 2nd Q. plz Explain it again & Give Ref of the Aayah plz. jazak a Allah
Well plz Note that Hadith is NOT sunnah. Sunnah is the Practicle part of Islam that we've received from the Prophet By the "Ijmaa' & Tawatur" of the Muslim Ummah The SAME WAY as we've Got the Other Source "Quran". So If that's Clear then plz NOTE this too that we NEED to RELATE every Hadith w Quran & Sunnah. If U r NOT fully Satisfied from ANY Hadith, U can Put it ASIDE without any Fear.
The Hadith U've mentioned CAN be Explained to U but I'm daring to Say that "Ignore them & All those Hadith that r Creating Some Probles for U" & plz Tell me NOW that WHAT r ur other Genuine Objections on Present (according to u Sunni) Islam?
I do Hope that If u really want to understand the Truth then you'll at least try to understand My point of View.
Plz Keep in Mind that I can Give U & Mr samsher Proofs of Sunnah from the Quran BUT plz 1st answer My only ONE simple Q & that is:
Why & How should I differentiate Between Quran & Sunnah (not Hadith) when I've received the BOTH from the SAME way i.e. through the "Ijmaa" & the "Tawaatur" of the Muslim Ummah?
I hope that U also Believe that the Quran on which U people INSIST to follow ONLY is NOW in your hands thru the Process Described ABOVE. If Not then plz 1st Clear this point. Thanks
Regards
Hafiz Ibrahim


Thanks for your reply,
I haven't studied hadith/sunnah since I was in Highschool in Saudi. Ijmaa is 'collecting' right? I forgot what tawaatur is. So you think the only purpose of those letters is to name the sura?
You say that we got both(quran&sunna) the same way, but I think someone could argue otherwise. If sunna is so important,why didn't Mohammed write it down himself or tell someone to write it down? They aren't direct words of Gabriel like the quran, and weren't collected until 200 years after his death. There is some wisdom in them no doubt, but from what I've seen too many people abuse it and form new laws over time. The effects of this abuse is I think the decline in the Middle eastern society who adhere sometimes to a certain interpretation of law over morality. The first few centuries after Islam came, muslims formed an advanced nation, so what happened now? What went wrong? The sunna seems too eerily similar to the chrisitian apostle case where the 'supposed' words of jesus and the apostles are equal to God's words, but to a lesser extent.
I have to say I still dont understand entirely the differences you stress btwn hadith and sunna. so hadith is in 'hadith' books, and sunna is in 'touheed' books? what about 'fiqh' books, is that a mixture of the two? I
If you think quran and sunna should be together, then what do you say of this aya?
"When you read the Quran, we place between you and those who do not believe in the Hereafter an invisible barrier. And we place shields on their hearts, to prevent them from understanding Quran, and deafness in their ears. Consequently, when you preach your Lord IN THE QURAN ALONE they run away in aversion." (17:45,46)
As for your question about rasoul almithak, this link has some info about 'messenger of the covenant' in english:
http://www.submission.org/messenger/reflections.html
this website: www.submission.org seems to be entirely dedicated to spreading Rashad's message if you want to hear more of his believers' views.

and to aijaz, the 'complete' quran that shamser is referring to is the one without those two supposed false ayas, and small little changes in some 'harakat' that seem to be backed up with very accurate historical reference,namely the original golden quran, and happen to coincide with the 'mathematical miracle' of the quran.
As I said earlier, I'm not completely on one side or the other, and am trying to verify and examine each side as much as I can. But I have to say that so far I'm leaning towards believing Rashad. The big thing stopping me is the reminder that SO MANY muslims around the world haven't even heard of him, so how can it be their fault? But then the Rashad believer's remind me that their fate is known only to God(taken from an aya about the 'jahileen' I think), because supposedly they haven't recieved the entire scripture.
I'm trying to be as open mindeded as possible. hearing new things can be uncomfortable, and can even seem miserable at first because it disagrees with alot that you've been taught, but I think its out duty to study each side as much as we can. Me for example I haven't even been able to study in school that well because this is all I've been thinking about. sorry for the long post.

May Allah guide us all.
Abdullah


Edited by: ibrahim on Thursday, December 08, 2005 7:34 AM
oosman

USA
Posted - Thursday, October 20, 2005  -  8:12 PM Reply with quote
I can give you simple logical proof that Rashad Khalifah's followers' statements that Quran is corrupted with 2 extra verses is contradictory.

From verse 78 in Sura Waqia and other verses we know that the Quran is in Lauh-i-Mahfooz - a kind of a lock, and so it cannot be changed. This is Allah's gurantee to us, the Quran will not be changed.

Rashad Khalifah's followers' believe in the rest of Quran besides the two verses they reject - and the part they believe in includes the verses that say that Quran cannot be changed.

So they are contradicting themselves. If they say two verses were added, then that contradicts the claim in the other parts of the Quran they believe in that Quran cannot be changed!

If you believe them that the Quran was changed, then you will have to remove other verses also that claim Quran is in a lock.

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