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sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, November 08, 2005  -  12:05 PM Reply with quote
Salam,

No brother your question has no basis.

I had earlier told you that the Qur’an is received from God and not from Ijmaa…… the hadith and sunna we received from people like Abu Huraira and other hadith fabricators. DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE TWO? If you believe the words of Allah in the Qur’an you should not follow anything other than the Qur’an. If you follow, then you are idol worshipper according to Qur’an and also in danger.
[15:90] We will deal with the dividers.
[15:91] They accept the Quran only partially.
[15:92] By your Lord, we will question them all,
[15:93] about everything they have done.
[15:94] Therefore, carry out the orders given to you, and disregard the idol worshipers.
[15:95] We will spare you the mockers,
[15:96] who set up another god beside GOD. They will surely find out.
[15:97] We know full well that you may be annoyed by their utterances.
[17:46] We place shields around their minds, to prevent them from understanding it, and deafness in their ears. And when you preach your Lord, using the Quran alone, they run away in aversion.

And also read http://www.quran-islam.org/95.html

Samsher

Edited by: ibrahim on Thursday, December 08, 2005 8:11 AM
aijaz47

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, November 08, 2005  -  6:07 PM Reply with quote
quote:

actually mr shamsher and the rest of us are even in disagreement about the quran. He says there are some changes in the quran. Since we don't believe in the same quran, we need to start it at that level. sunnah/hadith discussion can come later


I agree with Mr. Oosman.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, November 09, 2005  -  9:08 PM Reply with quote
salaam
quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
actually mr shamsher and the rest of us are even in disagreement about the quran. He says there are some changes in the quran. Since we don't believe in the same quran, we need to start it at that level. sunnah/hadith discussion can come later

I dont necessary disagree with your sentiment but the problem is the discussion is diversifyong. Would it not make sense to stick to the original ponit.
I just wish clarification from Ibrahim that if he rejects hadith as no basis from the Quran then what Quranic basis are there for the sunnah.
My question of doubble standards was simply that you cannot use the Quran as the only acceptable source when it suits you and ignore the same principle when it goes against your point
salaam
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, November 10, 2005  -  10:11 AM Reply with quote
Dear skysamsherali
Quote:-Qur’an was written Mathematically by Almighty Allah. It is a NUMERICAL STRUCTURED BOOK. So it is not man-made. It was discovered only in 1974, but that does not mean that it is man-made theory. It has been existed since the first day of Quran’s revelation.

>>> The Mathematical Miracle of the Qur’an which you are reffering is not found in Quran, its a man made calculations.Its not part of Quran.There no such thing exist in Quran.You are not standing with yours own saying that we should follow only Quran,very said.

Qoute:-If I say “Colombus discovered America”. What does this mean? Does it mean that Colombus made America? It means America was in its proper place from long ago and Colombus discovered that. Similarly Rashad Khalifa discovered Mathematical Miracle of the Qur’an, which is existed in the Qur’an since long( since its first revelation).

>>> I know that,Colombus claim could be verified by visting America at that time and now every knows about Ameraca.But if he was lying, so it make not much diffrence to any one.Quran is for the Hidaya for menkind and according to yours theory(not mine) one should not reffer any thing beside Quran. If you think there is some Mathematical Miracle of the Qur’an, in Quran, so it must proved with Quran only not with the help of man made calculations, you just have to give Sura and verse nos. only from where the man made calculations come in between?.If you can not do that, so please stop balming others for following the Sunnah and hadith.Because you also blieve in the man made stuff to understand the Quran.

Allah Hafiz
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, November 10, 2005  -  10:26 AM Reply with quote
Salam,

Quote:- A.L.M. & all other “Huroof e Muqatta’aat” are only & only the names of those Surahs & serve No other purpose.

>>> No brother you are wrong. Please see the followings;

IT WILL NOT REMAIN HIDDEN (20:15)
Verse 15 of Sura 20 informs us that the end of the world will be revealed by God before the end of the world:
"The Hour (End of the World) is surely coming, I will keep it almost hidden. For each soul must be paid for its works." 20:15
Verse 87 in Sura 15, gives the time for that event:
"We have given you the seven pairs and the Great Quran" 15:87
The seven pairs are the 14 Quranic initials. The total gematrical value of these profound pillars of the Quranic's miracle pinpoints the year of the end of the world. It is noteworthy that Verse 85 of Sura 15 states:
" We did not create the heavens and the earth, and everything between them, except for a specific purpose. ...The end of the world will surely come to pass."
The next verse, 15-86, tells us that God is the Creator of this world, and, of course, He knows when it will end. The following verse, 15:87, tells us when the world will end.
"We have given you the seven pairs and the Great Quran" 15:87
Quranic Initial Gematrical Value
1 Q 100
2 N 50
3 S (Saad) 90
4 H.M. 48
5 Y.S 70
6 T.H. 14
7 T.S. 69
8 A.L.M. 71
9 A.L.R. 231
10 T.S.M. 109
11 'A.S.Q. 230
12 A.L.M.S. 161
13 A.L.M.R. 271
14 K.H.Y. 'A. S 195
1709

The gematrical values of "The Seven Pairs" of Quranic Initials total 1709. According to 15:87, the world will survive for 1709 lunar years from the time this prophecy is stated in the Quran. This means that the world will end in the year 1710 AH.
This number is a multiple of 19 1710 = 19 x 90.
The unveiling of this information took place in the year 1400 AH, 309 years before the prophesied end of the world (1709-1400 = 309). The number 309 is a Quranic number (18:25), and is connected with the end of the world (18:21). The peculiar way of writing 309 in 18:25, "Three hundred years, increased by nine", indicates that the 309 are lunar years. The difference between 300 solar years and 300 lunar years is 9 years.
The year of this discovery, 1400 AH, coincided with 1980 AD, and 1980 plus 300 solar years is 2280, also a multiple of 19, (19 x 120). Thus the world ends in 1710 AH, (19 x 90), which coincides with 2280 AD, 19x120.
For the disbelievers who do not accept these powerful Quranic proofs, the end of the world will come suddenly (6:31, 44, 47; 7:95, 187; 12:107; 21:40, 22:55; 26:202; 29:53, 39:55, 43:66; and 47:18).
Another indication given in the Quran as a code for unveiling the end of the world is derived from the following verse:
"He (Jesus) is to serve as a marker for knowing the end of the world so that you can no longer harbour any doubt about it" 43:61
The birth of Jesus set as a marker for the end of the world
1- We know that between the birth of Jesus and the birth of Muhammad there is 570 years. 570 = 19 x 30
The numbers 19 and 30 are very significant within the miracle of the Quran. We know that the code of the Quran 19 is mentioned in verse 30 (Sura 74).
2- This number of years between the birth of Jesus and the birth of Muhammad, which is 570, confirms the calculations of the end of the world.
The world will end in the year 2280 A.D. , which corresponds to the year 1710 A.H. Both 2280 and 1710 ( which are multiples of 19 ) are also multiples of 570
2280 = 570 x 4 1710 = 570 x 3
3- The number of years between the birth of Jesus and Muhammad (570) is the same as the number of years between the end of the world in Solar calendar (2280) which is connected to the birth of Jesus, and the end of the world in Islamic Lunar calendar (1710) which is connected to the hijra (immigration to Medina) of Muhammad (and not his birth).
birth of Jesus (0) - Birth of Muhammed (570) = 570 years
End of world A.D (2280) - end of world A.H. (1710) = 570 years
--------------------------
While Hadith is forbidden as a source of religious teachings, it can be a useful source of history. We can derive a lot of information about historical events and local customs and traditions during the early centuries of Islam. The books of Hadith indicate that the Quranic Initials were believed to determine the life span of the Muslim Ummah. The classic exegesis by Al-Baydaawy cites the following historical event as a possible explanation of the Quranic Initials. The same event is detailed in Al-Suyooty's ITQAAN, First Printing, 1318 AH, Vol 2, Page 10:
The Jews of Medina went to the Prophet and said, "Your Quran is initialed with A.L.M., and these Initials determine the life span of your religion. Since 'A' is 1, 'L' is 30, and 'M' is 40, this means that your religion will survive only 71 years." Muhammad said, "We also have A.L.M.S." They said, "The 'A' is 1, the 'L' is 30, the 'M' is 40, and the 'S' is 90. This adds up to 161. Do you have anything else?" The Prophet said, "Yes, A.L.M.R." They said, "This is longer and heavier; the 'A' is 1, 'L' is 30, 'M' is 40, and 'R' if 200, making the total 271." They finally gave up, saying, "We do not know how many of these Initials he was given!" (Al-Suyuty's Famous Reference ITQAAN)
Although this narration is well known, many scholars have been reluctant to accept the unmistakable connection between the Quranic Initials and the end of the world. They could not being themselves to deal with this subject for the simple reason that the calculation makes the end of the world, and judgment, a reality.

Samsher Ali
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, November 10, 2005  -  11:00 AM Reply with quote
Salam,
Brother Ibrahim, regarding your comment on music please go to http://www.inter-islam.org/Prohibitions/Mansy_music.htm#Haram

and read here it is said that music is haram!

Samsher
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, November 10, 2005  -  11:18 AM Reply with quote
Quote: The Mathematical Miracle of the Qur’an which you are reffering is not found in Quran, its a man made calculations.Its not part of Quran.There no such thing exist in Quran.You are not standing with yours own saying that we should follow only Quran,very said.
>>> Yes it is found in the Qur'an and disbelievers can't see it.
[74:21] He looked.
[74:22] He frowned and whined.
[74:23] Then he turned away arrogantly.
[74:24] He said, "This is but clever magic!
[74:25] "This is human made."
[74:26] I will commit him to retribution.
[74:27] What retribution!
[74:28] Thorough and comprehensive.
[74:29] Obvious to all the people.
[74:30] Over it is nineteen.
[74:31] We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19) (1) to disturb the disbelievers, (2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture), (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and (5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?" GOD thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.
Qoute:- I know that,Colombus claim could be verified by visting America at that time and now every knows about Ameraca.But if he was lying, so it make not much diffrence to any one.Quran is for the Hidaya for menkind and according to yours theory(not mine) one should not reffer any thing beside Quran. If you think there is some Mathematical Miracle of the Qur’an, in Quran, so it must proved with Quran only not with the help of man made calculations, you just have to give Sura and verse nos. only from where the man made calculations come in between?.If you can not do that, so please stop balming others for following the Sunnah and hadith.Because you also blieve in the man made stuff to understand the Quran.
>>> Please see above.

Samsher

Edited by: ibrahim on Thursday, December 08, 2005 8:17 AM
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, November 10, 2005  -  11:26 AM Reply with quote
quote:

actually mr shamsher and the rest of us are even in disagreement about the quran. He says there are some changes in the quran. Since we don't believe in the same quran, we need to start it at that level. sunnah/hadith discussion can come later


>>> Mr OOsman you could not even read my earlier post i.e. Posted - Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 9:57 AM

Please read this and verify with the available copy of Qur'an.

Samsher
ibrahim

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, November 11, 2005  -  7:04 AM Reply with quote
Dear Brother Samsher

Quote:- Where brother Almighty Allah reminded to Prophet to perform FIVE REGULAR PRAYERs in their specific timings in the verse 17:78 or anywhere in the Qur’an?

Well for you I can Delete my Word of FIVE, so read it as "Regular Prayers". r u happy NOW?

Quote:- The next verse 17:79 says about MEDITATION not Salat-Al-Tahajjud. Please read 17:79;
" During the night, you shall MEDITATE for extra credit, that your Lord may raise you to an honorable rank. "


Well ur Translation is NOT acceptable on Language BASIS. "Tahajjud" is well known for the prayer that one offers when he Awake from Sleeping. & Arabic words r "FaTahajjad BiHi" i e with Quran Not "in Quran". Suppose we take it Meditation (which is Totally wrong) then it Can be in Quran NOT with Quran.

Quote:- Verse 17:110 says about the salat as a whole. This verse says we should read our salat (i.e. all salat) in moderate tone. Pl. see;

[17:110] " YOU SHALL NOT UTTER YOUR PRAYERS (SALAT) TOO LOUDLY, nor secretly; use a moderate tone.


Plz Think upon the words "YOUR" in the Verse. it's addressing Prophet Only not US.

Quote:- Almighty Allah says that Qur’an is fully detailed & fully detailed means fully detailed not as you think. Everything has been given in the Qur’an that are required for our GUIDANCE.

Yes u r Right BUT plz NOTE this TOO that Fully Detailed means here All those MINIMUM Details that Allah Himself wanted to Give the Human being for their Guidence and LOTs of things has been LEFT to them & they Can Get them By Using their GOD-Given Wisdom.

Plz Note this too that the word "ALL" in the Quran Does NOT each & every time mans ALL MAX POSSIBLE.

Quote:- you did not yet give any reference from the Qur’an in support of your own views that we should follow men-made hadith & sunnah besides Qur’an as religious source of Islam. All your tall-talk come to nothing if you can’t show any proof from the Qur’an in support of your opinion.

Well, 1st of All U shud at least Understand that to Me, at least, Men-Made Hadith & God-Given Sunnah are NOT same things & Hadith is NOT a Source of Islam & Can Never be whereas SUNNAH is.
In this Discussion I've Raised this points again & again & I've NOT YET got any Sufficient answer of that. MY point of View is, & WHOLE MUSLIM UMMAH beleives in it too, that The Quran; revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) 1426 yrs Ago has Reached us thru the "TWATUR & IJMAA" of THIS Ummah & the God-Given SUNNAH; Practical Portion of Islam has Reached us Exactly the SAME way, so there is NO reason to Differ in them. I've asked U people again & again that 1st tell us WHAT u SAY about HOW this Quran has Reached to U people??? It's NOT Enough for a BOOK to be taken as God-Given JUST Bcoz that we have found WRITTEN in that Book that it's a WORD of God. & I hope U people Do NOT Receive this Quran from God DIRECTLY & It's NOT revealed Today to Mr. Rashd Khalifah OR to someone ELSE.

Quote:- The Qur’an is received from God and not from the Ijma…..

Yes That's WHAT I'm begging to Know that HOW U've Received Quran FROm God??? If NOT from the Ijma & Twatur & What's the PROOF w YOU that this Quran is God-Given???

Quote:- The Almighty Allah gave us only Qur’an.

please show ANY Historical Proof that "The Almighty Allah gave us only Qur’an." Bcoz Claims From Quran cannot be accepted Unless & Untill one Claims that this Quran Is Being Revealed till NOW. It's Simple that If there is an ARGUMENT about a Scripture then the PROOF will Come from OUTSIDE.

Quote:- To know this you should/must read Mathematical Miracle of the Qur’an along with 74: 19-35.

Brother U or Anyone Else Can NEVER prove to me ur "Mathematical Miracle of the Qur’an " From 74:30. Bcoz It's More than a FOOLISH thing to do so From the Above Mentioned Verse. This verse can NO WAY be Related to Anything OTHER than the 19 Angels who r the Guardians & Keepers of Hell.

regards
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, November 11, 2005  -  7:16 AM Reply with quote
Dear skysamsherali

Quote:->>> Yes it is found in the Qur'an and disbelievers can't see it.

[74:21] He looked.
[74:22] He frowned and whined.
[74:23] Then he turned away arrogantly.
[74:24] He said, "This is but clever magic!
[74:25] "This is human made."
[74:26] I will commit him to retribution.
[74:27] What retribution!
[74:28] Thorough and comprehensive.
[74:29] Obvious to all the people.
[74:30] Over it is nineteen.
[74:31] We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19) (1) to disturb the disbelievers, (2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture), (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and (5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?" GOD thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.

>>> It not stated there in you qoute above that this is the Mathematical Miracle (Code-19).Further more you said earlier the verses 9:128,9:129 are not part of the Quran, Mathematical Miracle (Code-19) of the Qur’an proved this.

There is no such statement is up there regarding verses 9:128,9:129 in your Qoute,why you are lying brother and spreading misleading information to others.Forget about the teaching of R.K,these all are misleading.

Where ever Quran said obey Messenger so its means Muhammad(pbuh) not R.K.Do you still not believe?

Allah Hafiz.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Friday, November 11, 2005  -  8:42 AM Reply with quote
Dear sksamsherali,

I do not have time to go through entire submission website at the moment. It would help me if you can point out or quote where it says about the sura tawba last 2 verses, the people who added these, the history of these verses, and other information. You might have already given this information on this message board, but I am lazy, what can I say. It is appreciated if you provide some specific links (again). Thank you.

>>> Please go http://www.submission.org/tampering.html and http://www.submission.org/false-verses.html and http://www.quran.org/9128.htm read.

Samsher
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, November 17, 2005  -  8:38 AM Reply with quote
Salam,


Quote:- There is no such statement is up there regarding verses 9:128,9:129 in your Qoute, why you are lying brother and spreading misleading information to others. Forget about the teaching of R.K, these all are misleading.

>>>> Don’t worry brother, Generations before you had claimed so whenever a new messenger came to them with proof/miracles. Pl. read;

[2:87] We gave Moses the scripture, and subsequent to him we sent other messengers, and we gave Jesus, son of Mary, profound miracles and supported him with the Holy Spirit. IS IT NOT A FACT THAT EVERY TIME A MESSENGER WENT TO YOU WITH ANYTHING YOU DISLIKED, YOUR EGO CAUSED YOU TO BE ARROGANT? SOME OF THEM YOU REJECTED, AND SOME OF THEM YOU KILLED.

Quote:- Where ever Quran said obey Messenger so its means Muhammad(pbuh) not R.K.Do you still not believe?

>>> Qur’an says we should obey messenger so we must do this in accordance with Qur’an. We should not obey Muhammad or R.K …….., we should obey their message. Do you not understand?

Salam
Samsher
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, November 17, 2005  -  10:28 AM Reply with quote
Dear skysamsherali

Quote:-Don’t worry brother, Generations before you had claimed so whenever a new messenger came to them with proof/miracles. Pl. read;

>>> You did not answer my part of reply I ask you again.

There is no such statement is in yours quote page 20 Nov.10.2005 11:18 AM, regarding verses 9:128,9:129 that these verses are not part of Quran.

Quote: Qur’an says we should obey messenger so we must do this in accordance with Qur’an. We should not obey Muhammad or R.K …….., we should obey their message. Do you not understand?

>>> Quran clearly told us that Muhammad(pbuh) is the Messenger of Allah.Who is this R.K? .There is no verse said that R.K is the Messenger of Allah.Do you believe in Allah's words or R.K's words?

Allah Hafiz
Nauman

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, November 17, 2005  -  7:22 PM Reply with quote
As-Salaamu Alaikum Samsher Ali,

I have a small query regarding the proof of Quran.

I do understand when Mr. Ijaz wrote about Quran’s Authenticity in these words; which you reject completely: It's Simple that If there is an ARGUMENT about a Scripture then the PROOF will Come from OUTSIDE.

But you said that we believe in Quran because it says so.

Let say someone brings you another Quran with some changes but keeping the words you mentioned; “THEY BELIEVE IN WHAT WAS REVEALED TO YOU, AND IN WHAT WAS REVEALED BEFORE YOU” and ”WHO BELIEVE IN THE UNSEEN”. And also the words 15:9 “We have without doubt sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)”

How would you distinguish which one is the real?
oosman

USA
Posted - Thursday, November 17, 2005  -  10:59 PM Reply with quote
I would compare it with the other copies out in the market, and if it does not match, then it is corrupt. Also consult other hufaaz to verify the verses. Then I would try to investigate where it came from and who wrote it, and why he/she left out some part of it.
Nauman

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, November 18, 2005  -  9:42 AM Reply with quote
As-Salaamu Alaikum Oosman,

Mr. Samsher Ali happens to reject the Twatur. That is why I am interested in knowing his opinion on this issue.

We believe that the Quran is the same, on this principle of Twatur, that prophet (pbuh) left 1426 years ago.

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