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ibrahim

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, October 28, 2005  -  8:39 AM Reply with quote
hmmmm
Then One Can Say that You Follow Quran BUT in the light of sayings of Rashad Khalifa. Isn't like that?
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Friday, October 28, 2005  -  10:51 AM Reply with quote
Salam,

Quote:- Brother, Ridiculous is That the ORDER of moderate (audible) tone described in (17:110) is about the Tahajjud Prayer.

>>> Another ridiculous sayings. Where brother you found Tahajjud Prayer(Salat al Tahajjud) in this verse?

[17:110] Say, "Call Him GOD, or call Him the Most Gracious; whichever name you use, to Him belongs the best names." You shall not utter your Contact Prayers (Salat) too loudly, nor secretly; use a moderate tone.

The command here is general and is for all salat prayer. Moreover there is no mention of Tahajjud prayer or Salat al Tahajjud in the whole Qur’an. If you find, please let me know.


Quote:- I hope you'll have heard that after the NAZUL of this verse Prophet (pbuh) asked Hazrat Umar to LOWER his Tone & Abu Bakr to Higher his tone in their Tahajjud Prayers. Don't U think that we've to UNDERSTAND Quranic verses according to their Context???

>>> Should you know by that time that I don’t listen/believe any ridiculous gossip as you do brother.

Quote:- We believe that Quran is Perfect & Complete from Al-Hamd to Wannaas BUT it's quite ridiculous to believe that Quran Contains Every single Detail of Every thing.

>>> This is your leap service brother, and don’t believe the completeness of the Qur’an. Almighty Allah says in the Qur’an that It is Complete, Perfect, Fully detailed and no one can abrogate His words. Do you know the meaning of these words e.g. Complete, Perfect, Fully detailed and none can abrogate His words? If you believe that Almighty Allah says ridiculous saying In the Qur’an (may Allah forgive us) then what can I do for you?


Quote:- Yes U cannot Guide US Because U r JUST Drowned from Head to Foot in your OWM man-made Views & U even Don't try to Understand others Point of View. By the Way we Don't NEED ur Guidance TOO in the Presence OF GOD-Given Guidance.

>>> It is your & your team mates views. I drowned in Qur’anic views rather you are drowned from head to foot in your man-made views e.g. men-made hadith, sunnah and so you can never understand the Qur’an and no one can guide you brother except Almighty Allah.

You said that ‘by the way we don’t need ur guidance too in the presence of God-given guidance’. But, I see brother when you want to take guidance, you take this from men-made hadith & sunnah, yet you claim that Guidance is only in the Qur’an! and for this brother I say that you give only leap service by saying that “Qur’an is complete…….”. By the way I could never say that I can give you guidance. God-given guidance is the best.

[28:56] You cannot guide the ones you love. GOD is the only One who guides in accordance with His will, and in accordance with His knowledge of those who deserve the guidance.

[28:57] They said, "IF WE FOLLOW YOUR GUIDANCE, WE WILL SUFFER PERSECUTION." Did we not establish for them a Sacred Sanctuary, to which all kinds of fruits are offered, as a provision from us? Indeed, most of them do not know.


Quote:- WHERE in QURAN Allah has Said that THESE verses r TRUE Quranic verses & these r FALSE verses? What is Quranic Formula about them & Where it is Written???

>>> Please read Mathematical Miracle of the Qur’an. If you will face any problem to understand this then please send your query to quranislam@aol.com

Salam
Samsher.
oosman

USA
Posted - Saturday, October 29, 2005  -  12:35 AM Reply with quote
Dear sksamsherali,

I do not have time to go through entire submission website at the moment. It would help me if you can point out or quote where it says about the sura tawba last 2 verses, the people who added these, the history of these verses, and other information. You might have already given this information on this message board, but I am lazy, what can I say. It is appreciated if you provide some specific links (again). Thank you
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, October 29, 2005  -  5:06 AM Reply with quote
Dear sksamsherali,

Quote:- Please read Mathematical Miracle of the Qur’an. If you will face any problem to understand this then please send your query to quranislam@aol.com

>>> All the while you keep blaming that Muslims are using men made sunnah and Hadith.How can you ask some one to used man made (Mathematical Miracle of the Qur’an) to understand the Quran???????.

You said that Quran is complete and fully detailed and we no need any other sorce beside this.So why you asking people to read some man made(Mathematical Miracle of the Qur’an)?????

Allah Hafiz
ibrahim

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, October 29, 2005  -  10:02 AM Reply with quote
Wa Salam Brother Samsher

Quote:- Another ridiculous sayings. Where brother you found Tahajjud Prayer(Salat al Tahajjud) in this verse?
Plz See this:
In 17:78 Prophet (pbuh) has been reminded to Perform the FIVE REGULAR prayers in their Specific Timings. Then in the NEXT verse he has ben told that there is an Additional prayer For him (as FARZ) in some parts of the Night which NO DOUBT is Tahajjud Prayer. & Then in 17:110 He has been Asked to offer His this special prayer (PLZ note that Arabic words are "biSaLaTiKa") in Moderate Tone; neither aloud nor in a low voice.
This is my Understanding. Now readers of this Forum can Decide Easily that WHOSE saying is "ridiculous".
Quote:- Moreover there is no mention of Tahajjud prayer or Salat al Tahajjud in the whole Qur’an. If you find, please let me know.
Well I've told U at least ONE (17:79) & I can Tell U More too BUT 1st let us see WHAT U say about the ABOVE one.
Quote:- This is your leap service brother, and don’t believe the completeness of the Qur’an. Almighty Allah says in the Qur’an that It is Complete, Perfect, Fully detailed.
Yes Quran is Fully Detailed but ONLY to THAT EXTENT where Allah Sees & wants to Give Details of a thing. NO WHERE Allah has said that QURAN contains the Detail of EACH & EVERY thing.
Quote:- I drowned in Qur’anic views rather you are drowned from head to foot in your man-made views e.g. men-made hadith, sunnah.
Yes U r drowned in Qur’anic views But those view r NOT Quranic Originally Bcoz they r your SELF-MADE views. U've JUST put behind them THOSE Quranic verses that U've Found MATCHING them.
& U don't EVEN r trying to understand the difference between Hadith & Sunnah. I agree w U (to Some Extent only) that Hadith r men-made BUT the CASE of SUNNAH is ToTALLY different. Allah Gave his Prophet (pbuh) TWO things; Quran in the FORM of WORDS & Sunnah in the FORM of ACTIONS & the Prophet (pbuh) has Given his Followers BOTH things & these TWO things have Reached thru them to WHOLE Muslim Ummah (including Us) in a SAME & EQUAL way named as "Ijmaa & Twaatur" & WE as well as Whole Muslim Ummah NEVER claim that Guidance is only in the Qur’an. It's U people (others Like U who r in a MINORITY) who claim that Guidance is only in the Qur’an. & As Both Quran & Sunnah r God-Given So U r Right that God-given guidance is the best. Unluckily U want to Depend on ONLY one Guidance given bu HIM where as Whole Ummah is taking His Guidance with BOTH hands.
Now Readers can Decide V Easily that Who is BETTER?
Quote:- Please read Mathematical Miracle of the Qur’an.
Well PLZ note THAT I've NO NEED to Read it or any other Article of this type & I've to ASK nothing about it. My Question is V V V simple. Where Quran has mentioned its "Mathematical Miracle"? Plz Tell me JUST Surah No & Verse No & nothing ELSE For God Sake.

Edited by: ibrahim on Saturday, October 29, 2005 10:05 AM
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, November 02, 2005  -  8:20 AM Reply with quote
Salam brother,

Quote:- All the while you keep blaming that Muslims are using men made sunnah and Hadith.How can you ask some one to used man made (Mathematical Miracle of the Qur’an) to understand the Quran???????.

You said that Quran is complete and fully detailed and we no need any other sorce beside this.So why you asking people to read some man made(Mathematical Miracle of the Qur’an)?????

>>>Qur’an was written Mathematically by Almighty Allah. It is a NUMERICAL STRUCTURED BOOK. So it is not man-made. It was discovered only in 1974, but that does not mean that it is man-made theory. It has been existed since the first day of Quran’s revelation.

To demonstrate the correct meaning, consider the following sentence;

If I say “Colombus discovered America”. What does this mean? Does it mean that Colombus made America? It means America was in its proper place from long ago and Colombus discovered that. Similarly Rashad Khalifa discovered Mathematical Miracle of the Qur’an, which is existed in the Qur’an since long( since its first revelation).

Salam
Samsher.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, November 02, 2005  -  8:22 AM Reply with quote
Salam brother,
Quote:- In 17:78 Prophet (pbuh) has been reminded to Perform the FIVE REGULAR prayers in their Specific Timings.
>>>Where brother Almighty Allah reminded to Prophet to perform FIVE REGULAR PRAYERs in their specific timings in the verse 17:78 or anywhere in the Qur’an?
Quote:- Then in the NEXT verse he has been told that there is an Additional prayer For him (as FARZ) in some parts of the Night which NO DOUBT is Tahajjud Prayer.
>>> The next verse 17:79 says about MEDITATION not Salat-Al-Tahajjud. Please read 17:79;
[17:79] During the night, you shall MEDITATE for extra credit, that your Lord may raise you to an honorable rank.
[17:80] And say, "My Lord, admit me an honorable admittance, and let me depart an honorable departure, and grant me from You a powerful support."
Quote:-Then in 17:110 He has been asked to offer Him this special prayer.
>>> Where brother? Verse 17:110 says about the salat as a whole. This verse says we should read our salat (i.e. all salat) in moderate tone. Pl. see;
[17:110] Say, "Call Him GOD, or call Him the Most Gracious; whichever name you use, to Him belongs the best names." YOU SHALL NOT UTTER YOUR CONTACT PRAYERS (SALAT) TOO LOUDLY, nor secretly; use a moderate tone.
Quote:- (PLZ note that Arabic words are "biSaLaTiKa") in Moderate Tone; neither aloud nor in a low voice.
>>> You please note.
Quote:- Now readers of this Forum can Decide Easily that WHOSE saying is "ridiculous".
>>> Definitely my brother, readers could see whose sayings are “ridiculous”.
Quote:- Well I've told U at least ONE (17:79) & I can Tell U More too BUT 1st let us see WHAT U say about the ABOVE one.
>>> I have told you above what is the correct meaning of verse 17:79
Quote:- Yes Quran is Fully Detailed but ONLY to THAT EXTENT where Allah Sees & wants to Give Details of a thing. NO WHERE Allah has said that QURAN contains the Detail of EACH & EVERY thing.
>>> Almighty Allah says that Qur’an is fully detailed and fully detailed means fully detailed not as you think. Everything has been given in the Qur’an that are required for our GUIDANCE. Pl. see;
[17:89] WE HAVE CITED FOR THE PEOPLE IN THIS QURAN ALL KINDS OF EXAMPLES, but most people insist upon disbelieving.
[7:52] WE HAVE GIVEN THEM A SCRIPTURE THAT IS FULLY DETAILED, WITH KNOWLEDGE, GUIDANCE, AND MERCY FOR THE PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE.
[10:37] This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than GOD. It confirms all previous messages, AND PROVIDES A FULLY DETAILED SCRIPTURE. It is infallible, for it comes from the Lord of the universe.
Do you see and understand the above verses.
Quote:- Yes U r drowned in Qur’anic views But those view r NOT Quranic Originally Bcoz they r your SELF-MADE views. U've JUST put behind them THOSE Quranic verses that U've Found MATCHING them.
>>> I always gave reference from the Qur’an in support of my point of views and reader could see that except you and your team. But brother, you did not yet give any reference from the Qur’an in support of your own views that we should follow men-made hadith & sunnah besides Qur’an as religious source of Islam. All your tall-talk come to nothing if you can’t show any proof from the Qur’an in support of your opinion.
Quote:- U don't EVEN r trying to understand the difference between Hadith & Sunnah. I agree w U (to Some Extent only) that Hadith r men-made BUT the CASE of SUNNAH is ToTALLY different. Allah Gave his Prophet (pbuh) TWO things; Quran in the FORM of WORDS & Sunnah in the FORM of ACTIONS & the Prophet (pbuh) has Given his Followers BOTH things & these TWO things have Reached thru them to WHOLE Muslim Ummah (including Us) in a SAME & EQUAL way named as "Ijmaa & Twaatur"
>>> We don’t require to understand that because nowhere in the Qur’an, Almighty Allah says us to do that.
Where bother Almighty Allah says that He gave his Prophet two things i.e. Qur’an & Sunnah? Please give reference from the Qur’an. Why do you blame even to Almighty Allah? Are you normal in mind?
The Qur’an is received from God and not from the Ijma….. the hadith and sunna we received from people like Abu Huraira and other hadith fabricators. If you believes the words of Allah in the Qur’an, you should not follow anything other than the Qur’an. Please go http://www.quran-islam.org/95.html and read.
Quote:- WE as well as Whole Muslim Ummah NEVER claim that Guidance is only in the Qur’an.
>>> Waoo! Brother, what a knowledge! All after that can you claim that you are Muslim? Pl. See;
[16:89] The day will come when we will raise from every community a witness from among them, and bring you as the witness of these people. WE HAVE REVEALED TO YOU THIS BOOK TO PROVIDE EXPLANATIONS FOR EVERYTHING, AND GUIDANCE, AND MERCY, AND GOOD NEWS FOR THE SUBMITTERS.
[7:52] We have given them a scripture that is fully detailed, with knowledge, guidance, and mercy for the people who believe.
[27:1] T. S. These (letters) constitute proofs of the Quran; a profound scripture.
[27:2] A beacon, and good news, for the believers.
[2:2] This scripture is infallible; a beacon for the righteous;
[21:10] We have sent down to you a scripture containing your message. Do you not understand?
[47:25] “Surely, those who slide back, after the guidance has been manifested to them, the devil has enticed them and led them on”. ………..and many more…..
Quote:- It's U people (others Like U who r in a MINORITY) who claim that Guidance is only in the Qur’an.
>>> Readers could see who are right? Whether it is minority or majority.
Quote:- & As Both Quran & Sunnah r God-Given.
>>> The Almighty Allah gave us only Qur’an. The only sunnah is God’s Sunnah. Nowhere in the Qur’an it is mentioned of Prophet’s Sunnah. If yes, then please show proof from the Qur’an.
Quote:- Now Readers can Decide V Easily that Who is BETTER?
>>> Of course, readers have already decided brother, who is BETTER.
Quote:- Well PLZ note THAT I've NO NEED to Read it or any other Article of this type & I've to ASK nothing about it. My Question is V V V simple. Where Quran has mentioned its "Mathematical Miracle"? Plz Tell me JUST Surah No & Verse No & nothing ELSE For God Sake.
To know this you should/must read Mathematical Miracle of the Qur’an alongwith 74: 19-35. To read Mathematical Miracle please go http://www.submission.org/math-ap1.html and http://www.submission.org/miracle/sura74.html read.

Salam
Samsher

Edited by: ibrahim on Thursday, December 08, 2005 7:52 AM
Truth

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, November 03, 2005  -  5:31 PM Reply with quote
Salaam.

I hope the following links will clarify a lot about Submitters.

http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=2890
http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=2059
zantetsuken

USA
Posted - Friday, November 04, 2005  -  11:31 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Salaam.

I hope the following links will clarify a lot about Submitters.

http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=2890
http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=2059


Salam brothers/sisters,

I have alittle issue with the translation of verse [29:48], near the bottom of your second link:
You were not able to recite a book before this [book came] nor were you able to write it. In that case indeed these deniers would have raised doubts. (Al-Ankaboot 29: 48)

as opposed to Rashad's translation of that verse:
"You did not read the previous sciptures,nor did you write them with your hand. In that case, the rejectors would have had reason to harbour doubts."

I have to say that it could be possible that Rashad's translation is more in context, if you read the aya directly before it, which are refering to previous holy scriptures simply as 'books'.

and to brother Ibrahim(or anyone else), I would like to hear your general opinions of my questions(first post, p.17). For example:
-do you really think that the letters such as a.l.m. serve no purpose besides naming the sura?
-What is your opinion of the music hadith I mentioned in specific. Most sunnis I knew in Saudia believe listenening to any music w/ beat is haram. Do you listen to any?

may God guide us,
Abdullah

Edited by: zantetsuken on Saturday, November 05, 2005 10:09 AM
Truth

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, November 05, 2005  -  7:34 AM Reply with quote
Salaam,

The Pickthall and Yusuf Ali have also referred to the previous scriptures. I believe if the word “book” would have been written with a capital “B”; it would have not doubted the matter.
My assumption is based on the word “recite” used by the author.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Sunday, November 06, 2005  -  1:14 PM Reply with quote
Salaam

Since the discussion appears to veer between so many issues, would it not be simpler if discussion was limited to a particular point(s). Am I correct? that the whole thread was about the belief in Hadith & Sunnah.
What ever disagreements with sksamsherali anyone has he has been consistent on relying on the Quran to back up his points (wehether you agree or disagree with his interpretation is another issue). He has (I thinK) stated that he is not too concerned with Khalid bloke but only his message regarding God.

The core of his argument is summarised:

Where bother Almighty Allah says that He gave his Prophet two things i.e. Qur’an & Sunnah? Please give reference from the Qur’an

Despite all our different views, we all agree ( I hope) that the Quran is the absolute truth. Therfore Can Ibrahim or anyone else please answer the above point and claerly quote their reference from the Quran. Then perhaps we can move on the another point
oosman

USA
Posted - Sunday, November 06, 2005  -  6:06 PM Reply with quote
actually mr shamsher and the rest of us are even in disagreement about the quran. He says there are some changes in the quran. Since we don't believe in the same quran, we need to start it at that level. sunnah/hadith discussion can come later
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Monday, November 07, 2005  -  9:05 PM Reply with quote
salaam
But the question samsher asks is still valid. Since Ibrahim has implied that he cannot accept hadith as there is no reference in quran. The point samsher has raised is where is the reference to sunnah or is someone applying double standards here.
Where bother Almighty Allah says that He gave his Prophet two things i.e. Qur’an & Sunnah? Please give reference from the Qur’an
ibrahim

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, November 08, 2005  -  6:22 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Dear Mr. Oosman
Neither do I.
You only get lenghty posts and no direct replies to your questions.
Is not this releaving to note that the Messiah the Jew, the Christians and the Muslims were waiting and MEHDI the Muslims were praying for is/was in fact Rashad Khalifa! Finaly INTIZAR is over!!
But I wonder who is this Mehdi, Khalifa referd to and as he claimed, Muslim were praying for? Can anybody explain that to me?
Regards.
Ijaz
Well Br Ijaz Plz Made it Clear to U that the Theory of WAITING Messiah is NOT Correct Bcoz:

Jews Denied The Original Messiah (JESUS pbuh) when he Actually came to them, So NOW their WAIT has NO Weightage
&
It's Christians' OWN beleive that Jesus will Return. There is NO PROOF of that
&
Muslim's Believe of Mehdi OR return of Jesus (pbuh) is Not Correct as it's Totally BASED on Ahaadith (Most of them r NOT Authentic too) & it has NO base in Quran. It's Compulsory in Accepting EVEN an Authentic Hadith that it Should have its Some Base in Quran

So There is no EMPTY place that is needed to be Filled with "Rashad Khalifa"
What U'll say Now as there is no INTIZAAR here.
ibrahim

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, November 08, 2005  -  7:29 AM Reply with quote
quote:

and to brother Ibrahim(or anyone else), I would like to hear your general opinions of my questions(first post, p.17). For example:
-do you really think that the letters such as a.l.m. serve no purpose besides naming the sura?
-What is your opinion of the music hadith I mentioned in specific. Most sunnis I knew in Saudia believe listenening to any music w/ beat is haram. Do you listen to any?
may God guide us,
Abdullah

Well Br Abdullah Plz again Note that
A.L.M & all other "Huroof e Muqatta'aat" are only & only the Names of those Surahs & serve No Other purpose.
As for As The Case of Music Ahadith is Concerned, plz 1st Read my Opinion about Ahadith that I've mentioned in this Page & then Note that Music Doesn't Fall in the Haram things in itself. Only Its WRONG Poetry will Make it Haram & Beat or Use of any Instrument Doesn't have Any Effect on its STATUS
may God guide us to His Right Path. Amin
ibrahim

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, November 08, 2005  -  7:49 AM Reply with quote
quote:

salaam
But the question samsher asks is still valid. Since Ibrahim has implied that he cannot accept hadith as there is no reference in quran. The point samsher has raised is where is the reference to sunnah or is someone applying double standards here.
Where bother Almighty Allah says that He gave his Prophet two things i.e. Qur’an & Sunnah? Please give reference from the Qur’an

Well Brother I've Raised more BASIC Question than that. 1st of All those People Who Want to Follow ONLY & ONLY Quran Shud TELL me & All others like me that "FROM WHERE THEY HAVE GOT QURAN?" Bcoz WHOLE Muslim Ummah Says that They have GOT Quran from the "TWATUR & IJMAA" of Ummah & They have GOT one More thing Simultaniously with Quran from the SAME WAY & that's the SUNNAH. So we've NO reason to DIFFER between the BOTH.
So the Ball is in the Court of those who Want to Follow ONLY Quran that WHY they want to Do So? & Does their Source of Getting Quran is Different fom OURS? & If Yes then WHAT's THAT?

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