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cares

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, February 17, 2007  -  11:47 AM Reply with quote
Cont….3

Quote: I have already replied to your above question through my earlier mail. I already told that you tried to create an illusion between the two English words EXISTINGS & POSSESSION.

Reply: brother I answer u then again u will become angry, that y u use word “ all existing” in place of “possessing”, it is just that u people want to let the people know that Quran itself is mentioned in it but as it is not so, as I mentioned in my previous post. This is just like to kill two birds with one stone. One side u mention a word similar to it, and other side gets ur purpose behind it.


Quote: You think that here existing and possession do not mean the same.

Reply: if it has the same then y r u using “ all existing” plz use possessing .

Quote: You think what Muhammad possessed are only the previous scriptures, not the Qur’an

Reply: Quran was in his possession but not in complete form.

Qute: OR you think Qur’an does not come in the circle of Muhammad’s possession. But this is not true. Here the meaning of All Existing Scriptures and which you(Muhammad) possessed are the same because previous(all existing) scriptures and the present scriptures i.e. Qur’an, both were in possession of Muhammad.


Reply: yes if u consider Muhammad himself in this covenant. But as it is not so. Brother I already told u that to confirm “QURAN” itself is not concerned. But this Quran which is confirming previous scriptures. I quoted verses of Holy Quran in this regard already.

Quote: Qur’an confirms all scriptures before it, but It does not confirm Itself.
Qur’an does not confirm Itself. You can’t give your own charter certificate…ha…ha…ha…

Reply: brother u tell where Quran confirms itself, as confirmation of previous scriptures is so as these are mentioned in the next or last scriptures, and there is no book after the Quran to confirm it, then how Quran is confirms itself OR how a CONFIRMER ITSELF CAN CONFIRM. VERY SIMPLE.
Cont…
cares

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, February 17, 2007  -  11:54 AM Reply with quote
Cont…4

Quote: You are not only whimsical but also a betrayer because you tryied to betray other believers in this forum by creating confusion between the two words Existing & Possession in 3:81.

Reply: I m not so, as u blame me for nothing, I just want to reveal what u r hiding BEHIND in this regard and whatever I understand, I tell, If u fear that what u conceal will be revealed than do not worry brother….the believers has their own sense, brain, eyes and aqal to understand any thing in the regard.

Quote: MY REPLY:- verse 3:81 says:
“And afterward there will come unto you a messenger, CONFIRMING THAT WHICH YE POSSESS”.(Pickthall) OR
“Afterwards, a messenger will come to CONFIRM ALL EXISTING SCRIPTURES”.(R.K.)
Quote: when Quran speaks about the confirmation of scriptures, it mentions the confirmation of those scriptures, : (5:48), (2:41),(2:88),(2:97)
As It does not say any confirmation of itself therefore there is not such verse in this regard.
Quote: so brother, your translation is nothing but your own whims and every believer of this forum can see/realize this very easily.

Reply: they can brother, where I say that they can not..

Quote: 2ndly, your created interpretation also says us “Muhammad will come to confirm which U(previous prophets posses)… that also means Muhammad was not prophet,

Reply: how did u conclude this! He was a prophet and a messenger too.
By the way y do u separate here “messenger” other than a prophet too, as u mentions that a prophet is also called a messenger. May Allah wanted to say that a messenger (a prophet) will come to confirm …as prophet Muhammad is also a prophet.
Further more, Quran is the only book of which God has took responsibity to guard. Y? , as it is not said about other past books, but these past books are mentioned and confirmed in the Quran, and what is left behind to confirm, it IS QURAN AND QURAN’S GUARDSHIP Or CONFIRMATION IS TAKEN BY GODHIMSELF. THERE FORE ALL BOOKS HAVE GUARDED OR CONFIRMED IN THIS WAY. Any way I can’nt say more than this.


Quote: because then the duty of Muhammad would be to confirm the previous scriptures not delivery of the new scripture, which is totally baseless and false.


Reply: Y do u say that he will not bring the new scripture, does verses say so..where as this is also proved that Muhammad came to confirm the previous scriptures with the Quran.

Quote: 3rdly, your created interpretation says us “You (prophets other than Muhammad because he is not encluded) shall believe in him (Muhammad) and support him (Muhammad),

Here you agreed that Muhammad was a prophet but the verse 3:81 does not say that ‘prophets other than Muhammad shall believe in Muhammad. Also you committed a gross mistake here. Please consider; Muhammad was the last prophet and he came more than 500 years after the death of Jesus, last prophet before Muhammad. Then how could ALL PROPHETS SUPPORT & BELIEVE MUHAMMAD, WHEN THEY ALL ARE DEAD WHEN MUHAMMAD CAME?????

Reply: How do u see a support of a prophet to a prophet, do u think that they (previous) prophets should have been present to support the messenger Muhammad. Is’nt? It is not so, to help or support of a prophet to a prophet is to believe in the MESSAGE what allah gives them all, suppose Allah gives the previous prophets a message saying that HE will give the same message to an other messenger or prophet, and when this (coming) messenger will unite with u and ask for witness that what he (coming) was given, did u (previous) prophets receive the same?, than u (previous) prophets have to give witness that yes we (previous) prophets have been given the same message what u have been given and we are witness and Allah also. This is a help to support each other message not worldly help hand to hand. Read the verse again u will find the result.

AND ALSO VERSES FROM THE QURAN,33:45, 2:143, 16: 89,
O Prophet! Truly We have sent thee as a Witness, a Bearer of Glad Tidings, and Warner (33:45)
Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Apostle a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qibla to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Apostle from th ose who would turn on their heels (From the Faith). Indeed it was (A change) momentous, except to those guided by God. And never would God Make your faith of no effect. For God is to all people Most surely full of kindness, Most Merciful (2:143)
One day We shall raise from all Peoples a witness against them, from amongst themselves: and We shall bring thee as a witness against these (thy people): and We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide, a Mercy, and Glad Tidings to Muslims (16:89)

Cont…
cares

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, February 17, 2007  -  11:55 AM Reply with quote
Cont…5
Quote: Fourthly, he said “ do u (prophets other than Muhammad) agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this coenant?”. They (not encluding Muhammad) said, “ We agree, (prophets other than Muhammad agreed). He said, “ you have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with u”.

Here also you done Same gross mistake as you did above.

Reply: I am clear to my words as I mentioned above, I had made no mistake.

Quote: [44:5-6] It is a predetermined command from us that we send messengers. This is a mercy from your Lord. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

Reply: Oh God!, How u changed the verse, it is seeing able, see the translation of others,


[10:47] To each community, a messenger. After their messenger comes, they are judged equitably, without the least injustice.

Reply: My dear brother, we are a single community, after the coming of Prophet Muhammad, and we his “UMAH” till the hereafter. Therefore this verse is also mentioned during the coming of Muhammad in Arabs as they have forgotten previous prophets teachings and their scriptures. They are reminded that Alalh sends messengers TO each community ( UMAH) but not IN each community.


Quote: [3:81] GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures……”

Reply: this verse is being discussed already so much that I should not say more about this. However, this verse does not mean that Allah will send a messenger after Muhammad for more guiadance of Humanbeing as religion. Even if I agree that there will come a messenger after Muhammad (pbuh), he will not be among us humanbeing.

Quote: :- Then why could you not been able to provide a single one in support of your statement? Do you fear???

Reply: Brother I have given quranic verses in this regard, and do not fear any one except My Lord.

My Quote:- Sincerely speaking, brother I m not a learned or scholar man, just a student, but I knew this that u are not on the right path, but Allah knows the best that who is on right path.


Your REPLY:- I think you are a man with chicken IQ. In one side you blame me by saying that ‘ I am not on the right path’, but then you opined that ‘Allah knows the best, who is on right path’…..ha…ha….ha….ha….ha…ha…

Reply: ha…hah….haha, what I said it is because of my understanding, and my understand or knowledge never can be equal to what Allah Almighty posses. Therefore I m right to my words, but I think u have full knowledge and confirmation what u know. Is’nt?????? Ha…hah….ha…


In last brother I again thank for ur response, and I have no compete with u and this may be my last post to u.

Thnx.
Cares…
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, February 17, 2007  -  9:14 PM Reply with quote
The posters are reminded to review the Code of Conduct of the forums and keep to the rules please. You may critically analyze the scholars' views with relevant evidence against their stance, but avoid using inappropriate language and personal attacks either on them or other participants and moderators.
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, February 17, 2007  -  9:18 PM Reply with quote
We appreciate the postings of all our participants and specially our senior participants who have been there since a longer time.

You are aware that this site presents full fledged courses on Revelation, history, Language,Arrangement and Interpretation of Qur'an as well as detailed courses about Sunnah with specified references and evidences from not only Qur'an and Sunnat e Rasool itself but also from verified hadith literature and the work of the renowned scholars of the past.
If yet you ask the moderators or scholar of the site for 'reference from Quran and Sunnah.
' then we are afraid, either you have decided to waste your own and everybody's time by just beating around the bush; or if you have studied all this seriously and sincerely and if you are not satisfied with these studies and references then you have every right to believe and stick to what you feel is the Right; do not go on asking for more references again and again which have been given in the relevant courses and articles already.
also check out our special issues of monthly renaissance on these topics at www.monthly-renaissance.com and in urdu at monthly Ishraq and Almawrid sites.


These decisions and results are based on the hard work of these genius scholars over the years of nights and days and is not just a 'harbong' of a lapatya.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Monday, February 19, 2007  -  9:25 AM Reply with quote
Salam,

Quote: so what brother, Does Allah says so that scripture is stuck only with the Prophets due to prophet hood. This is ur understanding.


MY REPLY:- Brother, your knowledge of English is very poor(full of grammatical, punctuation errors,) and for these reasons many times, to me, it is almost impossible to understand your opinion. Whatever may be, I again say that “Whenever God mentions prophethood in the Qur’an, HE mentions scripture and sometimes wisdom”. The association of prophethood and scripture cannot be missed even in one single instance. That means scriptures/wisdom were sent only with the prophets .. not with those who are only messengers, proof is 3:81.


Quote:- In verse 2:13 , Allah does not say so that He gives prophet hood to prophets, see again brother… 2:213

Here I think Allah made a mistake or forgotten (may allah forgive me) to mention prophet hood with the prophets. Brother even ur said “some times wisdom” is also not mentioned here. Atleast make a little sense brother!
And do not say later that I have not given u proof from the Quran. But I think u will bring an other whim to remove this.

MY REPLY :- Ha….ha….ha… As I mentioned above that your knowledge of English is very poor, here you gave another example as proof of it.

I told that “Whenever God mentions prophethood in the Qur’an, HE mentions scripture and sometimes wisdom”. The association of prophethood and scripture cannot be missed even in one single instance.

Does the above verse not say you about the relation between the prophet and the scripture?? Probably you don’t know the meaning of English word ‘prophethood’, so you think this way.

Prophet (N) = One who proclaims a divine message,………….AND the word ‘prophethood’ is also a NOUN. (Concise Oxford Dictionary)I told this above in that sense as prophethood is the noun and also prophet.

Now do you see who is sensible and who is not??

Whatever may be, if you do not agree with me then don’t, but yet you can‘t deny the truth that “Whenever God mentions prophethood (prophet according to you, as you don’t know the meaning of English word prophethood) in the Qur’an, HE mentions scripture and sometimes wisdom. Is it clear now brother??


Quote:- However I ask u why u r calling a prophet as a messenger too, why? As u mentioned that because prophets have been given “ SCRIPTURES”, therefore prophets are called messengers. Is’nt? Ok.


MY REPLY:- No, I did not say this ONLY. This is half truth. I also said the followings;

In 7:157, and 7:158 where God described the Prophet Muhammed as, "the messenger the prophet" and not as "the prophet the messenger," not a coincidence, [God does not have coincidences]. The reason is that not every messenger is a prophet and therefore the word PROPHET is used to further define and clarify the description of that messenger.

"follow the messenger, the prophet (gentile prophet) (Muhammed), whom they find written in their Torah and Gospel . . . "7:157

"..........therefore you shall believe in God and His messenger, the prophet (gentile prophet), who believes in God and His words. Follow him, that you may be guided." 7:158

In 19:51, Moses was described by God as a messenger prophet (Rasoulan Nabyya), and NOT as a prophet messenger (Nabyyan Rasoula).

d) In 19:54, Ismail is described with the same words, 'Rasoulan Nabyyan'.

The reason is that, NOT every Rasoul (Messenger) is a Nabi (Prophet), BUT every Prophet (Nabi) is a Messenger (Rasoul), so God defined the word Rasoul by adding to it Nabyya. God does not make mistakes and He does not choose His words haphazard, it is meant to be in this order.

OTHER EXAMPLES are found in the Quran to clarify this description:

"Am I more than a human messenger (Basharan Rasoula)" 17:93

Notice, " a human messenger" and NOT "a messenger human (Rasoulan Bashara)."

The reason is that not every Bashar (human) is a Rasoul (messenger) while every Rasoul (messenger) from among us is a Bashar (human).

17:94, has the same expression again, human messenger (Basharan Rasoula), not (Rasoulan Bashara)

" . . . we would have sent to them from the sky an angel messenger (Malakan Rasoula)" 17:95

Notice, "an angle messenger" and NOT "a messenger angel (Rasoulan Malaka). The reason is that not every angel is a messenger but every messenger FROM God's soldiers is an angel.

In 19:41, God described Abraham as "a Siddiqan Nabyya (Saint Prophet)" and NOT as a Nabyyan Siddiqa, (Prophet Saint). The reason is that not every Siddiq (Saint ) is a prophet, while every prophet is a siddiq.

If God would say, Abraham was a Nabbyan Siddiqua (prophet saint), this would indicate that not every prophet is a saint while every saint is a prophet.

In 19:56, God described the prophet Idris the same way, as a Siddiquan Nabyya (Saint prophet).

NO WHERE in the whole Quran does God use these terms different. God never described a prophet as a prophet messenger ( Nabbyan Rasoula), or prophet saint (Nabyyan Siddiqua).

So the Quranic truth is: that EVERY PROPHET (NABI) IS A MESSENGER (RASOUL) BUT NOT EVERY MESSENGER IS A PROPHET.

To be continued...
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Monday, February 19, 2007  -  11:37 AM Reply with quote
Salam,

Quote :- THAN HOW A MESSENGER CAN BE CALLED A MESSENGER WITHOUT A SCRIPTURE?

MY REPLY:- As Qur’an called in respect of messenger Saleh, Suhaib, Hood and as it called in verse 3:81. Scriptures were only sent through the messengers who were also prophets, but who were only messengers did not bring/ does not bring any book. Example above.


Quote:- Brother If I go with ur definition, then I found the following results, point out me where I am wrong..

1} that there are two types of messengers.
a): those who receive INSPIRATION (not any revelation or scripture) and as they receive only INSPIRATION (which is not a source of guidance), therefore they are said to promote the EXISTING SCRIPTURES being the source of scripture.

MY REPLY :- Our source of guidance is ONLY QUR’AN. Inspiration besides Qur’an is not our religious guidance. Moreover, all types of inspirations that are mentioned in the Qur’an are not our religious guidance(does not form any religious regulation) e.g. inspiration, which received mother of Moses, inspiration, which received Bee etc..etc.


There were messengers, who received inspirations not revelations to promote the existing scripture, e.g. Saleh, Suhaib….. also verse 3:81 approves this.


Quote:- b): there are messengers mentioned in the quran who received SCRIPTURES (as mentioned above verses) but actually they are not MESSENGERS they are PROPHETS; and they are said messengers because as they received SCRIPTURE OR MESSAGE. Is’nt? Ok


MY REPLY :- Not ok. There were Messengers who were also PROPHETS, received scriptures. They are called messengers prophets, e.g. Abraham, Moses, Isha, Muhammad…….(example, I have already given)

Now that results as the messengers who were not prophets (e.g. Saleh, shuaib, also in 3:81) did not bring any scripture.


Quote: 1: messengers do not receive scriptures but promoted with the existing scriptures of a prophet whom a scripture is given. (they have not their own).


MY REPLY:- Not true. Messengers, who were not prophet, did not receive scriptures but promoted with the existing scriptures


Quote:- 2: where messengers are shown received with the scriptures they are prophets. (They have not given any scripture themselves).


MY REPLY:- Messengers who were also prophets received the scriptures as because they were also prophets besides messengers.


Quote:- THAN BROTHER HOW DO U CALL “A PROPHET” A “ MESSENGER” WHEN NO MESSENGER RECEIVE ANY SCRIPTURE BUT PROMOTE THE EXISTING SCRIPTURE AND WHICH (scripture) IS ALSO of A PROPHET not his own (messenger)??.


MY REPLY:- You are confused. Messengers who received scriptures were called prophets e.g. Prophet Muhammad. so Prophet Muhammad was a ‘MESSENGER PROPHET’ but messengers, who were not sent with the scriptures, were not called prophets, e.g. Messenger Shuaib, Saleh… also in verse 3:81 indicates us that all messengers were NOT SENT WITH THE SCRIPTURES, but can be called as messengers.


Then your whim ‘all messengers were sent with scriptures’ is baseless.


Quote:- 2ndly then HOW DO U CALL “A PROPHET” A MESSENGER because of a scripture and at the same time u do accept A MESSENGER without any scripture. And it is further seen very interesting to know that a prophet can be titled as messenger because of a SCRIPTUER but the title bear (messenger) himself does not have a SCRIPTURE. What a definition!!!!!!!


MY REPLY:- A prophet can be titled as ‘messenger prophet’ not ‘messenger’ only, as I shown you through my earlier replies, and this is the definition,


Quote:- Is there any body alive in this forum to understand this definition of brother samsherali, is there any one??

MY REPLY:- Nobody alive except the blind one like you to accept your definition.

To be continued………
cares

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, February 19, 2007  -  12:04 PM Reply with quote
Sallam,
Brother Moderator,


Quote: The posters are reminded to review the Code of Conduct of the forums and keep to the rules please. You may critically analyze the scholars' views with relevant evidence against their stance, but avoid using inappropriate language and personal attacks either on them or other participants and moderators.

Reply: Thnx for patience, and reminding, as for as critically analyzing is concerned, it will never damage or harm any one personality as for as evidence and logic are failed, he is raised up than ever he was.
Further I personally did not use any hard or inappropriate language and person attacks to any one but tried to reply in the same manner if one behaves so.., Any way I apologize, if I have been so due to my unconsciousness.


Quote: We appreciate the postings of all our participants and specially our senior participants who have been there since a longer time.


Reply: Thx again, U have to appreciate ur senior participants, as every one has need a place to make his home or domain for a moment even if it were a well (kuwa).


Quote: then we are afraid, either you have decided to waste your own and everybody's time by just beating around the bush.

Reply: I don’t see to whom u r addressing, as u used word “ EVERYBODY”, then who they are out of these everybody. Plz help.

Quote: or if you have studied all this seriously and sincerely and if you are not satisfied with these studies and references then you have every right to believe and stick to what you feel is the Right;

Reply: this is all what every one should do, and it will also be done when one has an open mind to accept the truth, I agree.

Quote: do not go on asking for more references again and again which have been given in the relevant courses and articles already.

Reply: As for as references are concerned, Every scholar has collected references for his comments and views, but these are not enough, because there are so many people around the world and they (scholars) have to reply all of them, they can live their own life accordingly, but can not make law for every one.

Quote: These decisions and results are based on the hard work of these genius scholars over the years of nights and days and is not just a 'harbong' of a lapatya

Reply: Alas! I do not know whom u r calling genius, are they past or newly ones, any way whoever they are, sometimes past were presents and presents are to be past, BUT still ISHQ KE IMTIHAN AUR BAKEE HAIN?. Wait and See.


cares..
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Monday, February 19, 2007  -  1:35 PM Reply with quote
cares dear.plz note that the posting was more or less general for all but sp for the participants who keep complaining about lack of evidence or replies.
plz note that it is not specified for yourself or anyone who is trying to understand by interaction and discussion which is absolutely fine.

plz continue hope you are enjoying our courses.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, February 21, 2007  -  8:58 AM Reply with quote
Salam,

In reply to brother cares whims…..

Qutoe: whre did I say so brother, that u said “ Quran is not the last scripture.” Why u r telling a lie against me.

MY REPLY :- brother you claimed earlier that Allah sent scriptures to both messengers and prophets SEPARATELY, when this is not true, and you also claimed that no scripture will come and Qur’an is the last scripture as no messenger and prophet are to come. In reply to your same claim I replied to you on 14 February,2006 as follows;

“At first pl. show me a single reference from the Qur’an wherein Almighty says(as you claimed) that “He sent scriptures to both messengers and prophets SEPARATELY”. I know you can’t be able. Please go and try…..carry on……. Also I never claimed by saying that Qur’an is not the last scripture. Don’t speak lie after lie”.


Brother you tried to avoid my first & main question here By Hook Or By Crook. You could not show me even a single reference from the Qur’an in support of your said claim i.e. ‘he sent scriptures to both messengers and prophets SEPARATELY and also you claimed that Qur’an is the last scripture because no messenger and no prophet will come, when it is not true that no messenger will come after Muhammad according to Qur’an. In reply to your same claims I replied you “……don’t speak lie after lie’ Really you spoke lie, if not then why could you not been able to supply any verse in support of any of your claims i.e. “God sent scriptures both prophets and messengers SEPARATELY” & Qur’an is the last scripture as no messenger will come’. I don’t require to say any lie about you because you yourself is a liar. All your claims based on false doctrine.


Quote: if we go through the contex of the verses of this surah from starting to 3:81, we will see that Allah addresses to those people who deny of new coming messenger. Therefore a reminder is reminded to them what Allah took covenant from their own prophets that there will come a new messenger after them (their prophets), then y u (these previous) people are denying of new messenger.


MY REPLY:- No your understanding is wrong. This verse does not say that the said covenant took at that moment when Jews, Christians…. (previous people) denying of a new coming messenger. This verse ALSO APPLIES FOR US. Also you opined that “Allah addresses to THOSE PEOPLE WHO DENY OF A NEW COMING MESSENGER…” Brother, you people also are denying of a new coming messenger… .. so at least at that point this verse addressed to you people also..


Now pl. come to the second point. The verse(3:81) does not say us that Allah took the covenant from their(previous people) prophets. THE VERSE CLEARLY SAYS US THAT GOD TOOK THE COVENANT FROM PROPHETS(NO PREVIOUS, NO PAST). That means He took the covenant from Prophets and AS MUHAMMAD WAS A PROPHET, SO HE WAS ALSO INCLUDED IN THIS COVENANT. Very simple. I know why you feel problem here to think that Muhammad was also included in this covenant, because you people think that Muhammad was the last messenger. Brother he was not the last messenger, rather he was A MESSENGER and the LAST PROPHET (33:40)and also he was included in this covenant (3:81, 33:7).


Quote: I already said that there is no such covenant taken by Muhammad of a new messenger coming.

MY REPLY:- You can say anything but that does not mean your sayings will be truth as Qur’an does not support any of your sayings/whims. The only truth is what Qur’an says and IT says us that Muhammad was also included in that covenant (3:81, 33:7)


Quote: oh my God!, Who is this messenger? And did he not bring the scripture with him to confirm other scriptures. This is about prophet Muhammad and he also brought a book...very sad!


MY REPLY : Brother, I wanted to say you here what can be the duties of a MESSENGER, i.e. confirming the scriptures, amongst his many duties, whether he might be Muhammad or any one (proof is in 3:81). But as you a man with Chicken IQ, so you could not understand the inner meaning of this verse. Very sad. I think it is wrong to imagine that you can be understood the inner meaning of this verse, because you have no ability even to understand the straightforward/simple meaning of the verse 3:81, then how could it be possible? Sorry brother.

To be continued……………
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, February 21, 2007  -  9:10 AM Reply with quote
Salam,

In reply to brother cares whims…………


MY QUOTE:- Messengers sent for teaching and purifying a people:-

Your reply: Oh my God, again a verse which is speaking about a messenger who brought a revelation or scripture….brother I think I should remind u the questions, that is “ where it is mentioned that a messenger without a scripture confirms the existing scritptures”. Note “ without a scripture”. y r u trying to confuse me or others. By the way again this is not ur fault, because u can not bring those verse which are speaking a messenger without a scripture.


MY REPLY:- Above. Also the example is in Qur’an e.g. messenger Saleh, Hood,…. If you think that Almighty Allah sent scriptures with these messengers then provide proof. Several times I asked proof from you regarding this, but you could not been able to provide the same. So I did not feel any necessary to mention the name of these messenger once again. But when you asked again, then I give you the name of them here once again. Pl. go and try to invent a new meaning of any verse which supports your whims and after that you pl. place the same verse before me. I shall InshAllah comment on your said whims.


My Quote: Messengers are sent to reveal hidden issues within the scripture:


Your reply: oh my God! Thanx to God that u did not bring a single verse for ur support that messenger who do not bring scriptures promopte the existing scripture, all verses u have mentioned of those messenger who brought scriptures… very sad!. But this is not ur fault, u could not find any single verse. Atleast now agree brother that u have no support to this from Quran.


MY REPLY:- Reply above. Could you see now(above example)? Oh My God, I forget that you are blind. Blind can’t see anything.


Quote: brother I answer u then again u will become angry, that y u use word “ all existing” in place of “possessing”, it is just that u people want to let the people know that Quran itself is mentioned in it but as it is not so, as I mentioned in my previous post. This is just like to kill two birds with one stone. One side u mention a word similar to it, and other side gets ur purpose behind it.


MY REPLY:- brother I know why you want to use the word ‘possession’ in place of ‘ all existing’. You try to convey and also confuse the people by saying that ‘qur’an was not in possession of Muhammad at that time’. There is no scope of asking any question regarding whether Qur’an was in possession of Muhammad at that time or not, because the said covenant had not taken at that time. The verse in concerned says us that “GOD TOOK a covenant from the prophets…” that means THE COVENANT HAD ALREADY BEEN TAKEN FROM PROPHETS. It might be taken some times in the past(worldly sense) in the HEAVEN, but not AT THAT TIME IN THIS WORLD because all the prophets were not coming together in this world at that time, as I already told you. Or Almighty Allah did not say here that He TOOK the covenant from the prophets besides Muhammad….. So brother your whimsical thinking is nothing but full of confusion.


To be continued…………….
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, February 21, 2007  -  11:00 AM Reply with quote
Salam,

In reply to brother care’s whims……………………

Quote: Quran was in his possession but not in complete form.

MY REPLY : I have already replied about the subject through my earlier response.Pl.see that.


Quote: brother u tell where Quran confirms itself, as confirmation of previous scriptures is so as these are mentioned in the next or last scriptures, and there is no book after the Quran to confirm it, then how Quran is confirms itself OR how a CONFIRMER ITSELF CAN CONFIRM. VERY SIMPLE.


My reply:- Then who will confirm the Qur’an. The answer is in 3:81 (All after the prophets & scriptures, A messenger will come to confirm all the existing scriptures or all the scriptures which will be in his possession) as I replied through my earlier post.


Quote: how did u conclude this! He was a prophet and a messenger too.
By the way y do u separate here “messenger” other than a prophet too, as u mentions that a prophet is also called a messenger. May Allah wanted to say that a messenger (a prophet) will come to confirm …as prophet Muhammad is also a prophet.


MY REPLY:- Prophet is also called a messenger but all messengers were not prophet(proof has already been given) and this verse3:81 says about a messenger, not messenger prophet. ‘ a messenger will come, not messenger prophet, to confirm the existing scriptures’ and Muhammad was a messenger prophet and sent with the Qur’an, also he did not confirm Qur’an. So the messenger mentioned in verse 3:81 was not Muhammad. It is another messenger who will not be a prophet, simply a messenger, who will confirm the existing scriptures including the Qur’an.


Quote:- Further more, Quran is the only book of which God has took responsibity to guard. Y? , as it is not said about other past books, but these past books are mentioned and confirmed in the Quran, and what is left behind to confirm, it IS QURAN AND QURAN’S GUARDSHIP Or CONFIRMATION IS TAKEN BY GODHIMSELF. THERE FORE ALL BOOKS HAVE GUARDED OR CONFIRMED IN THIS WAY. Any way I can’nt say more than this.


MY REPLY:- For the argument sake, If I ask you how could you know that the present day’s Qur’an, which you possess, is guarded by God? What will be your answer? What is the proof of your answer/statement?


2ndly, Almighty Allah took the responsibility of GURDING the Qur’an, not confirming the Qur’an. Why do you again try to confuse others by creating new meaning of the English word Guard??? It means to protect, not to confirm.

Moreover, If Almighty Allah confirmed the Qur’an through the guradship of It OR HE took the responsibility of confirming the Qur’an(according to your definition), then why HE says in verse 3:81 that “ A messenger will come to confirm the existing scriptures”. Really brother, You did not think these points seriously, yet you always ready to pass any remark regarding any subject without any understanding. Very sad!!!


Quote:- Y do u say that he will not bring the new scripture, does verses say so..where as this is also proved that Muhammad came to confirm the previous scriptures with the Quran.


MY REPLY:- verse 3:81 says that the incoming messenger will come only to confirm the existing scriptures, he will not deliver the new scripture. Did you not see? Qur’an confirmed previous scriptures, but Qur’an did not confirm Itself. You can’t give/write your own character certificate. Plus you please see my earlier reply regarding the subject.


Quote: How do u see a support of a prophet to a prophet, do u think that they (previous) prophets should have been present to support the messenger Muhammad. Is’nt? It is not so, to help or support of a prophet to a prophet is to believe in the MESSAGE what allah gives them all,


MY REPLY :- This verse(3:81) does not say us any support of prophets to a prophet. It says support of prophets to a messenger (not prophet) who will come all after them and all the scriptures have been delivered and his duty will be only to confirm the existing scriptures. So the verse(3:81) says “You(prophets) shall believe in him(new coming messenger and his message) and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They(prophets) said, "We agree."


To be continued……………..
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Wednesday, February 21, 2007  -  11:15 AM Reply with quote
004.059
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, February 22, 2007  -  10:52 AM Reply with quote
Salam,

In continuation of my reply to brother care’s whims…………

Quote:- suppose Allah gives the previous prophets a message saying that HE will give the same message to an other messenger or prophet………. Read the verse again u will find the result.


MY REPLY:- You please read the verse again and see what it results;
[3:81] GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you."

The verse says that God took a covenant from the PROPHETS saying that HE will give them(prophets) Scripture and wisdom(message, in your language) and afterwards HE says them(prophets) that a MESSENGER will come to confirm what you(prophets) possess and then HE said that you(prophets) shall believe in him and support him(new coming messenger and his message). Then Almighty God said that ‘do you(prophets) agree with this and PLEDGE TO FULFIL THIS COVENANT? They(prophets) said ‘ We(prophets) agree….

Do you see the results brother?? Prophets will help the new coming messenger and support him(new messenger and his message). Oh yes.. one thing you said rightly and I appreciate it i.e. this help is not worldly help and for this reason I told you again and again that the covenant was not taken in this world. It had been taken in the past(worldly sense) and Muhammad was also included in it as he was also a prophet.


My Quote: [44:5-6] It is a predetermined command from us that we send messengers. This is a mercy from your Lord. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

Your Reply: Oh God!, How u changed the verse, it is seeing able, see the translation of others,

MY REPLY :- Let us see the translation of Sakir.

SHAKIR: A command from Us; surely We are the senders (of messengers), A mercy from your Lord, surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing, (44:5-6)

R.K translated as ‘it is a predetermined command from us that we send messenger’ whereas Sakir translated the same as ‘A command from us we are the senders of messengers…

I find no difference from the above two. If you find, please tell me

Moreover, what is your proof that other translations of Qur’an besides R.K. are right? All the translators translated the Qur’an influenced by fabricated prophetic hadith except R.K’s. So other translations definitely support the doctrine of fabricated hadith. So I think that R.K.’s translation at least free from the doctrine of corrupted hadith.


Quote: this verse is being discussed already so much that I should not say more about this. However, this verse does not mean that Allah will send a messenger after Muhammad for more guiadance of Humanbeing as religion. Even if I agree that there will come a messenger after Muhammad (pbuh), he will not be among us human being.


MY REPLY :-Your understanding is wrong. I never told you that Allah will send a messenger after Muhammad FOR MORE GUIDANCE. The only Guidance for us is Nobel Qur’an and nothing else. This verses says us that the duty of this particular messenger will only to confirm the existing scripture.


2ndly, the verse 3:81 does not say us that the messenger who will come after Muhammad will be from ANGEL or from other creatures except human being. This verse says about prophets, who are human being and naturally the messenger will be from human being.


Quote: ha…hah….haha, what I said it is because of my understanding, and my understand or knowledge never can be equal to what Allah Almighty posses. Therefore I m right to my words, but I think u have full knowledge and confirmation what u know. Is’nt?????? Ha…hah….ha…


MY REPLY:- Your understanding is that ‘I am on wrong path’ as you claimed through your earlier reply, pl. see that. But at the same time you also opined that ‘Allah knows the best, who is on right path’. O.K.

Now my question is when you know that ‘Allah knows the best, who is on the right path’ then how could you claim with certainty that I am on wrong path??? Your own statement contradicts yourself. Not only that, again you claimed that you are right in your words!!!! Brother why do you talk like a frantic man??? Ha…..haha…………..haaahhaa.


To be continued………….
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, February 22, 2007  -  11:50 PM Reply with quote
After the Holy Qur’an, the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (sws) is the source of faith in Islam. It needs to be appreciated that all higher religions, in addition to their sacred texts, have a set of rites, rituals, manners, mores, etiquette and religious practices. Together with the doctrine and the conceptual content contained in the scriptures, these practices form the whole religion. Islam also has a set of such practices. These practices are not all of equal importance. Some of them are considered mandatory while the others just introduce manners or etiquette or they are symbolic in nature, signifying larger realities of faith. Among all such practices and mores, the most dear to the Muslims are those that

• are essentially religious in nature
• were instituted by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (sws), (who is the only personality in Islam having the right to declare anything religious) and
• have reached us through the reliable historical process of tawa#tur1. This means


1. When we say that the Sunnah has reached us to Tawatur we mean to say that so that such a large number of people have transmitted the Sunnah acts in each generation starting from the Companions (rta) that the Sunnah acts have bee rendered beyond any alteration in any manner).
These practices are called the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (sws).
Since Islam claims to have been the religion of all humanity since Adam (sws), and claims that Noah (sws), Abraham (sws), Moses (sws), David (sws) and Jesus (sws) were all Muslims, it immediately comes forward to lay claim on the entire heritage of these noble personalities. For Muslims, however, the personality of Abraham (sws) is of particular importance.

(adapted from studying islam courses)
http://www.studying-islam.org/coursedetail.aspx?ccode=DLC/S/1
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, February 22, 2007  -  11:54 PM Reply with quote
Abraham (sws) stands at the junction where three world religions meet. He is revered by all the three Semitic faiths - Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The religious practices initiated by Abraham (sws) (of course under divine guidance) are of particular significance to Islam. The religious rites and rituals instituted by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (sws) are almost the same as those included in Abraham’s tradition of faith.

The teachings of Abraham (sws) were conveyed to his sons among whom his first-born Isma’il (sws) finally settled down in Arabia where Bani Isma‘il (children of Isma‘il) lived and multiplied. Abraham’s younger son Isaac (sws), and Isaac’s son Yaqoob (Israel) founded the clan of Bani Isra‘il (Children of Israel). Abraham’s teachings and practices were inherited by both the tribes, which developed independently.

The impact of Abraham’s teachings is conspicuous in the history, faith and practice of the Jews, in the form of prayers, fasts, circumcision etc. These practices have in fact remained the single most important distinguishing feature between the Jews and the Gentiles (non-Jews). During the days of Jesus (sws), it was extremely convenient for the Jews to divide the world population on the basis of a practice that began with Abraham (sws), i.e. circumcision. The Jews split the entire population into those who were circumcised and those who were not. The Jews were required to remain fastened to Abraham’s tradition, and came to be known as the progeny of Abraham (sws). In fact their identity as a separate nation owes itself to the personality of Abraham (sws).

(adapted from studying islam courses)

http://www.studying-islam.org/coursedetail.aspx?ccode=DLC/S/1

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