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waseem

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Sunday, October 29, 2006  -  7:06 AM Reply with quote
my dear brother perv 1 salaam

I appreciate your knowledge and time involved in answering. Brother, I fully acknowledge my limitations of knowledge. However, one discusses his views so that he can debate, discuss and contrast opinions with others. The desire is to open mindedly accept Haq or what is right and to learn from ones' more learned collegues.

In my humble opinion, we all have views on subjects, as I see it, we should debate our views, the reasons behind them and then Allah knows best. If someone accepts ,fine, if someone feels they are happy with what they already know, fine,.

As I understand from the Qur'an, Allah told the prophet Mohammad pbuh that it is He who changes the hearts of people. We have the example of Prophet Mohammad pbuh uncle Abu Talib, Hazrat Nooh, son , hazrat Abraham,s father and Hazrat Lut's wife. As I see it our responsibility is to present ,what we believe is the truth, appropriately. After that Allah knows best.

If I have transgressed the bounderies in this debate I apologise.

In need of your prayers
waseem

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Monday, October 30, 2006  -  8:42 AM Reply with quote
Verse 2;62 This is my understanding as translated by Moiz Amjad on Understanding Islam web site.

[now] and those, who became Jews and the Nazarenes[23] and the Sabaeans[24], whoever TRUELY believes in God and the Day of Judgment and does good deeds [in keeping with his belief], they shall have their reward with their Lord. There they shall neither fear [the future] nor regret [the past][25]. (62)


Seen in the correct perspective, the verse promises eternal bliss to those who TRUELY believe in God and the Day of Judgment and do good deeds. If a person qualifies on the stated criteria, then whether he be from among the Jews, the Christians, the Sabians or the believers in the new Prophet, he shall be entered into the eternal bliss of paradise[3].

However, it should remain clear that according to the Qur'an, knowingly ascribing partners to God is, in effect, a rejection of God. Thus, if a person believes in God and also ascribes partners to Him, his belief would not be accepted on the Day of Resurrection. The Qur'an (Ghaafir 40: 42) says:



[O my people,] you call me toward rejecting God and to ascribe to Him partners about which I do not have any knowledge, while I call you to [the path of] the Powerful, the Oft-forgiving.


My limited understanding on this matter is that by truely what we mean is they are not knowingly denying the truth. i.e they understand that God cannot have a son but because of cultural, family social and religious bias refuse to accept the Truth when revealed to them. I personally feel that if a prson accepts a monthesisat religion and follows it properly without bias and the haq was either never revealed to him or with all his heart never enetered his heart he will be judged for the knowledge revealed on him.
for ex. somone living near teh North pole and Islam was never presented to him. The issue is knowingly rejecting the truth.

I wrote before that religion consists of belief and practices. The Quran tells us about beliefs and also about the practices. But what about the practical way of doing those practices.
What about namaz? Can we decipher from the Qur'an what is its content, what we recite in it what are the timings, how to perform an abulution.

If Islam is a religion that solely consists of beliefs then fine the Qur'an is the sole source of our beliefs. How did we learn to say namaz. We were shown by the Prophet Mohammad pbuh and it was then transferred from generation after generation by the consensus of Ummah. What other proof do we have for saying namaz?


The same for the Qur'an. The Qur'an we have has initially been learnt by heart by sahabhi.later written down by Hazrat Usman rta. WE do not possess a written copy by prophet Mohammad pbuh.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Monday, October 30, 2006  -  9:46 AM Reply with quote
Salam brother,

Quote :- But what about the practical way of doing those practices.
What about namaz? Can we decipher from the Qur'an what is its content, what we recite in it what are the timings, how to perform an abulution.

How did we learn to say namaz.

REPLY :- Several times I answered to the above question from various questioneries. Please see that.


Quote:- We were shown by the Prophet Mohammad pbuh and it was then transferred from generation after generation by the consensus of Ummah. What other proof do we have for saying namaz?


REPLY:- This is conjecture and I already told by my earlier mail that ‘it is another source besides Qur’an’ and we are forbade to accept any other source(s) as source of Islam besides Qur’an.

How could you sure that this theory “coming from generations after generations” is 100% right??? What is the CRITERION (FURQAN) to judge this theory???


Quote:- The same for the Qur'an. The Qur'an we have has initially been learnt by heart by sahabhi.later written down by Hazrat Usman rta. WE do not possess a written copy by prophet Mohammad pbuh.

REPLY :- Please correct your knowledge about Quran. Prophet Muhammad was the first to write down the Quran revealed to him and when he died , the whole Quran was completely written, although not in one book, but rather on pieces of woods, papers, palm leaves, bones…etc. It was the first Khalifa, Abu Bakr who collected the Quran into one book. The manuscript on which the Qur'an was collected, remained with Abu Bakr and then with Umar (the second Khalifa), and after him, it remained with Hafsa, 'Umar's daughter and one of the Prophet's wives
This copy of the Quran, was the only copy made after Muhammad's own copy. It is from that copy that Uthman, the third Khalifa, made other copies to distribute to different regions of the Islamic Empire. Uthman returned Hafsa's copy of the Quran to her. Her copy however was later burned by Marwan b. Hakam (d.65/684).
Almighty Allah promised that HE will preserve the Qur’an and HE preserved It, not any Tom, dick and Harry.

Peace
Samsher
oosman

USA
Posted - Monday, October 30, 2006  -  3:17 PM Reply with quote
Samsher,

Ok I agree with your interpreteation of 2:62.

I still do not understand how you can call someone kafir one who believes in God, but believes in hadith out of ignorance or lack of knowledge. Such a person is not intentionally doing shirk, he thinks the hadiths are accurate narrations.

Personally I am very suspicious of hadith, but I still dont see how someone is a kafir for believing them in error.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, October 31, 2006  -  11:24 AM Reply with quote
Salam,

Quote:- Ok I agree with your interpreteation of 2:62.

I still do not understand how you can call someone kafir one who believes in God, but believes in hadith out of ignorance or lack of knowledge. Such a person is not intentionally doing shirk, he thinks the hadiths are accurate narrations.

Personally I am very suspicious of hadith, but I still dont see how someone is a kafir for believing them in error.


REPLY :- Did you not read my earlier reply dated October 23, 2006? I am once again sending herewith as follows;

“Any one who follows hadith or anything else as his/her RELIGIOUS SOURCE BESIDES Qur’an, he/she is IDOLWORSHIPPER”.

This is an excuse to say that “…..person believes in hadith out of ignorance or lack of knowledge or ……..person is not intentionally doing shirk, he thinks the hadiths are accurate narrations…etc…etc.

We are told that we should not accept any other source as source of Law besides Qur’an(6:114)

Almighty God also says that Qur’an is easy to understand

”We have made it (the Quran) easy to understand and in your own tongue (language) may you take heed.” 44:58

No one will be thrown into hell for not knowing that the number of heavens is seven as in (Sura 2, verse 29), or for not knowing that God supported Moses with nine miracles as in (Sura 17, verse 101), or that the tribe of Saleh was called Thamoud as in (Sura 11, verse 61). ON THE OTHER HAND, WE WILL ALL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE IF WE SHOULD GIVE FALSE TESTIMONY, DECEIVE ORPHANS OF THEIR MONEY OR ASSOCIATE ANY NAME WITH THE NAME OF GOD.

The Quran was not only revealed for the intellectuals or the scholars, but also for the unlearned and simple folk who may not be as clever. For that specific reason, and because God is the Most Fair, He deliberately made sure that law giving verses in particular, and by which we will be held accountable to, are very clear and straightforward.

Moreover, it is because God's justice and fairness that the law giving verses are made very clear and starightforward. Thus no injustices will be inflicted on anyone. This is made quite clear in the Quran in numerous verses such as :


“God does not inflict an atom’s weight of injustice.” 4:40


An example of the law giving verses that are quite straightforward is the verse that specifies the steps of ablution:


“O you who believe, when you observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), you shall wash your faces, wash your arms to the elbows, wipe your heads and wash your feet to the ankles.” 5:6

This simple order from God is put in such simple and direct words that it can hardly be expressed in simpler or more direct words.

Another example;- Qur’an says that we should offer our Salat in maintaining Moderate Tone(audible tone).17:110. Now if any one claims that he/she does not know what does mean to say audible tone and thus he/she follows hadith….to understand the commandments of this verse, then it will be an excuse for him/her and no excuse will be granted on the day of judgement.

[6:22] On the day when we summon them all, we will ask the idol worshipers, "WHERE ARE THE IDOLS YOU SET UP?"

[6:23] Their disastrous response will be, "BY GOD OUR LORD, WE NEVER WERE IDOL WORSHIPERS."

[6:24] NOTE HOW THEY LIED TO THEMSELVES, and how the idols they had invented have abandoned them.

[6:25] SOME OF THEM LISTEN TO YOU, BUT WE PLACE VEILS ON THEIR HEARTS TO PREVENT THEM FROM UNDERSTANDING, AND DEAFNESS IN THEIR EARS. THUS, NO MATTER WHAT KIND OF PROOF THEY SEE, THEY CANNOT BELIEVE. Thus, when they come to argue with you, the disbelievers say, "These are tales from the past."

[6:26] THEY REPEL OTHERS FROM THIS (QURAN), AS THEY THEMSELVES STAY AWAY FROM IT, AND THUS, THEY ONLY DESTROY THEMSELVES WITHOUT PERCEIVING.


Peace
Samsher
waseem

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Tuesday, October 31, 2006  -  12:47 PM Reply with quote
what if someone is reading hadith to learn about the historical record of that time and about the life history of Prophet Mohamamd pbuh. If someone reads hadith not as a source of religion.
Zulfee

USA
Posted - Wednesday, November 01, 2006  -  3:17 PM Reply with quote
quote:

REPLY:- It is your choice whether you agree with me or not but the case is COMPLETELY TRUE that “if any one follows any other source(s) as his source(s) of religious law besides the only Qur’an, then he is IDOL WORSHIPPER and not Muslim”. So I told you this “As far as religious guidance is concerned we should not take any other source(s) as source of law besides Qur’an and I hope you will have to agree with me if you are Muslim”.

Excellent brother sksamshirali!!!!!!!!!!
quote:

Simple question for you. Do you think anyone who follows hadith is a kaffir? Answer yes, no, or don't know.

Haven’t you read the above answer of brother sksamshirali before putting this nonsense question? The answer is YES!!!
quote:

Hadith can thus explain these sources or provide the best example set by the Holy Prophet (pbuh); it cannot abrogate or contradict the basic corpus of religion residing in the Qur’an and the Sunnah.

Even after reading the whole Nobel Qura’n, those who have seal on their hearts, ears, eyes etc surely have such false beliefs.
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, November 02, 2006  -  4:46 AM Reply with quote
Why are we discussing religion with a person who has already peoven a lier in these forum before(posting with the name of Minara and then abm19).Samsher was saying he is not the one but then I shown him that he is the one who is posting with the name of Minara as well.

How can be we sure that this time he is not lying?
waseem

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, November 02, 2006  -  6:30 AM Reply with quote
My question was that It depends how you read something. a significant muslims do not beleiev that hadith is a source of Islam.I do not believe it is. But it has a historial record of that time and also tells us about the prophet pbh's likes and dislikes. My question is about becoming kafir after reading hadith. So are we saying that we can read Baghwat Gita or any others religions Holy Book to undertsand and contrast, that is fine. But if we read our owns prophet pbuh life history from a historical persective we become a non believer?. The Christians have not been addressed as polythesists despite their belief about Christ in the Qur'an .
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, November 02, 2006  -  8:52 AM Reply with quote
quote:

what if someone is reading hadith to learn about the historical record of that time and about the life history of Prophet Mohamamd pbuh. If someone reads hadith not as a source of religion.


REPLY :- It is clear that you people did not read/understand my earlier replies. I never told that we can't read Ahadith. We only told that 'we should not take IT or ANY OTHER SOURCE(S) AS SOURCE OF OUR RELIGIOUS LAW BESIDES THE ONLY QUR'AN'(6:114-115).

Now I hope it is clear for you.

Peace
Samsher.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, November 02, 2006  -  10:47 AM Reply with quote
Salam,

Oh! you(Usmani790)JOKER!!! How are you?? Again you came here?? How dare!!! Did you gain the ABC of Islam?? If yes then please let me know.

This is for all other visitors;

I proved several times through this fourm that Mr.usmani790 is a liar an idolworshiper because he don't believe that Qur'an is fully detailed, complete & perfect and is the only source of law(religious) of Islam,when Almighty God says us in the Qur'an that IT is FULLY DETAILED, COMPLETE, PERFECT and is the ONLY SOURCE OF LAW.(6:114-115)

He believes fabricated ahadith, the words of his another idol Mr. Taqi Usmani etc..etc.more than Qur'an and he accepts these idiotic pieces of information as his source of religious law besides Qur'an. According to Qur'an, he is the worst creature in the sight of GOD.

[42:21] They follow idols who decree for them religious laws never authorized by GOD. If it were not for the predetermined decision, they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, the transgressors have incurred a painful retribution.

[7:179] We have committed to Hell multitudes of jinns and humans. They have minds with which they do not understand, eyes with which they do not see, and ears with which they do not hear. They are like animals; no, they are far worse - they are totally unaware.


[8:22] The worst creatures in the sight of GOD are the deaf and dumb, who do not understand.


Samsher.
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, November 02, 2006  -  11:27 AM Reply with quote
Hi Samsher,I am fine


God knows better to whom these verses of Quran fit in.I know how good you undersand the Quran and how good you are folowing the Allah book.

This is you who believe that Rashad Khalifa as messenger of Allah without any reference from Quran not me.

And the people here are so simple that they got no any other person to discuss religion but you.I also did this mistake but not any more.

Take care


Edited by: usmani790 on Thursday, November 02, 2006 11:32 AM
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Friday, November 03, 2006  -  9:03 AM Reply with quote
Salam,

Hi...usmani790

Quote:- God knows better to whom these verses of Quran fit in.I know how good you undersand the Quran and how good you are folowing the Allah book.


REPLY:- Ofcourse God knows the best not better and He had already told that through His Qur’an.

Ha..ha.. brother I never tried to understand the Qur’an with the aid of lie, fabrication, garbage…as you always do. I believe that Qur’an is COMPLETE, PERFECT & FULLY DETAILED. But you don’t believe that. I believe on Almighty Allaha’s words & follow the Qur’an Alone. But you believe on what your idol Taqi Usman says, what your parents, ancestors did, you believe on conjecture, in favour of which nothing has been said in the Qur’an.

[7:3] You shall all follow what is revealed to you from your Lord; do not follow any idols besides Him. Rarely do you take heed.

[2:170] When they are told, "Follow what GOD has revealed herein," they say, "We follow only what we found our parents doing." What if their parents did not understand, and were not guided?

[2:171] The example of such disbelievers is that of parrots who repeat what they hear of sounds and calls, without understanding. Deaf, dumb, and blind; they cannot understand.

[6:114] Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.

[6:115] The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

[6:116] If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of GOD. They follow only conjecture; they only guess.

[6:117] Your Lord is fully aware of those who stray off His path, and He is fully aware of those who are guided.

Quote:- This is you who believe that Rashad Khalifa as messenger of Allah without any reference from Quran not me.


REPLY :- Do you remember once I told you that “you even don’t know how to drive two wheeler, yet you are willing to drive heavy weight four wheeler car!!!”

Brother at first you should learn how to drive two wheeler cycle or motor cycle and after that you should go to learn to drive four wheeler.

Whatever may be, whether Rashad Khalifa was messenger or not, it is not possible for you to understand this, because you believe that Prophet Muhammad was the last messenger, but you did not give any reference from the Qur’an in support of your opinion. Also you believe on this false theory made by some long bearded mullah and enemy of islam that ‘all messengers were prophet but all prophets were not messengers’ to prove that Prophet Muhammad was the last messenger.

So at first you should learn the ABC of Islam, then try to understand the messengership of R.K.

Moreover, this forum is not the right place to discuss about Rashad Khalifa. Also I did not say anyone to believe on messengership of Rashad Khalifa.

“ We don’t require him if we follow ONLY QUR’AN as our SOURCE(religious) OF LAW.and Rashad Khalifa himself opined this.

He also said that “the moment they seek guidance from anything besides the Quran, no matter how "right" it seems, they fall into Satan's trap (see 63:1). For they have rejected God's word and set up another god besides God (18:57).

Quote:- And the people here are so simple that they got no any other person to discuss religion but you.

REPLY:- I am sure that the people here are(in this forum) are more educated and sensible, knowledgable than you are.

Quote:- I also did this mistake but not any more.

REPLY:- It is your choice. I can’t guide you. It is Almighty God who guides the people those who deserve the guidance. But He does not guide the disbelievers.

[28:56] You cannot guide the ones you love. GOD is the only One who guides in accordance with His will, and in accordance with His knowledge of those who deserve the guidance.

[19:76] GOD augments the guidance of those who choose to be guided. For the good deeds are eternally rewarded by your Lord, and bring far better returns.

[10:9] As for those who believe and lead a righteous life, their Lord guides them, by virtue of their belief. Rivers will flow beneath them in the gardens of bliss.


Peace
Samsher.
Zulfee

USA
Posted - Tuesday, November 07, 2006  -  2:55 PM Reply with quote
loveall
quote:

Now in which capacity you dare to use the words like “Idol worshippers” if someone in necessity tries to get help from the books of Ahadith to understand the Holy Quran?

What a nonsensical statement is!!!!!!!!!!!
Haven’t you read Noble Qura’n in detail and a long list of replies of brother sksamshirali, before giving such a nonsensical statement??????
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, November 10, 2006  -  9:41 PM Reply with quote
salaam samsher

Your topics are long but I like the fact your discussion is always Quranic based. However can I make a request that you make use of the tools available and use the facilities for quotation when you are quoting someone else's statement. As sometimes it is diificult to seprate which is your comment and which is the quote that you are replying to.
Not wishing to patronise: to put something as a quote, select the required and click on the 2nd from end from the top symbols. If you already know then apologies. It will, in my humble opinion, make it far easier to read what you have written.
regards
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Sunday, November 12, 2006  -  10:54 AM Reply with quote
salaam

quote:

Further you have told that why I was worried about the camel’s urine. It is because I am a medical doctor not only MBBS but beyond that too. I am curious to see the results of a research on the camel’s urine and I will Insha’Allah do suggest to the concerned specialty to forward the synopsis, for approval, to the higher authorities. If the research fails to find any useful ingredient in the camel’s urine then we can label it some unauthenticated Hadith


Not only you have a very poor understanding of Islam but also very poor understanding, of your supposed field, medicine.
regards

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