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oosman

USA
Posted - Monday, October 23, 2006  -  4:41 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Who called who a kafir?


Some people on this forum believe that anyone who does not believe like they do are kaffir. I was not referring to you though, but to the one who replied before you.

quote:

Treat these books as historical references


Let me clarify again - historical reference book does not mean religious book. I do not think people should derive fiqh from hadith books. Use it as history book, but not as religious book.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Monday, October 23, 2006  -  9:57 AM Reply with quote
Salam,


Quote:- Simple question for you. Do you think anyone who follows hadith is a kaffir? Answer yes, no, or don't know.


REPLY:- Any one who follows hadith or anything else as his/her RELIGIOUS SOURCE besides Qur’an, he/she is IDOLWORSHIPPER.


Peace
Samsher.
oosman

USA
Posted - Monday, October 23, 2006  -  8:18 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Simple question for you. Do you think anyone who follows hadith is a kaffir? Answer yes, no, or don't know.


My answer would be don't know.

Only Allah knows what is inside one's heart. I cannot say if someone is kaffir or not.

Even if someone appears to be a kafir, he might be doing it under some social or other pressure. I try not to judge individuals - it is Allah's job to do that.

On the other hand there are some people who appear to be very religious, but infact they are hypocrites or kafirs. One cannot say anything.

The holy Quran says some of the people from the Christians, Sabian, Jews and other monotheists will have no fear on the Day of Judgement. These people obviously do not and did not follow the Quran. The holy Quran has vindicated these pious people. Yet according to you anyone who follows some other source than the Quran is a kaffir!

Let us try and seek the guidance of Allah and not call anyone kaffir without knowledge that only Allah has.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, October 25, 2006  -  3:57 PM Reply with quote
Salaam

quote:

Let us try and seek the guidance of Allah and not call anyone kaffir without knowledge that only Allah has.


Ameen

quote:

Let me clarify again - historical reference book does not mean religious book. I do not think people should derive fiqh from hadith books. Use it as history book, but not as religious book.


Here is my reply again as to why hadith cannot be used as a source of history:-


quote:

The hadith were not collected to define isalmic history but to actually define islamic beliefs, rituals and were meant to be an integral part of Islam and that is exactly what the vast majority of their followers believe them to be.
Without doubt the hadiths have been the biggest source of corruption and division in Islam.At best the hadith were a misguded attempt to redefine Islam about 200 years after the completion of the Quran. At worst they are the work of the devil to corrupt Islam-as how else can you explain the source that tells that the Prophet Mohd was a Paedophile, Condoned Rape and torture without enraging the muslims throughout the history. That is because the hadith have deployed the clever trick of burying these sayings amongst so many so called good sayings that very few intially noticed them and now they are so ingrained in the Muslim psychy that so called muslims will go to bizzare lengths and arguements to justify these hadith.
There is no place in Islam for hadith either as source of history or as a part of deen. For they have brought nothing but destruction to this wonderful religion



regards
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, October 26, 2006  -  10:09 AM Reply with quote
Salam,

Mr. oosman could not be able to reply my question which I posed before him on 20th October 2006, Friday at 10:12AM.

MY OPINION :

Any one who follows ANYTHING BESIDES THE NOBEL QUR'AN e.g. Ahadith & Sunnah(fabricated and false attributed to Prophet Muhammad)Or any type of conjecture as his/her SOURCE(S) OF ISLAMIC LAW(religious)is not Muslim, he/she is IDOLWORSHIPPER according to Qur'an.. Some people advocate to follow these things;


"They insist upon following conjecture, when the guidance is given to them herein from their Lord." (53:23)


"There are those who advocate vain 'Hadith' causing diversion from the path of God, without knowledge, and fail to take such actions seriously; these have deserved humiliating retribution. And when our verses are recited to him, he turns away arrogantly, as if he never heard them; as if his ears are deaf; promise him painful retribution." (31:67)


God says that Quran is COMPLETE, PERFECT, & FULLY DETAILED, and that you shall not seek any other source:

"We did not leave anything out of this book, then all will be gathered before their Lord (for judgment). Those who do not believe our verses are deaf and dumb; in total darkness. God sends astray whomever He wills, and directs whomever He wills in the right path." (6:3839)


"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He revealed THIS BOOK FULLY DETAILED? (6:114)


"The word of your Lord is COMPLETE in truth & justice." (6:115)


"When God ALONE is advocated, the hearts of those who do not believe in the hereafter shrink with aversion. But when idols are mentioned besides Him, they rejoice "(39:45).


We exist in this world for one, and only one, purpose. As stated in Quran (67:12 & 51:56) we were created for the sole purpose of worshiping GOD ALONE.


Satan wanted to be a partner with God; a god beside God. Consequently, God created Adam to expose Satan's rebellious ideas. And God created us to show Satan, and all the angels that we can worship Him ALONE, without need for any partners.

The purpose of our existence, therefore, is to worship GOD ALONE. This is why the only unforgivable offense is idolworship. That is because once we idolize anyone, or anything, beside God, we fail the test.


We fulfill the purpose of our existence only if we succeed in worshiping GOD ALONE, without idolizing Muhammad, or Jesus, or Mary, or any saint, or any imam, or anyone, or anything.


When we seek "religious" instructions from Muhammad, or any other source beside God, we support Satan in his claim that God needs a partner. Therefore, those who worship God ALONE follow the instructions and teachings of GOD ALONE. God's teachings are complete, perfect, and fully detailed in Quran.

FINALLY: MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION

In your mind, can God survive ALONE???

Or, does God need Muhammad, in your mind, in order to be commemorated and worshiped???

In your mind, can GOD ALONE survive?

Or, does God need a partner, in your mind, such as Muhammad, Jesus, Mary, or some saint(s)???

Would you be perfectly happy and content if you knew about GOD ALONE, without Muhammad, Jesus, Mary, or any saint, or anyone, or anything?

Are you annoyed by talking about GOD ALONE?

When I keep talking about GOD ALONE, does this annoy you? Do you have to hear other names along with God? Can GOD ALONE survive in your mind?

When I repeat, and repeat, my talk about GOD ALONE, do you feel any repulsion? Or, are you happy and content with the talk about GOD ALONE???

Based on the Great Quranic criterion, as stated in 39:45, your answers to these questions provide the key to knowing yourself, and your destiny.


Peace
Samsher.
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, October 26, 2006  -  3:41 PM Reply with quote
Quote of perv1:
Without doubt the hadiths have been the biggest source of corruption and division in Islam.

Do you really think this is true, even though the Ahaadeeth themselves speak against sectarianism and divisions in religion?

Edited by: Nida_e_Khair on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 6:03 PM
oosman

USA
Posted - Thursday, October 26, 2006  -  6:13 PM Reply with quote
Mr sksamsherali,

The answer to your questions quoted below is YES.


quote:



In your mind, can GOD ALONE survive?

Would you be perfectly happy and content if you knew about GOD ALONE, without Muhammad, Jesus, Mary, or any saint, or anyone, or anything?

When I repeat, and repeat, my talk about GOD ALONE, do you feel any repulsion? Or, are you happy and content with the talk about GOD ALONE???




The answer to your questions quoted below is NO.

quote:



Or, does God need Muhammad, in your mind, in order to be commemorated and worshiped???

Or, does God need a partner, in your mind, such as Muhammad, Jesus, Mary, or some saint(s)???

Are you annoyed by talking about GOD ALONE?

When I keep talking about GOD ALONE, does this annoy you? Do you have to hear other names along with God? Can GOD ALONE survive in your mind?






The only thing that makes me sick is your repetition of the same thing a zillion time without trying to understand that the other guy might be saying the same thing or not.

I have answered your questions many times, but I don't think you bother reading replies.


And proof of that is you have not answered my question about the Christians, Sabians, Jews and other people who believe in one God and the Last day and do good. These people have been vindicated in the Quran. They will have no fear on the Day of Judgement. According to you only Quran is the true source of guidance. However you fail to realize that these other people neither follow the Quran, rather they follow their own scriptures which talk about Allah.

It is clear that it is not a crime to follow other sources of guidance as long as they lead you to monotheism and Allah. Otherwise these Christians, Jews, Sabians and monotheists would not be vindicated in the Quran.

Your logic and reasoning has been shattered to pieces.

Edited by: oosman on Thursday, October 26, 2006 6:17 PM
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, October 26, 2006  -  7:11 PM Reply with quote
salaam

quote:

Do you really think this is true, even though the Ahaadeeth themselves speak against sectarianism and divisions in religion


I assume from above that you are not referring to the point regarding hadith corrupting Islam (otherwise you would have commented on my points regarding how the hadith have portrayed prophet Mohd).
As for your point about hadith being against secterainism and division. EXACTLY WHICH HADITH ARE YOU REFERRING TO-THE ONES FOLLOWED BY THE SHIAS OR THE SUNNIES (and whilst you are answering this you would perhaps also explain how these seprate hadith promote non-secretaianism and avoid division into different sects)

regards
waseem

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, October 27, 2006  -  12:17 AM Reply with quote
Source of Religion

The Prophet or messenger of God is the solitary source of the religion; hence for Muslims Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is the only source for their religion. From the Holy Prophet (pbuh) the entire religion was disseminated to the Muslims by way of the Qur’an and the Sunnah.

Islam, like other religions, consists of two components; beliefs and practices. The beliefs have been stated in the Qur’an while the practices are embodied in both the Qur'an and the Sunnah.

Sunnah are those Abrahamic practices and rituals that were adopted and revived by the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), in some cases after modifications and additions, and instituted among his followers as integral part of God's religion.

Hadith

In Islamic terminology, it is defined as the individual-to-individual narratives ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh) regarding his sayings, actions, expressed or tacit approvals, his life history and personal description.

These include:

• Life history of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), including his meetings with people, important events in his time e.g. Holy wars as narrated by his followers.
• Record of the Prophet Mohammad’s (pbuh) everyday life, rituals and routines, these are those things that he liked but did not authorise their initiation as essential part of religion. These records reveal the Prophet’s (pbuh) excellent example(Uswa Al Hasana) in carrying out the directives of Islam.
• Record of answers to questions and explanations given by the Prophet (pbuh) to his followers.
• Record of any explanations about commandments in the Qur’an and the Sunnah by the Prophet (pbuh) to his followers.



The Qur’an and the Sunnah hold a pivotal place as the source of understanding of religion. The Sunnah and the Qur’an do not abrogate each other. They cannot be overruled by Hadith. Both these sources contain the entire religion. Hadith can thus explain these sources or provide the best example set by the Holy Prophet (pbuh); it cannot abrogate or contradict the basic corpus of religion residing in the Qur’an and the Sunnah. Hadith literature does not add to the content of religion; it offers an explanation of the Holy Qur’an and the Sunnah, and dictates sense and reason.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, October 27, 2006  -  7:29 PM Reply with quote
Salaam

Waseem I dont think you have read much of what has taken place on this particular thread otherwise you would not have written such a wishy washy article. I am not quite sure what your point is-but before I launch into million reasons why hadith are un-Islamic I suggest you read at least the last 7-8 pages of this particular thread.
As for your comment:

quote:

Hadith literature does not add to the content of religion; it offers an explanation of the Holy Qur’an and the Sunnah, and dictates sense and reason.

Just few points(yet again)
I see you are happy to accept explanation from a source which repeatedly contradicts itself and the Quran. This source also makes sense to you when it portrays the Prophet Mohd (the source of religion-according to yourself) as a paedophile, someone who condones rape and practices torture. Does all this make sense to you!
regards
waseem

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, October 27, 2006  -  8:15 PM Reply with quote
From the Holy Prophet (pbuh) the entire religion was disseminated to the Muslims by way of the Qur’an and the Sunnah.
The Qur’an and the Sunnah hold a pivotal place as the source of understanding of religion. The Sunnah and the Qur’an do not abrogate each other. They cannot be overruled by Hadith. Both these sources contain the entire religion.

Allah sent Divine Guidance to messengers and prophets through Holy scriptures. These Holy Scriptures were meant to be a scale (Mizan) between good and evil. They are also meant to be the means by which people solve and sort their mutual differences and are able to deal with everyday matters in just and fair manner.

The Qur’an is defined as the balance (Mizan) in whose scales everything must be weighed in order to ascertain the extent of truth found within that entity, and it is the criterion (Furqan) which like a sieve sifts out good from evil.

It is God who has sent down the Book in truth that is the Mizan…….. (42:17)

Blessed is He Who sent down the Furqan to His servant that it may be an admonition to the people of the world. (25:1)

The Qur’an is the Final Testament of the Almighty revealed to mankind. It is the Only Divine Book which is today found in its original language and form, preserved word for word. As such it is the guardian over all previous Divine Books.

brother please read these again. The entire religion is between the Qur'an and Sunnah. The position of teh Qur'an remains unchallenged .It is the scale or balance in which everything must be gaged.

Currently we have two extreme views about hadith. one group totally rejects hadith. the other group considers hadith to be a source of religion.

As I see it. If someone feels comfortable with teh Qur'an and sunnah I have no problem. If someone reads hadith PROVIDED they accept that hadith is not a source of islam and cannot contradict the Qur'an I have no problem.

I quote Amin Ahsen Islahi. he stated that if he read a hadith and it was against the techings of teh Qur'an he would have no hesitation in rejecting it.

As far as your mention of some hadith that are derrogatory about prophet Mohammad pbuh, any Muslim does not need a scholar to tell him that they are unacceptable.

As I see it hadith are like the Bible. we accept that Bible is not in its true shape and we accept that alterations have been made, but still it also contains history, shariah, life history of prophets and wisdom, look at teh sermon of Mount by Hazrat Eissa.pbuh.

Brother, If someone feels he/she dos not read hadith and the Qur'an and sunnah are enough, AlhamdoLlilah.If someone reads hadith at its proper place and with discretion, AlahamdoLillah. SO long as they do not extract religious regulations and try to use a hadith as a source of religion.

I feel it is essential to define and ascertain the proper place for hadith and leave people to amke their own assessments. Hand on heart is every hadith derrogatory towards prophet Mohammad pbuh. Let us be open minded.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, October 27, 2006  -  9:21 PM Reply with quote
Salaam

Again I am at a loss to explain what exactly is your point. The quranic references you have given have no connection with any plausible point you are trying to make.
I am familiar with the Quran and how to access any chapter verse, any techincal point within it. Can you tell me how I can access this Sunnah that you keep quoting as in the mosque I attend there are three different groups who each pray in a different manner and each claims to be following this so called sunnah-can you tell me how I can acces this sunnah that you keep mentioning so I can understand which group is right. I can give them the Quranic refernces but the sunnah.... you enlighten me.

quote:

Hand on heart is every hadith derrogatory towards prophet Mohammad pbuh. Let us be open minded.


I see so i take it from above that you accept there are hadith which are derrogatory towards the prophet and yet you still seem to think they have a role to play in Islam because not all of them derrogatory towards the prophet wow quite astounding logic really.

Regards
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, October 27, 2006  -  9:46 PM Reply with quote
salaam

quote:

I quote Amin Ahsen Islahi. he stated that if he read a hadith and it was against the techings of teh Qur'an he would have no hesitation in rejecting it
.

Wow again what a logic-otherwise what would he have done.. reject the Quran. The reason of why I responded to this ridiculous point is that here is this guy saying that anything that contradicts the Quran he will reject it. As a muslim what else would you expect him to say... few alternatives please.
If this is the level of intellect in this debate no wonder we are going round in circles.

regards
waseem

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, October 28, 2006  -  4:31 AM Reply with quote
My dear brother salaam. This is my understanding on the place of Hadith.

the total basic content of Islam, which the Prophet (pbuh) was ordained to teach to all those present is completely found in the Qur'an and the Sunnah alone. Hadith, because of its very nature (of transmission), cannot add to, alter or subtract from this basic content of Islam that we have in the shape of the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Whatever exists in the body of Hadith, besides a historical account of the life and times of the Prophet (pbuh), is basically related to:

the explanation and clarification of the directives given in the Qur'an and the Sunnah; and

the ideal example set by the Prophet (pbuh) in carrying out the directives of the Qur'an and the Sunnah.

Hadith is of great value as it can, sometimes, teach us how the Prophet (pbuh) understood and explained Islam and what was his excellent example (uswah-e-hasanah) in carrying out the directives of Islam. But, even with this importance, Hadith cannot add to the total basic body of Islam, which is restricted to what has been transmitted to us in the Qur'an and the Sunnah.
waseem

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, October 28, 2006  -  4:48 AM Reply with quote
My dear brother salaam

The two points that I wanted to clarify were
1. Are we saying that ALL hadith are corrupt or derogratory to Prophet pbuh.
2. That reading of hadith is haraam or un islamic.

In my opinion fristly

Hadith are not essential.
Hadith is not a source of religion.
In the Qur'an and sunnah we have the entire corpus of religion.
The clarification that I am seeking is that I may personally not want to read the hadith or believe them, however, am I right in saying no one should and are ALL the hadith untrue. I seek clarification between personal choice and dislike and what is haraam or unlawful in terms of religious belief. As I understand we need three conditions to be fulfilled

All those narratives that are not against the directives or any information provided by the Qur'an , the Sunnah, the established scientific or historical facts and have reached us through reliable sources MAY BE considered as accurate narratives of the sayings, actions, approvals etc. of the Prophet (pbuh).

I also totally agree with you that unreliable hadith are the biggest reason behind formation of sects in islam. Various sects have used hadith that suit them to make their point.

I apologise if my limited understanding and knowledge has upset you and the quality of debate. It was not intentional

Allah knows best
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, October 28, 2006  -  8:54 PM Reply with quote
Salaam waseem

You appear to be a good person and therefore if I offended you I apologise

The two points that I wanted to clarify were
1. Are we saying that ALL hadith are corrupt or derogratory to Prophet pbuh.
2. That reading of hadith is haraam or un islamic.

quote:

In my opinion fristly

Hadith are not essential.
Hadith is not a source of religion.

Excellent.

quote:

In the Qur'an and sunnah we have the entire corpus of religion.


Quran I completely agree. This sunna business I have studied the Quran extensively and can find no basis for it. You are not serious about something being part of religion which is passed by word of mouth and has so many variation (I have already pointed out the variations that exist).


quote:

The clarification that I am seeking is that I may personally not want to read the hadith or believe them, however, am I right in saying no one should and are ALL the hadith untrue.


The point is not whether to read or study them. I think it is a good idea to study them and then you fully understand how unislamic and damaging to the deen they are.


regards

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