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hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, July 21, 2007  -  7:59 AM Reply with quote
ur diagnosis is correct Dr.M but don't worry-the thread is continuing not necessarily in effort of satisfying the posters; but for our other members and visitors to the site as well who surf in quest of knowledge.

it's also sad that some of our senior site 'n forum members like sk-with us since a while-hvn't read any of our courses/studies yet. whats the purpose of joining educational sites whence we do not wish to read/learn-specially if one is so confident that whatever he/she knows from before is the final Right!is then best to initiate one's site and continue to post the 'Forever Understood' facts there.
arguements without learning the facts being offered just wastes self's and others'times.
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, July 21, 2007  -  8:03 AM Reply with quote
Fifty Common Misconceptions about Islam

Shehzad Saleem
http://www.renaissance.com.pk/June07.htm

5. The Qur’an is a Manual of Complete Knowledge


Some people are of the view that the Qur’an contains knowledge of everything and in it is found the answer to every question which comes to our mind. The following verse is generally presented to substantiate this view.



مَا فَرَّطْنَا فِي الكِتَابِ مِن شَيْءٍ ثُمَّ إِلَى رَبِّهِمْ يُحْشَرُونَ (6: 38)

We did not leave anything out of this Book. Then all will be gathered before their Lord [for judgement]. (6:38)



A little deliberation on the context of the verse shows that the verse has a specific connotation and it is incorrect to draw this conclusion from it.

6:37 says that the disbelievers demand that they be shown some sign so that they may profess belief. It is evident from later verses that the word “sign” actually refers to the punishment the disbelievers were threatened with by the Prophet (sws) if they rejected him.



قُلْ أَرَأَيْتُكُم إِنْ أَتَاكُمْ عَذَابُ اللّهِ أَوْ أَتَتْكُمُ السَّاعَةُ أَغَيْرَ اللّهِ تَدْعُونَ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ بَلْ إِيَّاهُ تَدْعُونَ فَيَكْشِفُ مَا تَدْعُونَ إِلَيْهِ إِنْ شَاء وَتَنسَوْنَ مَا تُشْرِكُونَ (6: 40-41)

Say: “What do you think, if there come upon you the punishment of God, or the Hour [that you dread]. Would you then call upon other than God? – [Answer] if you are truthful! Nay, – On Him would you call, and if it be His Will, He would remove [the distress] which occasioned your call upon Him, and you would forget [the false gods] which you join with Him!” (6:40-41)



Consequently, the disbelievers have been quoted by the Qur’an at many instances saying that they would like to see the punishment they are being threatened with in order to see whether Muhammad (sws) was a true messenger of God. At all such places, they are answered that if this sign is shown to them, then they would not be given any further respite – they would be destroyed. So it is better that instead of demanding this ultimate sign, they pay heed to the numerous other signs found in abundance around them and within their own being.

This is precisely what has been stated in 6:37 and at the beginning of 6:38:



وَقَالُواْ لَوْلاَ نُزِّلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِّن رَّبِّهِ قُلْ إِنَّ اللّهَ قَادِرٌ عَلَى أَن يُنَزِّلٍ آيَةً وَلَـكِنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ لاَ يَعْلَمُونَ وَمَا مِن دَآبَّةٍ فِي الأَرْضِ وَلاَ طَائِرٍ يَطِيرُ بِجَنَاحَيْهِ إِلاَّ أُمَمٌ أَمْثَالُكُم (6: 37-38)

And they say: “Why is not a Sign sent down to him from his Lord?” Say: “God has certainly power to send down a Sign: but most of them understand not. There is not an animal [that lives] on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but [forms part of] communities like you.” (6:37-8)



The disbelievers are told that God has all the power to send down such a sign, but most of them do not know its implications. For when such a sign is sent, it is a signal of destruction for the people. So instead of demanding such a sign, they should look around and they will find plenty of signs. If they contemplate even on the animals around them and on the birds above them they will find many lessons. They will find in the individual and collective lives of these species the manifestations of the Almighty’s mercy, power, providence and wisdom. These manifestations show that this world has been made for a specific purpose by the Almighty.

In other words the expression: “We did not leave anything out of this book” if taken in context means that as far as signs to profess belief are concerned, this Book has plenty and that nothing has been left out of it. The verse does not imply that the Qur’an contains guidance on everything.

Moreover, it needs to be appreciated that man has been blessed with innate guidance which in most cases is able to guide him in various affairs of life. It is only at certain cross roads where man has the data but is not equipped to decide the right line of action or in certain other spheres where he has no data at all to make decisions that divine revelation comes to his rescue.


Sorry Sis Henna, I've already posted this topic on p-54

no probs I;had seen that- things may need repeating as n wen (nice to see you-after a while though hoping all well at your end )

Edited by: hkhan on Saturday, July 21, 2007 12:26 PM
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, July 24, 2007  -  8:54 AM Reply with quote
Brother Mujahid,

I knew too from long long ago why you people constantly arguing with me from Dec.2004 without understanding my any point and the Qur’anic commandment.


The Qur’an commanded Muhammad also commands us that “ WE SHOULD NOT SEEK/FIND ANY OTHER SOURCE BESIDES IT, BECAUSE IT IS FULLY DETAILED, COMPLETE & PERFECT” (6:114 -115).


Brother, there is huge difference between the sayings that ‘reading different books and accepting them as Source of Law(religious)’. We can read Veda, Ramayana, Mahabharat and we can know the names of various characters….mentioned in these books but we can’t take them as OUR SOURCE OF RELIGIOUS LAW. We can read anything but can’t take them as our SOURCE OF LAW. Our Only Source of Law (religious) is Only Qur’an. But you people are doing the same blunder i.e. you people read & accept other books i.e. hadith, history….. as Source of your Law(religious) besides Qur’an. So there is very very big difference between my thinking and yours.


Now come to my statement. I told you that :


“The contemporary Arabs of Muhammed listened to the Quran and appreciated its literature excellence but many of them did not believe them”

The following Qur’anic verses supports my statement;

[9:97] The Arabs are the worst in disbelief and hypocrisy, and the most likely to ignore the laws that GOD has revealed to His messenger. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

[9:101] Among the Arabs around you, there are hypocrites. Also, among the city dwellers, there are those who are accustomed to hypocrisy. You do not know them, but we know them. We will double the retribution for them, then they end up committed to a terrible retribution.

So brother, I wanted to give you this message.

Yes, I gave you the name of Abu Jahl, Abu Lahab etc. etc, but these are for just example and I knew this by reading other books. But think, if I had not read this book where I found the name of Abu Jahl, Abu Lahab etc..etc.., Yet the message of Qur’an would remain be same i.e “The contemporary Arabs of Muhammed listened to the Quran and appreciated (may be) its literature excellence but many of them did not believe them”.


Quote:- Where does Quran say that Abu Jahl and Abu Lahab were Muhammad’s sws uncles? It is again either in Ahadith or history.


Reply:- Actually I came to know these information by reading book, the name of which is ‘Hocus-Pocus Book’. So What??? I never take it or these information as my ‘Source of Law’.

Samsher.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, July 24, 2007  -  9:09 AM Reply with quote
Salam hk,

Q:- Some people are of the view that the Qur’an contains knowledge of everything. The following verse is generally presented to substantiate this view.

We did not leave anything out of this Book. Then all will be gathered before their Lord [for judgement]. (6:38)

A little deliberation on the context of the verse shows that the verse has a specific connotation and it is incorrect to draw this conclusion from it.


Reply:- Your imagination is totally wrong. One thing you should always remember that - you should not take any decision regarding any Qur’anic subject by reading only one or two verses. You should consider All the verses of Qur’an regarding that subject and after that you should take decision.

Now pl. read:

It is not the view of some people as you claimed. It is Qur’an, which says us this. The Quran categorically states that the Word of God is complete in the Quran.

“The Word of your Lord is COMPLETE IN TRUTH AND IN JUSTICE.” 6:115

”Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, WHEN HE HAS REVEALED TO YOU THIS BOOK FULLY DETAILED?” 6:114

THE WORD OF YOUR LORD IS COMPLETE, IN TRUTH AND JUSTICE. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.” 6:115

”This is not fabricated ‘hadith’; this (Quran) confirms all previous scriptures, PROVIDES THE DETAILS OF EVERYTHING, AND IS A GUIDANCE AND MERCY FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE.” 12:111

”We have revealed to you this book to PROVIDE EXPLANATIONS FOR EVERYTHING, and guidance and mercy and good news for the submitters.” 16:89

[10:37] This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than GOD. It confirms all previous messages, AND PROVIDES A FULLY DETAILED SCRIPTURE.

In spite of the very clear words : “fully detailed”, “details of everything” and “explanations for everything” You claimed that the Quran does not cover the details!!!! Very Sad.


Q:- and in it is found the answer to every question which comes to our mind.


Reply:- Again you are wrong. The Qur’an is a book of Guidance. It is not a book of Recipe…………. All that require for our guidance/salvation are in the Qur’an in full.

[2:185] Ramadan is the month during which the Quran was revealed, PROVIDING GUIDANCE FOR THE PEOPLE, CLEAR TEACHINGS, AND THE STATUTE BOOK.

[17:9] This Quran guides to the best path, and brings good news to the believers who lead a righteous life, that they have deserved a great recompense.

[10:37] This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than GOD. It confirms all previous messages, and provides a fully detailed scripture.

[2:97] Say, "Anyone who opposes Gabriel should know that he has brought down this (Quran) into your heart, in accordance with GOD's will, confirming previous scriptures, and providing guidance and good news for the believers."

If anything would had required extra for our salvation, then He definitely would have given in the Qur’an. God’s words never run short.


[18:109] Say, "If the ocean were ink for the words of my Lord, the ocean would run out, before the words of my Lord run out, even if we double the ink supply."

So, Qur’an is FULLY DETAILED, PERFECT & COMPLETE GUIDANCE FOR US.


Q:- In other words the expression: “We did not leave anything out of this book” if taken in context means that as far as signs to profess belief are concerned, this Book has plenty and that nothing has been left out of it. The verse does not imply that the Qur’an contains guidance on everything.

Reply:- Your imagination is AGAIN WRONG. I have already discussed about this above.

Samsher
Mujahid

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, July 25, 2007  -  8:47 AM Reply with quote
Many thanks brother Usmani.I learned a lot through this discussion.Our Lord will be our judge on the day when no soul shall have a choice but to speak the truth.
waseem

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, July 26, 2007  -  7:00 AM Reply with quote
From a neutral perspective, with respect bro Shamsher! In my humble opinion, Your responses are lacking substance and you are avoiding both accepting the facts laid out and answering them appropriately.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, July 26, 2007  -  7:43 AM Reply with quote
Reply:- Could you please tell me brother,which facts that I tried to avoid and how much Proof do you want from the Qur’an?

Samsher.

Edited by: ibrahim on Thursday, July 26, 2007 9:12 AM
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Monday, July 30, 2007  -  8:43 AM Reply with quote
Salam,

Again brother please tell me which Qur'anic facts (according to you) that I tried to avoid and how many Proofs do you want from the Qur’an?

Samsher.
waseem

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Monday, July 30, 2007  -  10:30 AM Reply with quote
Salam brother

The questions asked and your responses are all on the forum. I feel there is no point in discussion for the sake of forum. Respected brothe rin Islam, if you are clear in your heart and mind about your belief, then that is fine,We are all only answerable to Allah, and not to each other. My only advice is to never close the door of possibility about opposing views. We must seek and follow the path of Truth. On the day of judgement, we are answerable for our actions and beliefs.Best wishes and kind regards
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Monday, July 30, 2007  -  2:47 PM Reply with quote
as sk has yet not been able to elaborate about 'salah' what dr mujahid Q; we quote the relevant details as explained in our courses-vide infra. (for our members-plz note-studying islam does not aim to satisfy any individual re: his/her temporary/ongoing concerns despite replying to their Q ;it rather works at a broader level to educate on a wider scale and ofcourse individually as n wen reqd. may God accept every 1z efforts for the Right)


Although the directives on Salah, Zakah and Hajj have also been mentioned in the Holy Qur’an, but the Holy Qur’an leaves no doubt that these were actually pre-existing Abrahamic traditions which the Holy Prophet (sws) reintroduced after revival, addition and reformation. These are actually the Sunan, which Allah has
emphasized upon and confirmed.


When it commands the Muslims to offer the Salah (daily prayers) it does not find it necessary to define the form of prayers.

The Holy Qur’an has not coined the word Salah. It already existed among the Arabs with the same meaning. The Holy Prophet (sws) only corrected the errors that had crept in and instituted it as a Sunnah.

(adapted from Studying Islam courses-'Understanding the Sunnah')
Rakhtal

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, July 31, 2007  -  4:07 PM Reply with quote
quote:

]as sk has yet not been able to elaborate about 'salah' what dr mujahid Q; we quote the relevant details as explained in our courses.

Are you trying to refute the Qura’nic claim that it is complete and fully detailed….?


[16.: 89]: وَيَوْمَ نَبْعَثُ فِي كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْهِمْ مِنْ أَنْفُسِهِمْ وَجِئْنَا بِكَ شَهِيدًا عَلَى هَؤُلاءِ وَنَزَّلْنَا عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ تِبْيَانًا لِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ وَهُدًى وَرَحْمَةً وَبُشْرَى لِلْمُسْلِمِينَ

[16: 89]: We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide, a Mercy, and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

And, Are you also trying to prove that your so called courses are superior to Qura’n providing all the detail which the noble Qura’n doesn’t carry (as you do believe)?
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, August 01, 2007  -  8:56 AM Reply with quote
Salam brother waseem & hk,


R:- Why did you bypass my question brother? You claimed by saying as follows;

“Your responses are lacking substance and you are avoiding both accepting the facts laid out and answering them appropriately”.

In response to the above, I enquired from you by saying that “which Qur'anic facts (according to you) that I tried to avoid and how many Proofs do you want from the Qur’an?”


But you could not give any reference for that rather you advised me so forth & so on. Brother, if you are clear in your heart and mind about your claim, then you should point out this. However, for your kind information I say you that I never closed the door of any kind of views. I only know that about Islam Qur’an is the ONLY AND THE LAST/FINAL TRUTH AND IT IS THE ONLY CRETIERION with which everything regarding Islam must be compared.


Q:- as sk has yet not been able to elaborate about 'salah' what dr mujahid Q;


R:- Very laughing!!! You people could not yet been able to answer my only one question, yet you blamed me as above!!! Very strange!! I have already given the details of Salah from the Qur’an, but the people who can’t be able to see anything without the help of fabricated hadith, will never satisfy with this.


The Qur’an says that “we should offer our regular salat by maintaining MODERATE TONE i.e. neither too loudly nor secretly(17:110) and at this point I asked to you people a simple question i.e. in what manner do you offer your regular salat? Do you follow the above verse when you offer your regular salat? But you preferred to remain silent. You have not shown even any courage to give the answer of my above simple question, yet you are claiming that you gave the details of sala through your Hislamic Course forum!!! Very astonishing!!!


Samsher.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, August 01, 2007  -  9:05 AM Reply with quote
Salam Rakhtal,

Are you trying to refute the Qura’nic claim that it is complete and fully detailed….?

And, Are you also trying to prove that your so called courses are superior to Qura’n providing all the detail which the noble Qura’n doesn’t carry (as you do believe)?

Excellent Brother Rakhtal.

Samsher
waseem

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, August 01, 2007  -  11:07 AM Reply with quote
Respected brothers in Islam. I have already mentioned that discussion for the sake of discussion is a waste of time.I will re- empahsise that the QUr'an we believe in states call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and sincere exhortations and debate with them in manners that are appropriate.

I believe in Quran to be Meezan and Furqan.I also believe that Hadith is not a source of religion.

Most humbly, I state that we practice what we claim to believe in and are advocating on these forums.The true ethos of Islam must be reflected in our mannerisms.In my humble opinion Islam is not just about quoting and knowledge but its practical application.

The Questions asked by brother Mujahid, in my opinion remain unanswered, as there is no answer.I have no problem. You are happy in what you believe in, I am satisfied that what I know remains un cahallenged for the present.
Kind regards and best wishes
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, August 04, 2007  -  10:28 AM Reply with quote
thx every1 for your input;it is pleasing to discuss matters for broader aspects of understanding the facts in a friendly and healthy environment.
you all are welcome to post comments as n wen.


hv a great summer (and winter-southern hemisphere.. )[

green]wassala'm
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, August 07, 2007  -  10:47 AM Reply with quote
[b]Salam to All Believers(according to Qur’an),


Almighty God says in the Qur’an that IT is Infallible & Beacon, Fully Detailed, Complete, Perfect, Nothing shall Abrogate This, Full of Guidance, Easy to learn & The Only Source of Law (Religious).

[2:2] This scripture is infallible; a beacon for the righteous;

[6:114] Shall I Seek Other Than God As A Source Of Law, When He Has Revealed To You This Book Fully Detailed?

[6:115] The Word Of Your Lord Is Complete, In Truth And Justice. Nothing Shall Abrogate His Words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

[16:64] We have revealed this scripture to you, to point out for them what they dispute, and to provide guidance and mercy for people who believe.

[2:185] Ramadan is the month during which the Quran was revealed, Providing Guidance For The People, Clear Teachings, And The Statute Book.

[54:17] We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?

I am sure everyone, who is believer(Mumin), believes all the words of Almighty God’s mentioned in the above verses, except the disbeliever and idol worshipper.

[2:170] When they are told, "Follow what GOD has revealed herein," they say, "We follow only what we found our parents doing." What if their parents did not understand, and were not guided?

[2:171] The example of such disbelievers is that of parrots who repeat what they hear of sounds and calls, without understanding. Deaf, dumb, and blind; they cannot understand.

Now please look what brother Mujahid’s asked:

On July 5th he asked “how do they(who do not believe sunnah) say their prayers, if only they believe that 'salah'(five daily prayers) is an essential part of islam?

I have already replied to the above question on 9th July as follows:

Firstly, “You say what does mean to say ‘Sunnah’? Do you think that ‘Sunnah’ practices of Muhammad, were different from the teachings of Qur’an?”

But brother Mujahid could not be able till date to reply my above question although I know it is not possible for any one who follow fabricated sunnah of Muhammad to reply my question.

I also told in the same reply that I think Muhammad followed and practiced the Qur’an even without slightest alteration. So Muhammad’s Sunnah was Only Qur’an. So the fabricated sunnah, which have no references in the Qur’an, were not his sunnah e.g. offering daily salat in Mixed tone. This is the TRUTH, because Muhammad did not follow anything besides Qur’an AS HIS RELIGIOUS SOURCE and also QUR’AN IS COMPLETE, FULLY DETAILED & PERFECT”.(6:114-115).

Followers of Only Qur’an offer their daily Salah in that way which are mentioned in the Qur’an.

By the way, I also asked him through my same reply as follows;

You tried to claim that ‘from Qur’an no one can say salat means prayers’!!! Then brother, how could you know that ‘Salah’ means Prayer?? Who told you that?? Is it your Hadith(fabricated)?? Also do you think that Almighty God ordered us in the Qur’an that we should offer regular Salat, if we want to be redeemed, but He did not tell us in the said Qur’an how to offer it, when He also claimed in the same Qur’an that It(Qur’an) is COMPLETE, FULLY DETAILED, PERFECT etc..etc.”.!!!

But he also could not be able to reply my above question till date.

Brother Mujahid avoided my all questions and again on 9th July he asked me by saying as follows;

“I asked you a very simple question that do you believe in five daily prayers which the entire muslim ummah shias and sunnis united believe in,if the answer is yes,then please tell me how do you say it 'cause i cannot find it in the Quran”.

In reply to the above question, on 16th July I told as follows;

“Qur’an says that IT is FULLY DETAILED, COMPLETE & PERFECT but you have no belief in these Qur’anic words. You believed in Fabricated Hadith, which are not the SOURCE of Islamic Religious Law according to Qur’an . Brother what Shias, Sunnis…..etc..etc.. say IS NOT NECESSARILY BE ISLAM. Those who are Hindus, believe/say/think that the words of their religious books are the words of God and they believe in them and also in IDOLATRY. So what?. What is the difference between their thinking and your thinking, because you believe in Ahadith(fabricated) instead of Qur’an.

But again he could not been able to make any comment against my above statement.

to be continued.....

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