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Mujahid

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Monday, July 09, 2007  -  2:19 PM Reply with quote
Brother shamsher,

you write;

You tried to claim that ‘from Qur’an no one can say salat means prayers’!!! Alas!!! Then brother, how could you know that ‘Salah’ means Prayer?? Who told you that?? Is it your Hadith(fabricated)?? Also do you think that Almighty God ordered us in the Qur’an that we should offer regular Salat, if we want to be redeemed, but He did not tell us in the said Qur’an how to offer it, when He also claimed in the same Qur’an that It(Qur’an) is COMPLETE, FULLY DETAILED, PERFECT etc..etc..!!! Brother, do you not think that it is totally illogical. Think deeply brother.

Brother,i am trying my best to think very deeply but you are not helping me at all.I asked you a very simple question that do you believe in five daily prayers which the entire muslim ummah shias and sunnis united believe in,if the answer is yes,then please tell me how do you say it 'cause i cannot find it in the Quran.You were extremely sad to learn that i cannot see method of saying salah in the Quran.I am sure you are aware of the places or place in the Quran where this method is explained.Can you please give me the reference.Once you have shown me from the Quran the method of saying salah then insha'Allah we will discuss the meaning of the word salah mentioned in the Quran.
sincerely
waseem

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, July 13, 2007  -  11:06 AM Reply with quote
Sunnah is defined as that tradition of Prophet Abraham’s (sws) religion which the Prophet Muh@ammad (sws) instituted among his followers as religion after reviving and reforming it and after making certain additions to. The Qur’a#n has directed Muh@ammad (sws) to obey this Abrahamic tradition in the following words:

ثُمَّ أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ أَنِ اتَّبِعْ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ (123:16)
Then We revealed to you to follow the ways of Abraham, who was true in faith and was not among the polytheists. (16:123)
Mujahid

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, July 14, 2007  -  1:16 AM Reply with quote
Bro Waseem,
I am awaiting Brother shamsher Ali's reply.He will show me from Quran the method,the azkar,the timings and the rakahs of the 5 fixed prayers.However, i totally agree with your definition of sunnah.The question is that what is the 'Millat e Ibraheem' which Allah is directing prophet Muhammad pbuh to follow.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Monday, July 16, 2007  -  12:17 PM Reply with quote
Salam dear Mujahid(UK),

Brother, did you understand my opinion which I told you through my previous posts on July 05,2007? I told you “I think Muhammad followed and practiced the Qur’an even without slightest alteration. So Muhammad’s Sunnah was Only Qur’an. So the fabricated sunnah, which have no references in the Qur’an, were not his sunnah e.g. offering daily salat in Mixed tone. This is the TRUTH, because Muhammad did not follow anything besides Qur’an AS HIS RELIGIOUS SOURCE and also QUR’AN IS COMPLETE, FULLY DETAILED & PERFECT”.(6:114-115).


I also asked you a question through my earlier posts i.e. “Do you think that ‘Sunnah’ practices of Muhammad, were different from the teachings of Qur’an?” – But you skillfully avoided it.


You asked me a question i.e. “Do you believe in five daily prayers which the entire muslim ummah shias and sunnis united believe in, if the answer is yes, then please tell me how do you say it 'cause i cannot find it in the Quran. You were extremely sad to learn that i cannot see method of saying salah in the Quran.


Alas!!! Lastly, you proved what I had doubted before. Really, I amazed to know that you do not believe in Qur’an!! Qur’an says that IT is FULLY DETAILED, COMPLETE & PERFECT but you have no belief in these Qur’anic words. You believed in Fabricated Hadith, which are not the SOURCE of Islamic Religious Law according to Qur’an . Brother what Shias, Sunnis…..etc..etc.. say IS NOT NECESSARILY BE ISLAM. Those who are Hindus, believe/say/think that the words of their religious books are the words of God and they believe in them and also in IDOLATRY. So what?. What is the difference between their thinking and your thinking, because you believe in Ahadith(fabricated) instead of Qur’an. Brother do you know what does really mean to say ‘Believe in Qur’an’? It does not mean to give only leap service by saying ‘I believe…I believe…’. So’ We should ONLY BELIEVE IN QUR’AN AND WE SHOULD TREAT IT AS OUR ONLY SOURCE OF LAW’ and nothing else.


Now I answer your question: - I do not believe in ‘theory of FIVE DAILY PRAYERS’, because Qur’an does not support this theory. The Qur’an says only about ‘THREE DAILY PRAYRS’ not five.


Several times I told in this forum that Qur’an details about our daily Salat. At first you should read my that posts patiently and after that if you have any question then you should pose this, but you did not do that. However, I am giving you the details of Salat from the Qur’an once again. Please go through the links and READ ALL THE TOPICS under it:


http://www.quran-islam.org/165.html

Sksamsher Ali
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, July 17, 2007  -  9:45 AM Reply with quote
Dear All,

Q:- The question is that what is the 'Millat e Ibraheem' which Allah is directing prophet Muhammad pbuh to follow.

Ans:- Please go through the link: http://www.quran-islam.org/176.html and read it carefully. You will get your answer.


Samsher
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Tuesday, July 17, 2007  -  5:16 PM Reply with quote
sk, unfortunately so far all the links and arguements you have given on this forum have not been convincing in favour of the point you are trying to make i.e. Qur'an is the only source of guidance of humanity and the input from the prophets is not required whatsoever because they are against the logic that Qur'an itself has been revealed to the prophet (sws0 as the previous revelations have been revealed to the previous prophers(sws) all of whom have been guiding us through the revelations, leaving their practices behind to be followed forever-as ratified by the last messenger, Muhammad pbuh/sws.


contd:

Section IV: Prophets and Messengers

The envoys of God who have brought this religion are called “Prophets”. A study of the Qur’an shows that besides being assigned the position of “Prophethood” (nabuwwah), some of them were also assigned the position of “Messengerhood” (risalah).
“Prophethood” means that a person after receiving divine revelation teaches the truth to his addressees, and gives glad tidings of a good fate in the Hereafter to those who accept the truth and warns those among them who reject it that a bad fate awaits them. In the terminology of the Qur’an, giving such glad tidings is called basharah and giving such warnings is called indhar:

كَانَ النَّاسُ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً فَبَعَثَ اللّهُ النَّبِيِّينَ مُبَشِّرِينَ وَمُنذِرِينَ (213:2)
Mankind was once one community. [Then differences arose between them]. So God sent forth prophets as bearers of glad tidings and as warners. (2:213)


adopted from studying islam courses'Religion of Islam'

contd:
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Tuesday, July 17, 2007  -  5:19 PM Reply with quote
contd:

“Messengerhood”

means that a prophet is assigned to his people such that he decides their fate through divine sanction so that if they reject him, he practically enforces the sovereignty of the truth upon them by implementing on them God’s Judgement in this very world:

وَقَالَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ لِرُسُلِهِمْ لَنُخْرِجَنَّـكُم مِّنْ أَرْضِنَآ أَوْ لَتَعُودُنَّ فِي مِلَّتِنَا فَأَوْحَى إِلَيْهِمْ رَبُّهُمْ لَنُهْلِكَنَّ الظَّالِمِينَ وَلَنُسْكِنَنَّـكُمُ الأَرْضَ مِن بَعْدِهِمْ (14: 13-14)
And these disbelievers said to their Messengers: “We will drive you out of our land, or you return to our religion.” At this, their Lord revealed to them [– the Messengers –]: “Indeed, We shall cause the wrong-doers to perish! And indeed, We shall cause you to abide in this land after them.” (14:13-14)

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يُحَادُّونَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ أُوْلَئِكَ فِي الأَذَلِّينَ كَتَبَ اللَّهُ لَأَغْلِبَنَّ أَنَا وَرُسُلِي إِنَّ اللَّهَ قَوِيٌّ عَزِيزٌ (58: 20-21)
Indeed those who are opposing Allah and His Messenger shall be humiliated. The Almighty has ordained: “I and My Messengers shall always prevail. Indeed Allah is Mighty and Powerful.” (58:20-21)


It is in accordance with this established practice about risalah that it was thus ordained about Muhammad (sws):

هُوَ الَّذِي أَرْسَلَ رَسُولَهُ بِالْهُدَى وَدِينِ الْحَقِّ لِيُظْهِرَهُ عَلَى الدِّينِ كُلِّهِ وَلَوْ كَرِهَ الْمُشْرِكُونَ (9:61)
It is He Who has sent his rasul with guidance and the religion of truth that he may make it sovereign over all religions [of Arabia], even though these Idolaters [of Arabia] may detest this. (61:9)


contd:

adapted from studying islam courses. Religion of Islam.

Edited by: hkhan on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 5:28 PM
Mujahid

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Tuesday, July 17, 2007  -  5:55 PM Reply with quote
Brother Shamsher,
Many thanks for your reply.I have almost understood your point of view and have also seen the link you have sent.Before i give my views on your approach i want you to answer two questions so that i can be assured that i have understood your line of thinking correctly;

Q-1:Are you saying that true muslims must not seek any other source outside Quran for guidance?

Q-2Are you saying that sources like Sunnah,hadith,Fiqh,history etc etc cannot help in understanding the Quran as Quran is complete in every aspect?

Brother Shamsher, in case your answer is ‘yes’ for both questions then no further details are needed as you have explained your approach on this thread many times.However,if your answer is in the negative then please explain why my understanding of your approach is not correct?
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, July 18, 2007  -  12:09 PM Reply with quote
Salam Mr. hk,


Reply:- I can’t help you brother in this case, because you could not even yet been able to understand the meaning of the following simple verses, which inform us that Qur’an is Full of Guidance, Fully Detailed, Complete, Perfect and the ONLY Source of Law;

[2:97] Say, "Anyone who opposes Gabriel should know that he has brought down this (Quran) into your heart, in accordance with GOD's will, confirming previous scriptures, and providing guidance and good news for the believers."

[2:185] Ramadan is the month during which the Quran was revealed, providing guidance for the people, clear teachings, and the statute book.

[3:73] "The true guidance is GOD's guidance."

[7:52] We have given them a scripture that is fully detailed, with knowledge, guidance, and mercy for the people who believe.

[16:64] We have revealed this scripture to you, to point out for them what they dispute, and to provide guidance and mercy for people who believe.

[6:114] Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.

[6:115] The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

[6:116] If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of GOD. They follow only conjecture; they only guess.


Unfortunately, you could not been able to provide any single proof/reference FROM THE QUR’AN, so far, that the other fabricated sources, which you people invented i.e. hadith, sunnah, continuity, ijmaa are also the other sources of Islamic religious Law!!!!

Samsher.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, July 18, 2007  -  12:25 PM Reply with quote
Salam brother,


Q-1: Are you saying that true muslims must not seek any other source outside Quran for guidance?


Reply:- Yes, I say this because Qur’an says this in the following verse:


[6:114] Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?


Q-2 Are you saying that sources like Sunnah,hadith,Fiqh,history etc etc cannot help in understanding the Quran as Quran is complete in every aspect?


Reply:- At first I say you that sunnah, hadith, history are not any sources of Islamic Law. Almighty God says in the Qur’an that we should take IT(Qur'an) as Only Source of Law and HE also says in that Qur’an that IT is FULLY DETAILED, COMPLETE, PERFECT, Full of Guidance…etc..etc. So I believe in these words of Almighty God. Very simple.Is not it???


Samsher
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, July 19, 2007  -  11:56 AM Reply with quote
In reply to Hislam adopted by studying islam??? course


Salam hk,

Quote:- A study of the Qur’an shows that besides being assigned the position of “Prophethood” (nabuwwah), some of them were also assigned the position of “Messengerhood” (risalah).


Reply:- Where brother, Qur’an showed you this? Could you be able to provide us this point??? If not, then please refrain from diverting others from the path of God.

Instead Qur’an gives the IDEA that “All prophets were messenger, but All messengers were not prophet”.

"follow the messenger, the prophet (gentile prophet) (Muhammed), whom they find written in their Torah and Gospel . . . "7:157

"..........therefore you shall believe in God and His messenger, the prophet (gentile prophet), who believes in God and His words. Follow him, that you may be guided." 7:158

In 7:157 and 7:158 God described the Prophet Muhammed as, "the messenger the prophet" and not as "the prophet the messenger," not a coincidence. The reason is that not every messenger is a prophet. If every messenger was prophet, then God had not require to say “the messenger, the prophet”. Therefore the word PROPHET is used after the messenger to further define and clarify the description of that messenger.


Now pl. compare the above with the following verses:-


"Am I more than a human messenger (Basharan Rasoula)" 17:93

Notice: " a human messenger" and NOT "a messenger human (Rasoulan Bashara)."

The reason is that not every Bashar (human) is a Rasoul (messenger) while every Rasoul (messenger) from among us is a Bashar (human).

17:94 has the same expression again, human messenger (Basharan Rasoula), not (Rasoulan Bashara)

Again Compare:-

" . . . we would have sent to them from the sky an angel messenger (Malakan Rasoula)" 17:95

Notice, "an angle messenger" and NOT "a messenger angel (Rasoulan Malaka). The reason is that not every angel is a messenger but every messenger FROM God's soldiers is an angel.


Another example for the idea that All Messengers were not Prophets:

"God took a covenant from the PROPHETS, saying, "I will give you the SCRIPTURE AND WISDOM. Afterwards, a MESSENGER will come to CONFIRM all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you." 3:81

The above verse clearly gives the idea that ALL MESSENGERS (at least in one case according to the above verse) were not PROPHETS. If All Messengers were prophets, then it would be meaningless to say that “God took a covenant from the PROPHETS & Afterwards, a MESSENGER will come..”


Quote:- “Messengerhood” means that a prophet is assigned to his people such that he decides their fate through divine sanction so that if they reject him, he practically enforces the sovereignty of the truth upon them by implementing on them God’s Judgement in this very world:

Reply:- Smile.. Do you not read and understand the following verses:

[72:21] Say, "I possess no power to harm you, nor to guide you."

[88:21] You shall remind, for your mission IS TO DELIVER THIS REMINDER.

[88:22] You have no power over them.

[88:23] As for those who turn away and disbelieve.

[88:24] GOD will commit them to the great retribution.

[88:25] To us is their ultimate destiny.

[88:26] Then we will call them to account.

[5:99] The sole duty of the messenger is TO DELIVER THE MESSAGE, and GOD knows everything you declare and everything you conceal.

[6:48] We do not send the messengers EXCEPT AS DELIVERERS OF GOOD NEWS, AS WELL AS WARNERS. Those who believe and reform have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

[13:40] Whether we show you what we promise them, or terminate your life before that, YOUR SOLE MISSION IS TO DELIVER (the message). It is us who will call them to account.

Samsher
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, July 19, 2007  -  7:50 PM Reply with quote
(sk p.s the Quranic ref given in previous pages re: the prophets' call to the people to 'follow them' obviously whilst they followed their innate guidance, previous prophets' practices and the revelations that descended to some of them-finally shaping out their practices called sunnah, which they continued into generations)

we must not forget in this row about the source of deen that before all, the human being has been sent and stamped with innate guidance which he brings along at birth-in most matters his inner self guides him to the Right- where there was even a little bit of doubt that he may err, the Creator sent the guidance in the form of revelations which were revealed to some of these selected humans who were trustworthy and reliable to practice the guidance as it is within their innate guidance and would follow the lines given in revelations as and where required-not only this but would make arrangements to continue their practices based on these two sources into the generations-hence the generations being the witness to and practioners of these-

this innate guidance in the light of the final revelations and the practices of the prophets (sws) as ratified by the final prophet sws; make the source of religion.

niether God nor His messengers were such lax about this serious matter that they would leave it dependent on individually quoted narrations transmitted through individuals, called ahadith in islamic literature.
surely sahih hadith(in the light of the science of hadith by riwaya and darayah)) is the knowledge of the prophet sws, but it does not add anything new to the basic sources of religion mentioned above . they do support them though;


hence even if the books of hadith were not there, Islam would prevail in it's full fledge-based on innate guidance, Qur'an and the practices/Sunnah of the prophets sws.
Mujahid

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, July 20, 2007  -  12:33 AM Reply with quote
Brother Shamsher,
In the following lines I will explain why I disagree with your line of thinking.I will base my arguments on QURAN and the commonsense God has blessed the humans with.

In the Quran God says; Thus We have revealed to you(O’prophet) the Qur’an IN YOUR OWN TONGUE that you may thereby proclaim good tidings to the upright and give warning to a contentious nation. (19:97)


Quran says; We have revealed this [Qur’an] to you IN YOUR OWN TONGUE so that they may take heed. (44:58)

Quran says; And thus we sent down this Quran in ARABIC and have explained therein the warnings……………….(20:113)

Quran says; And we have revealed this Quran to you in Arabic so that you may warn the people of ‘Umm ul Qura(Mecca)………….(42:7)

As is very clear from these Quranic verses that anyone who who wants to translate and interpret the Quran must have knowledge of the Arabic which was spoken by the prophet sws during his time.I think no one even with an average IQ would disagree with this notion.

This Quran is not in the Arabic spoken in Saudia Arab,Syria or Jordan of today. It is absolutely mandatory for a scholar of Quran to be master of the Arabic spoken in the tribe of Quraish.How can anyone learn that Arabic without knowing the Arab literature of that era?

Brother, I asked you in my last post;

Q1:Are you saying that true muslims must not seek any other source outside Quran for guidance?

Your answer;

Yes, I say this because Qur’an says this in the following verse:


[6:114] Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?

I am absolutely AMAZED how a scholar who does not believe in consulting any source outside Quran can ever go near Quran to understand its meanings. Even if he is relying on someone else’s translation (In that case he is not a scholar and is just like me) he is relying on somebody who has sought advice from sources outside Quran which in your approach is FORBIDDEN.

Having said that there are still two possibilities to translate Quran without the knowledge of its language. One, that the person who has introduced this approach claims to be prophet of God. Second, God has revealed to him the dictionary of Quran explaining to him all the principles of Arabic language spoken by prophet sws and his companions, meanings of words used in Quran, idioms etc etc.

In case the pioneer of this approach claims to be a prophet then straight away he is outside the circle of Islam.He is not even worth listening to.If he has got the Arabic dictionary revealed to him by Almighty then he needs to show us all and prove and defend his claim in the public.

Unfortunately, I can see two main groups among the muslims.One who consider hadith to be the primary source of islam and the other who reject both hadith and sunnah.These are both extremes.

If one ponders over Quran one can see that prophet Muhammad sws was not the first but the last prophet of islam.Quran says;

O Prophet (sws)! We have sent revelations to you as We sent revelations to Noah and to the prophets who came after him, and as We sent revelations to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his progeny and to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, Solomon, and We gave the Psalms to David. (4:163)

Quran says;

He has prescribed for you the same religion which He prescribed for Noah, and which We have now revealed to you which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, with the assertion: “Adhere to this religion [in your lives] and do not create any divisions in it.” (42:13)

Quran says;

Then We revealed to you to follow the ways of Abraham, who was true in faith and was not among the polytheists. (16:123)

The above verses not only explain that prophet sws was given the same religion which was given to other prophets of God but also clarify without any doubt that prophet sws received revelation to follow the way of prophet Ibrahim sws. All those ways which constitute the established sunnah and to which the entire muslim ummah adheres to irrespective of their sectarian divisions.Those established sunnahs are protected the way Quran has been protected by this ummah.But brother Shamsher,what i have read from your posts i have gathered that you dont even believe in the entire Quran rest of the ummah believes in.Am i right?

It was shocking to read the way your scholars have tried to concoct the way to say salah.The most important of rituals like salah mentioned in the Quran countless times was left to your scholars 1400 years later to invent a method for.I don’t want to even waste my time describing the absurditry of the method of newly invented salah. Are you not aware that not for a single day this ummah in the last 1400 yrs,despite all its weaknesses, ignored the institution of salah. Come this time and your scholars are trying to teach this ummah a new method of salah about which they themselves are not sure, as is evident by reading your description of salah. How sad is this?

Brother,read this from Quran;
And if you fear(an enemy),perform salah either on foot or riding and when you are safe perform salah the way you have been taught which you did not know before(2:239).CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT PROPHET SWS WAS TAUGHT SALAH BY ALLAH.WHERE IS THIS METHOD DESCRIBED IN QURAN? Please,don’t refer to the out of context verses that you normally refer to.

Brother,Ignoring sunnah of prophet Muhammad sws would mean ignoring following practices which the entire muslim ummah shia/sunni together have agreed to for the last 1400 yrs.
Greeting one another with assalamu ‘alaykum (peace be to you) and responding with wa ‘alaykum al-salam (and peace be to you)
Saying alhamdu lilah (praise be to Allah) after sneezing and responding to it by saying yarhamu kallah (may Allah have mercy on you)
Saying adhan in the right ear of a new born baby and saying ‘iqamah in its left ear
Keeping moustaches trimmed
Shaving pubic hair
Shaving the hairs under the armpits
Cutting nails
Circumcising the male offspring
Cleaning the body after excretion
Bathing after the menstrual and the puerperal period(avoiding salah during this time of uncleanliness)
Bathing the dead before burial
Enshrouding a dead body and preparing it for burial
Burying the dead etc etc etc

All the above has always been integral part of islam.All the above has been transmitted from generation to generation uninterrupted and unanimously agreed by each generation including the present generation.

Brother,please open your eyes before they are closed forever.

God knows the best.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Friday, July 20, 2007  -  12:29 PM Reply with quote
Salam hk,

Q:- (sk p.s the Quranic ref given in previous pages re: the prophets' call to the people to 'follow them' obviously whilst they followed their innate guidance, previous prophets' practices and the revelations that descended to some of them-finally shaping out their practices called sunnah, which they continued into generations)


Reply:- It is our obligation to follow only Qur’nic rules, rites (according to IT’s claim) and nothing else. This is told in http://www.quran-islam.org/176.html .

The only source of Deen for us is Only Qur’an. We should rule ONLY ACCORDING TO IT.(5:48, 6:114-115, 22:67). We are accountable only for Qur’an (43:44, 2:134, 2:141).


Q:- surely sahih hadith(in the light of the science of hadith by riwaya and darayah)) is the knowledge of the prophet sws,

R:- Smile. Another lie against Islam. Brother I tell you there is no science in hadith, which is also fabricated by later generations to justify their claim. We should remember that our ONLY RELIGIOUS SOURCE IS QUR’AN ACCORDING TO THE OPINION OF MUHAMMAD,THE PROPHET. Qur’an is Fully Detailed, Complete, Perfect.


Q:- but it does not add anything new to the basic sources of religion mentioned above . they do support them though;

Reply:- Smile. Then how do you offer your regular salat? I asked this question several times, but you could not show any courage till date to reply this. You know very well that if you would reply this, you would be caught red-handed. Smile.


Q:- hence even if the books of hadith were not there, Islam would prevail in it's full fledge-based on innate guidance, Qur'an and the practices/Sunnah of the prophets sws.

Reply:- Muhamad’s practices was ONLY QUR’AN not anything besides IT.


Samsher.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Friday, July 20, 2007  -  12:32 PM Reply with quote
Salam Mujahid,

Q:- In the following lines I will explain why I disagree with your line of thinking.

Reply:- I don’t mind brother, Those who are idolaters will never obey the Qur’an or will never be satisfied with the Only Qur’an. So what??? The truth will not change. The Only Truth regarding Islam(for us) is Qur’an.

Q:- As is very clear from these Quranic verses that anyone who wants to translate and interpret the Quran must have knowledge of the Arabic which was spoken by the prophet sws during his time. I think no one even with an average IQ would disagree with this notion.

Reply:- What a childish opinion??? If any one wants to translate English then he should have the knowledge of English. It is not any new thing!


Q:- This Quran is not in the Arabic spoken in Saudia Arab, Syria or Jordan of today. It is absolutely mandatory for a scholar of Quran to be master of the Arabic spoken in the tribe of Quraish. How can anyone learn that Arabic without knowing the Arab literature of that era?


Reply:- You people never appreciate the fact that to God belongs all the languages of the world, He created them, just like He created us, See 49:13 and 11:118-119. God, the Almighty, the Knower, the Cognizant knows that the majority of the Muslims in the world will not be reading , speaking or understanding Arabic. About 80% of the Muslims in this world cannot read, understand or speak Arabic. Quran is a book of a message and not a book of entertainment. God knows that HIS MESSAGE can be and will be translated to all the languages of the world and that the true believer will get His message in any place that was destined to be. God would not send a message that cannot be given to everyone clear and unambiguous. God would not send a message in a language that the people cannot read, speak or understand then punish them for not knowing what His message is.
God clearly told us in the Quran that He does not want any hardship in His religion. God did not put any hardship on these millions (or bilions) of non-Arabs to master the Arabic language before getting His message. See 22:78 Getting the message and enjoying the literature excellence of the Quran are two different matters.
The contemporary Arabs of Muhammed listened to the Quran and appreciated its literature excellence but many of them did not believe then, e.g. Abu Jahl and Abu Lahab, Muhammed's own uncles. Many of the contemporary Arabs of today read the Quran in Arabic but do not appreciate the message of the Quran, they belong to the same group as Abu Jahl and Abu Lahab.
Many deceived Arabic speaking people put too much emphasis on their ability to appreciate the literature excellence of the Quran while missing the point of the need to appreciate the message itself, by following it.
Understanding that God guarantees that the MESSAGE of the Quran will be given to the whole world in any language in any place, means to understand that having the Quran as an Arabic or non-Arabic book would not make the difference and that is exactly what God is teaching us in 41:44

"If we made it a non-Arabic Quran they would have said, "Why did it come down in that language?" Whether it is Arabic or non-Arabic, say, "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, they will be deaf and blind to it, as if they are being addressed from faraway." 41:44

to be contd...
Mujahid

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, July 21, 2007  -  12:22 AM Reply with quote
Brother Shamsher,
Now i know that why this thread has been going on since Dec 2004. It is sad that you don’t answer simple questions and choose to go round and round and round aimlessly.Anyway I would like to highlight TWO CONTRADICTIONS in your above post. A philosophy based on weak grounds will always get exposed like it has in your post.

You write;

Abu Jahl and Abu Lahab, Muhammed's own uncles. Many of the contemporary Arabs of today read the Quran in Arabic but do not appreciate the message of the Quran, they belong to the same group as Abu Jahl and Abu Lahab.

FIRST CONTRADICTION;

May I ask you where does Quran mention that Abu jahl did not appreciate the message of Quran? You are not to seek any help from any source outside the Quran.ABU JAHL’ s name is not mentioned in Quran at all.HOW CAN YOU MENTION IT? It is eithet in Ahadith or in history.

SECOND CONTRADICTION;

Where does Quran say that Abu Jahl and Abu Lahab were Muhammad’s sws uncles? It is again either in Ahadith or history.

I am not going to discuss this issue any further unless you admit to these two very obvious contradictions in your last message.AND FOR GOD’S SAKE DON’T SEND ME ANY OTHER OUT OF CONTEXT QURANIC REFERENCE.WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF IT,ATLEAST I HAVE.

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