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cares

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, February 07, 2007  -  1:27 PM Reply with quote
Salam all,

Brother Zulfi,

Quote: A very immature question!!! With best intentions, again go through whole of this forum from first to the last page, you will do find the solid confirmation,

Reply: hmm, u are unable to provide the proof what I ask, I again ask how do u understand that this verse fit for any one…. I went through this forum my mature brother, try to understand.

Quote: What a whimsical and baseless statement is!!! Bring the single verse of Noble Qura’n, which support Obeying Mohammad, which is NOT same as Obeying the messenger. The difference between Obeying Mohammad and Obeying the messenger is very simple but the SHIELD of God prevents you to understand.

Reply: You people will not even become satisfied if it would have been written “ Obey Muhammad”, because u r unable to understand the sense of OBEYING A MESSENGER, Brother before saying this, do u think a little bit, that how a person (Muhammad) can be obeyed for a long time of period for all human being, I think then Allah surely should have given him a LONG LIFE. But this is not the matter, MESSAGE IN ANY SHAPE either scriptures, practices, sayings …etc can be obeyed for a long time. Do u understand?

Quote: Because he could not leave the religion of his forefathers like the so called muslims of today can not leave the fabricated hadith based ideas of their forefathers


Reply: what about ur next generations, what u r following now, tomorrow all this will be religion of forefathers of ur children, and Hadiths of R.K. if u start to follow all this.

Quote: usmani790, Cares, hkhan, raushan and the others……

As said by sksamshirali, your conclusions and beliefs are absolutely whimsical and baseless, because of having NO reference in the the Qur’an.

Reply: brother, I see most of the time that every people in this forum calls eachothers “ THAT THEY ARE WHIMSICAL” for God sake brother, solve this problem if u have any knowledge..but I see u have also no answer to this yet, bcz u r also one of them.


Cares…
cares

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, February 07, 2007  -  1:28 PM Reply with quote
Sallam all,

Quote: Chapter 4/80: Whoever obeyed the messenger, so indeed he has obeyed Allah…

Traditional Muslims usually try to justify the use of Hadith by saying that Allah is obeyed by obeying Al-Quran, while the messenger is obeyed by obeying the Hadiths. But Hadiths just doesn’t fit in this verse(4:80) at all.


Reply: Who says u this brother?? Y r u spreading false statements from ur side to support u. Even this definition of Hadith and Messenger’s obedience is false. Then y r u bringing such false materials?. For God sake brother, r u passing ur time in this forum?.

Quote: If we suppose that ‘obeying the messenger’ indeed means ‘obeying the Hadiths’, then it would mean that whoever has obeyed Hadiths, by doing so he has obeyed Allah as well i.e. BOTH the messenger and Allah have been obeyed through the Hadith. And if that is true then what is the use of Al-Quran? This interpretation of theirs would mean that Al-Quran is useless.
Also, Al-Quran uses a singular pronoun when referring to Allah and the messenger:

Chapter 8/20: O those who believe! Obey Allah AND His messenger and do not turn back from HIM while you hear.

It means that obedience to both Allah and His messenger is the same thing, and both are obeyed through a single source. That source cannot be the Hadith.

to be continued.........

Reply: Own statements own understanding!! As I told u that u have brought false definition, As ur basic tools are weak therefore plzzzzzzzz DO NOT CONTINUE IT.. thx


Cares…
JunaidHasan

GERMANY
Posted - Wednesday, February 07, 2007  -  3:13 PM Reply with quote
The post has been removed due to execcive length. Please summarize and resend.However if it remains more than A4 page size, please send to Articles section for review.
If you wish to have a copy your post back, it can be sent via email.
Thank you
Moderator

Edited by: imran776 on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 10:35 PM
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, February 07, 2007  -  10:11 PM Reply with quote
Salaam all

A simple article I came across.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/9/14/218139/fact.fiction.pdf

any constructive and logical comments?

regards
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, February 08, 2007  -  11:06 AM Reply with quote
Salam mr. Khan,


MY Quote:Qur’an is the only religious source of Islam. If anything, yes anything we regard as religious source besides Qur’an, then it will be proved that we are doing shirk with Almighty Allah because we are not satisfied with the Qur’an only, Almighty Allah’s words, so we seek another source to complete the islam. Islam was completed with the revelation of Qur’an. So we should not require anything to further complete our religion, which has already been completed.


your reply :- The fact needs serious consideration that he source of religion untill the Day of Judgement will now remain the Qura'n and the teachings of its bringer, Muhammad sws, which have been guarded just as Qura'n itself as Sunnah which was preceded by Qura'n as Sunna t e Ibrahimi and forwarded by Muhammad sws after purification;


MY REPLY :- Brother khan, where did you find that “Sunnah was preceded by Qura'n as Sunna t e Ibrahimi and forwarded by Muhammad sws after purification”. You people always used to give whimsical opinion regarding Islam, which has no support/reference in the whole Qur’an. Brother true Islam can only find in the Qur’an. Do you not read and understand what the verse 22:67 says? Let us see what this verses of Qur’an says about the subject;

[22:67] For each congregation, we have decreed a set of rites that they must uphold. Therefore, they should not dispute with you. You shall continue to invite everyone to your Lord. Most assuredly, you are on the right path.

This ayat in fact confirms that we the receivers of the Qur’an are to follow the rites and rules given to us in the Qur’an and not what was given to those before us….God tells us clearly here that every people(congregation) were given their won set of rites……as a result to say that we follow the identical rites that were given to Ibraheem and that were passed down to us in contradiction to this ayat….

Now we come to a very significant pharase in the above ayat………. Lets look at the pharase “Therefore, they should not dispute with you.”….what does God mean by this pharase?

Well, let us first try to imagine why those of previous congregation/scripture would dispute with Muhammad? After all the scripture that is given to Muhammad(Quran) advocates the same one God that those people believe in, so why should they dispute with him?

It is obvious that they will dispute with him because according to the Qur’an which Muhammad follows, he is following different rites and rules than what they are following……….for that they are not happy and they dispute with him……….this once again indicates that what Muhammad was given was different from what ws practiced at his time, otherwise they would not dispute with him……what this also proves is that to say that God commanded Muhammad to follow the identical practices of Abraham which it is claimed that were known and practiced at the time, this is a totally false statement.if Muhammad was to follow what was known and practiced at the time(and which some say was preserved from the time of Abraham) they why would the people of the previous scripture would dispute with him? Would they dispute with him if he was following what was known and practiced at the time??? the only reason that they will dispute with him is that what he was given(Qur’an) brought new and different rites and rules to what they were given ….this is confirmed with the words;

“For each congregation, we have decreed a set of rites that they must uphold”.


Quote:- and Hadith literature supports, mind us just Supports, does not add anything, to the teachings from these two basic sources.

MY REPLY:- How could you or in what manner you offer your regular salat? How could you observe Ablution(wudu), How many times in a day do you offer your obligatory salat…etc..etc..

After your reply I will show you InshAllah whether your cherished hadith added anything to the real islam or not.



Samsher,India.
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, February 08, 2007  -  5:39 PM Reply with quote
ws sk shamsher
i appreciate yout quest for the Truth :)
however we should not hv time to keep beating around the bush. ps the Renaissance Links i sent before which gives every detail about the imp of Qur'an, sunnah and Hadith in terms of Deen; Deen being defined as a collection of faith and deeds which is required for the purification of soul; as the one and only reason islam came was to purify the human soul.
also ps the article by junaid on the
link
http://www.studying-islam.org/articletext.aspx?id=1089

(also the members are warned not to use words like'your idiotic questions' for your colleague participants plz otherwise due action will be taken as per the code of conduct of the forums.)
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, February 08, 2007  -  7:10 PM Reply with quote
thnx perv1 it is an interesting article. and thank you for sending the Link only; just saves us from some extra work.

as for the following parag of the article; this is the reason that the scholars related to this site hv taken on board this daunting task of picking the right from the wrong in the literature of hadith by the immense work they are doing in terms of research n production. weought to help them in whichever way possible if we wish to save this drowning ummah in the ignorance created by the stagnation of knowledge and learning in the light of the basic sources the creator has provided.


A parag from the Article you mentioned:
Myth: Muslims usually have good knowledge about their religion and are well-versed
with what is in their Books
Fact: Most modern Muslims have no idea of the crap that can be found in their Hadiths. They
simply imbibe what they have been told by their parents or Imams/scholars, without studying
the sources of their Islamic practices. Indeed many Muslims would get astounded if they are
confronted with the nonsensical stories about their own prophet in Hadiths.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, February 08, 2007  -  8:46 PM Reply with quote
Salaam Henna

Hope all is well with you.

quote:

as for the following parag of the article; this is the reason that the scholars related to this site hv taken on board this daunting task of picking the right from the wrong in the literature of hadith by the immense work they are doing in terms of research n production. weought to help them in whichever way possible if we wish to save this drowning ummah in the ignorance created by the stagnation of knowledge and learning in the light of the basic sources the creator has provided.


I think you know my views on hadith. If the so called scholars, whether on this site or anywhere else for that matter, after having studied hadith still consider some good in them then that is their problem. For me the hadith are the words of lucifer and belong in a place which is emptied weekly by the local authority binmen....because I have limit to how often I read anti islamic utterances.

Regards
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Friday, February 09, 2007  -  10:20 AM Reply with quote
Salam cares,

Quote:- We have people of the same thinking earlier also but they never start propagating their views by declaring others as idolators or kafirs.

MY REPLY:- what is the definition of idolator or kafirs according to your literature?

Quote:- If we go through their(new rejecters of hadith) literature it appears as if their objective is nothing but to oppose hadith only.

MY REPLY:- What is hadith? It is nothing but conjecture which are written long after the death of Muhammad and falsely attributed on him. More importantly Qur’an does not permit us to take these conjecture/fabricated hadith as our religious source. Qur’an says us about only one hadith i.e. Qur’an itself.

[45:6] These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?

[45:7] Woe to every fabricator, guilty.
So brother it is Qur’an, it is Almighty God who oppose your cherished fabricated hadith. We only follow the Qur’an, but you people do not do and already you have agreed that.

[4:60] Have you noted those who claim that they believe in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed before you, then uphold the unjust laws of their idols? They were commanded to reject such laws. Indeed, it is the devil's wish to lead them far astray.

[6:106] Follow what is revealed to you from your Lord, there is no god except He, and disregard the idol worshipers.


Sk Samsher Ali, India
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Friday, February 09, 2007  -  10:23 AM Reply with quote
Salam Raushan


Quote:- Thus it is seen that Prophet Jesus(as) did bring a change in the law and thus is referred to as in the Quran as a Messenger. Prophet Ibrahim(as) did not bring a law but did receive a book and thus is referred to
as only a Prophet.

REPLY:- Is it your own opinion brother? Could you also please tell me who among the prophets besides Abraham (as per your claim) were not messengers, according to you??

Now Please see;

[9:70] Have they not learned anything from the previous generations; the people of Noah, `Aad, Thamood, the people of Abraham, the dwellers of Midyan, and the evildoers (of Sodom and Gomorrah)? THEIR MESSENGERS went to them with clear proofs. GOD never wronged them; they are the ones who wronged their own souls.

Sksamsherali
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Friday, February 09, 2007  -  10:29 AM Reply with quote
Salam,

Quote:- Who says u this brother?? Y r u spreading false statements from ur side to support u. Even this definition of Hadith and Messenger’s obedience is false. Then y r u bringing such false materials?. For God sake brother, r u passing ur time in this forum?.

MY REPLY:- Ha..ha.. Then do you agree that ‘obey Allah means obey the Qur’an and also obey messenger means obey the Qur’an and nothing else?

Quote:- Brother before saying this, do u think a little bit, that how a person (Muhammad) can be obeyed for a long time of period for all human being, I think then Allah surely should have given him a LONG LIFE. But this is not the matter, MESSAGE IN ANY SHAPE either scriptures, practices, sayings …etc can be obeyed for a long time. Do u understand?

MY REPLY :- That means are you saying that Almighty Allah says “Obey the messenger,not obey Muhammad" because of his Message? If yes, then brother pl. tell me what was the Message, which Muhammad brought to this world???


Samsher Ali, India.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Friday, February 09, 2007  -  10:37 AM Reply with quote
Salam,

Quote: You people will not even become satisfied if it would have been written “ Obey Muhammad”, because u r unable to understand the sense of OBEYING A MESSENGER,

MY REPLY :- Who are unable to understand it is very clear. You could not be able yet why Almighty Allah says in the Qur’an “OBEY THE MESSENGER”. Every time HE says “OBEY ALLAH AND OBEY THE MESSENGER” not a single time HE says “obey Allah and obey Muhammad”. Why? Because both are not same.

The word Messenger is derived from the word Message. A Messenger delivers a Message. To Obey the Messenger would thus mean to obey the message he is delivering.


And obey Allah and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that only a clear deliverance of the message is (incumbent) on Our messenger
And Allah has made for you of what He has created shelters, and He has given you in the mountains places of retreat, and He has given you garments to preserve you from the heat and coats of mail to preserve you in your fighting; even thus does He complete His favor upon you, that haply you may submit. But if they turn back, then on you devolves only the clear deliverance (of the message)
And if you (o people) reject (the truth), nations before you did indeed reject (the truth); and nothing is incumbent on the messenger but a plain delivering (of the message)
And obey Allah and obey the messenger, but if you turn back, then upon Our messenger devolves only the clear delivery (of the message)
Say: Obey Allah and obey the messenger; but if you turn back, then on him rests that which is imposed on him and on you rests that which is imposed on you; and if you obey him, you are on the right way; and nothing rests on the messenger but clear delivering (of the message)

Now, if we look at these Ayaat, we notice that Allah has clearly pointed out the duty of the Messenger, i.e. that he must DELIVER the Clarity
Now I ask you a question:- “Had Muhammad not been a Messenger of Allah would people obey him”?

The answer is NO. Thus Obedience to the Prophet is BECAUSE he is the Messenger of Allah. Thus the two are NOT mutually exclusive obedience - one is highly dependent on the other. It is the same as saying eat an apple and eat its nutrition.


to be continued.......
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Friday, February 09, 2007  -  10:39 AM Reply with quote
In continuation of my earlier reply....

Here is further Evidence from the Quraan that they are the same:

And an announcement from ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore, if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve (9:3)

Now, did the people hear Allah giving this announcement of immunity The answer is No!. It was only from the LIPS of His Messenger, Muhammad, that they heard this announcement of immunity. Yet it is supposed to come from both Allah and His Messenger. Or do people think that one announcement came from Allah and ANOTHER came from the Messenger Allah does not speak to all the people. What He does is that He chooses a human being as His instrument and communicates through that instrument.
The following Ayah again establishes that Obedience to Allah and His Messenger is ONE and the SAME thing:


O you who believe! Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger and do not turn back from HIM

Here the believers are identified to be those who were listening to the Messenger who delivers the Quraanic laws to them, as the singular pronoun anhu (from him) indicates. This confirms that Allah and His Messenger are not two separate sources of law to be obeyed, but that the source of Divine law to be obeyed is ONLY Allah and ONLY the people are able to hear these divine laws through the LIPS of His Messenger.

The Messenger himself is made to testify that the Law and the Judgment is only from Allah as revealed through the Messenger in His Book:


Shall I seek a Law-giver other than Allah When He it is Who has revealed to you the Book distinctly elucidated. (6:114)

Thus, the proponents of Hadith are only relying on conjecture when they say that obey the Messenger means to obey EXTRA commandments outside of the Quraan; they have no evidence from the Quraan to back up this claim - only conjecture:

Most of them follow nothing but conjecture: truly conjecture can be of no avail against truth. Verily Allah is well aware of all that they do. (10:36)

Sksamsherali, India.
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, February 10, 2007  -  6:25 PM Reply with quote
ws dear perv 1/always nice to hear from you.specially wen i'm aware iof your excessively busy schedule at hosp n home, ;n community i guess. am well alhamdulillah.

no worries whatsoever re: your personal belief about hadith. you cn see we hv allowed all sorts of opinions here ..salafi, ahl e hadith, hanafi, shafi, barelwi, shia, sunni you name it everyone has the right to believe in what they decide is right, however must try their best to get the relevant knowledge 'cause we believe in interactive learning along side reading(for which we hv offered these free online courses http://www.studying-islam.org/courselist.aspx

as for the studying islam itself, it proclaims the message that the sources of deen e islam are qur'an and sunnah; the latter being the practices of the prophets starting from adam pbuh upto the last prophet muhammad pbuh and upon all of them; as cleansed by ibrahim and the last prophet. ilm e hadith does not add or change anything from it and is not a source of shariah however does elaborate the teachings of Qura'n and sunnah--however it needs sorting out in the light of the science of hadith as any other subject does need with time. this daunting task has been taken by the scholars of this site and our prayers remain with their efforts. we must support them as much as possible because they are working hard to save this ummah and humanity from being doomed--whilst sacrificing their personal interests, time, careers and finances
Zulfee

USA
Posted - Sunday, February 11, 2007  -  8:45 AM Reply with quote
quote:

REPLY:- Why, did you not read or understand the meaning of the verse 3:81? Does this verse say you that messenger also brings new scripture???? At first please check your I.Q. hahahahahahahahahaha.

AGREED!!!!
Could you please explain what can be the factors of such an I.Q???
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Monday, February 12, 2007  -  8:02 AM Reply with quote
Dear Khan,

Quote:- as for the studying islam itself, it proclaims the message that the sources of deen e islam are qur'an and sunnah; the latter being the practices of the prophets starting from adam pbuh upto the last prophet muhammad pbuh and upon all of them; as cleansed by ibrahim and the last prophet.


MY REPLY :- I think you either did not understand my opinion based on only Qur’an, which I sent to you on February 08,2007(Thursday), or you have intentionally avoided it by knowing. Whatever may be, I am once again reproducing my previous opinion(supported with only Qur’an) for your consideration and for others;

[22:67] For each congregation, we have decreed a set of rites that they must uphold. Therefore, they should not dispute with you. You shall continue to invite everyone to your Lord. Most assuredly, you are on the right path.

This ayat in fact confirms that we the receivers of the Qur’an are to follow the rites and rules given to us in the Qur’an and not what was given to those before us….God tells us clearly here that EVERY PEOPLE(CONGREGATION) WERE GIVEN THEIR WON SET OF RITES……as a result to say that we follow the identical rites that were given to Ibraheem and that were passed down to us in contradiction to this ayat….

Now we come to a very significant pharase in the above ayat………. Lets look at the pharase “THEREFORE, THEY SHOULD NOT DISPUTE WITH YOU.”….WHAT DOES GOD MEAN BY THIS PHARASE?

Well, let us first try to imagine why those of previous congregation/scripture would dispute with Muhammad? After all the scripture that is given to Muhammad(Quran) advocates the same one God that those people believe in, so why should they dispute with him?

It is obvious that they will dispute with him because according to the Qur’an which Muhammad follows, he is following different rites and rules than what they are following……….for that they are not happy and they dispute with him……….this once again indicates that what Muhammad was given was different from what was practiced at his time, otherwise they would not dispute with him……WHAT THIS ALSO PROVES IS THAT TO SAY THAT GOD COMMANDED MUHAMMAD TO FOLLOW THE IDENTICAL PRACTICES OF ABRAHAM WHICH IT IS CLAIMED THAT WERE KNOWN AND PRACTICED AT THE TIME, THIS IS A TOTALLY FALSE STATEMENT. If Muhammad was to follow what was known and practiced at the time(and which some say was preserved from the time of Abraham…..) then why the people of the previous scriptures would dispute with him? WOULD THEY DISPUTE WITH HIM IF HE WAS FOLLOWING WHAT WAS KNOWN AND PRACTICED AT THE TIME??? The only reason that they will dispute with him is that what he was given(Qur’an) brought new and different rites and rules to what they were given ….this is confirmed with the words;

“For each congregation, we have decreed a set of rites that they must uphold”.

[5:48] Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed laws and different rites. Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To GOD is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed.

Samsher,India

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