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hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, April 25, 2007  -  11:14 PM Reply with quote
one of the dangers to islam is from the schools of thought which deny of the prophet's sws/pbuh teachings and their importance as the source of Islam. however just like Allah has made arrangements to guard the Qur'an for all the times to come, the teachings of the beloved sws have been secured in the followers practices.

iv. Holy Qur’an and the Sunnah

The entire Islam is to be found in the Holy Qur’an and the Sunnah. Islam
consists of beliefs and practices. The Holy Qur’an contains all the beliefs and the
Sunnah essentially gives the practical form of religious rites and also guidance on
a number of other practical issues. Sunnah thus complements the Holy Qur’an
towards fulfillment of Islam.
Since Qur’an (beliefs) and Sunnah (practices) have both reached down through
Tawatur, we can say that the entire Islam (beliefs and practices) has reached us
through Tawatur. That is why the Muslims believe that their sources of knowledge
on Islam are extremely authentic and their authenticity is proven beyond any
shadow of doubt.


contd:
(adapted from Studying Islam courses)
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, April 25, 2007  -  11:17 PM Reply with quote
Similarly, anyone who does not believe in the Sunnah, actually refuses to believe in the Holy Qur’a'n also. Therefore someone who does not believe in the Sunnah cannot claim to be a Muslim.


i. Consensus of all Sects on Sunnah

Due to the Tawa'tur and Ijma‘ (consensus) of the Companions (rta) of the Holy
Prophet (sws) on Sunan, there is no difference of opinion amongst Muslim sects on the acceptance of the Sunan. All the sects believe that the Holy Prophet (sws)instituted the Sunan and the Muslims have been practicing them in exactly the same manner since then.

contd:
(adapted from studying islam courses)
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, April 25, 2007  -  11:28 PM Reply with quote
not to worry moderators are here just giving you 'dheel'/ freedom but remember the string can be pulled anytime

1.participants plz mind your language while conversing amongst yourselves and abstain from using words like nonsense claim!!!

2.plz keep your posts to A4 size page. you may split the longer posts.
Abrar75

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, April 26, 2007  -  6:22 AM Reply with quote
Dear brother Sher Ali,
Assalam o Alaikum
I am new in this discussion and want to say my views with my little knowledge. I think the Muslims have three sources for establishing themselves on Islamic guidance. First, the Holy Quran which is the Book of God, the final and conclusive. It is the Word of God and is free from all doubt and speculation. Secondly, the practice of the Holy Prophet, which is called Sunnah. The third source of guidance is hadeeth.

As the Holy Prophet was commissioned for the propagation of the Quran, he was also commissioned for establishing the sunnah. Both these tasks were performed by the Holy Prophet as his duty. For instance, when the Prayer services were made obligatory, the Holy Prophet illustrated by his action how many "rakaats" were to be performed in each Prayer service. If you deny Sunnah or Ahadith you do not how many rakaats to pray. In the same way, he illustrated the performance of the pilgrimage. He thus established thousands of his companions on his practice. Same about giving Zakat.

Nevertheless, it would be a mistake to imagine that till the ahadeeth were compiled, the Muslims were unaware of the details of Prayer services or did not know the proper way of performing the pilgrimage. The practical illustrations of the sunnah had taught them all the limits and obligations laid down by Islam.

A person who is bestowed the understanding of the Quran by Divine grace, and who finds that a hadeeth is opposed to a verse of the Quran, should, out of respect, so far as it is possible, so interpret the hadeeth as to bring it into accord with the Holy Quran, but if this is not possible and cannot by any means be achieved, he should regard the hadeeth as spurious This is better for us. There is no doubt that most of the compilers of hadeeth were very pious and righteous. They tested the accuracy of ahadeeth as far as it was possible and tried to steer clear of such of them as in their opinion were manufactured, and they rejected every hadeeth any narrator of which was of doubtful veracity. We accept its authority subject to the condition that it should not be opposed to the Holy Quran.

For your question regarding punishment of adultery (Stoning). It is very simple that it is not mention in Quran so should not be done. All those orders will be not followed, which are not menined in Quran, but if some ahadiths are not denying Quran, we should follow this. No verse is cancelled in Quran. All Quran should be followed.

In last, I have few questions from you?
How may rakaats you pray in fajar prayer? How much Zakat you pay? Is there any detail of pilgrimage in Quran? All detail we know through Sunanh and Ahadith.

I am not saying that Quran is not a complete book. It is a complete book but we should folllow sunnah and ahadiths which are not against Quiran.
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, April 26, 2007  -  10:03 AM Reply with quote
welcometo the forums abrar75; assalamu alaykum

just to clarify an imp point here that although the tremendous treasure ofthe prophets sws teachings in the formof ahadeeth is an unmatching source of education, but hadeeth does not add or subtract anything to the religion/deen of islam;it just compliments it with better explanation and understanding. the deen is completely available in it's major sources i.e. Qur'an and the Sunnah of the prophet sws.

(for details p.s. our courses 'introduction to hadeeth' and 'understanding the sunnah')
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, April 26, 2007  -  10:13 AM Reply with quote
also a very good example has been given above, of the practical matters in deen as explained by the prophet sws. our recent issues of the monthly Renaissance journal give details of prayers as explained by him in practice-also clarifying many important points which have unnecessarily caused differences amongst various sects of muslims, due to lack of knowledge. (Renaissance journal compliments the teachings we endeavour to spread through this website and other sister sites of ours.)

i. Raf‘ al-Yadayn

Sometimes, the Prophet (sws) would do raf‘ al-yadayn while saying the takbir, sometimes before it and sometimes after it.[45] His hands would be open, and he would not completely join together the fingers of the hand nor open them completely.[46] He would sometimes raise his hands up to the level of his shoulders, and sometimes as high as the upper portion of the ears.[47]

It is evident from certain narratives that the Prophet (sws) at some instances did the raf‘ al-yadayn before and after the ruku‘.[48] Similarly, he would also do it after getting up from the third rak‘at[49] and sometimes before and after prostrating too.[50]


ii. Qiyam

In the qiyam position[51], he would stand straight with hands tied in front.[52] He would hold his hands in a manner that a part of the right hand would be placed on the back of the left hand, a part of it below the left hand and a part on the wrist.[53] He stopped people from tying hands in a manner that the left hand be placed on top of the right one.[54]

There are some Ahadith which mention that the Prophet (sws) tied his hands on his chest.[55] This depiction can be understood to mean any place above the naval on which hands are tied. Thus it does not necessarily follow, as certain people have concluded, that the Prophet (sws) tied hands right on the chest.

contd:

for details see march and april 07 issues.

http://renaissance.com.pk/MarWor52y7.htm
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, April 26, 2007  -  10:17 AM Reply with quote
In continueation………………..

Q:- That's Where U r either WRONG or have Some SERIOUS Misunderstanding as One can NEVER find Any CONTRADICTION in a thing that Comes VIA "continuity & consensus" provided One Understand FULLY what these Two TERMS mean Exactly.


R:- That means you do not believe in the verse 4:82. It is expected from you. Whatever may be, let us see the contradiction for an example;

In verse 17:110 it is clearly said that WE MUST OFFER OUR REGULAR SALAT MAINTAINING MODERATE TONE(AUDIBLE TONE). But we know very well that you people do not do this according to Qur’an. You maintain MIXED TONE in your regular salat i.e. you maintain MODERAT TONE in some parts of your regular salat and SILENCE TONE in some parts of your salat and you claim that this come through your continuity and consensus of Muslim Ummah, which(mixed tone in salat) is totally contradicted with the Qur’an. HOW CAN YOU EXPLAIN THIS???


Q:- Yes HERE is My ONLY n Hopefully a v v v SIMPLE Question for a Knowledgable Person like U that "THRU WHAT PROCESS Quran has Reached US in its PRESERVE state according to God's Promise? or in OTHER words, "HOW His Promise has Practically WORKED Till Today n WILL carry ON working till the LAST day, if NOT via "continuity & consensus of Muslim Ummah"? & PLZZZ for GOD sake, DO NOT RUN AWAY from the Straight n To the Pt. Answer of THIS Question; the simplest one for U.
& I think ALL readers will AGREE w ME here that the Required Answer Does NOT NEED Quotation of Even a Single Word from Quran unless n untill Any VERSE Described this PROCESS?
Being a Hafiz of IT n Knowing Arabic v Well, I'm sure there is NO SUCH verse in the WHOLE Quran.


A:- Brother don’t mind to my words because I am going to say you that “pl. don’t blow your own trumpet” by saying that you are Hafiz and you know Arabic v well etc. etc.. Whether you know Arabic v well or not it will be decided latter. For now I discuss here the above issue. You said that Almighty God PRESERVE THE QUR’AN THROUGH THE WAY CONTINUITY AND CONSENSUS OF UMMAH!!! Well

Now please see the another issue;

Hadith were written and compiled in between 150 to 250(approx) years after the death of Prophet Muhammad and from then to till date these hadith came through your process continuity, consensus…..and in this way these hadith are also preserved by Ummah and will be preserved in future. Now question is WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE IN BETWEEN THESE TWO, IF ANY i.e. PRESERVATION OF QUR’AND AND PRESERVATION OF HADITH??? Do you think that Hadith of Muhammad are also preserving through the same way i.e. CONTINUITY, CONSENSUS…. As the Qur’an is? Almighty God said that HE will preserve the QUR’AN, but HE did not say this about Hadith, WHY? Did Almighty God not know that HUMAN CAN PRESERVE THE QUR’AN THROUGH CONTINUITY, CONSENSUS….? IF YES, THEN WHY HE PROMISED HIMSELF TO PRESERVE THE QUR’AN??? The five books of Moses i.e. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, numbers, Deuteronomy and besides these Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekial, Psalms, Proverbs, Daniel etc…etc… these are all called HEBREW BIBLE and are also possessed by Jewish, which reached to them through the same way that is through CONTINUITY, CONSENSUS. Now what is the value of these books in Islam after Revelation of Qur’an????


Almighty Allah told that “He will preserve the Qur’an” that does not mean that ‘we ourselves preserve the qur’an through continuity and consensus!!! Almighty Allah tells us HE will preserve the Qur’an that means HE HIMSELF preserve the Qur’an not we. Almighty Allah preserve the qur’an with Him:

[43:4] IT IS PRESERVED WITH US IN THE ORIGINAL MASTER, honorable and full of wisdom.

[85:21-22] Indeed, it is a glorious Quran. IN A PRESERVED MASTER TABLET.


Now I am giving here another example for your consideration. Pl. see and deeply think on:

[10:92] "TODAY, WE WILL PRESERVE YOUR BODY, to set you up as a lesson for future generations." Unfortunately, many people are totally oblivious to our signs

Pharaoh’s body, about which the above verse says, is preserved. Do you know in which year his body was founded?? It was 1889 and since then Pharaoh’s body has been preserving in Royal Museum in Egypt. The MOST IMPORTANT MATTER IS Pharaoh’s body was missing for about 3116 years. Now I ask you during this long years WHERE WAS HIS BODY AND WHO PRESERVED IT AND HOW? Is it your continuity, consensus? Ha.....

So brother your theory of continuity and consensus is totally baseless and these are not ANY CRITERION(FURQAN), the ONLY CRITERON (FURQAN) IN ISLAM IS ONLY QUR’AN. So brother I again say you that ” THE QURAN IS THE FIRST TRUTH, AGAINST WHICH EVERYTHING ELSE MUST BE COMPARED”.

To be continued………….
Abrar75

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, April 27, 2007  -  4:58 AM Reply with quote
Dear Sher Ali,

You still did not reply my questions. Please read this.

Regarding the Book and sunnah as authorities I believe that the Book of Allah is to be preferred to all. If the purport of a sunnah and hadeeth is not opposed to the Book of Allah, it would be accepted as authoritative, but we will not accept an interpretation of a sunnah and hadeeth which is opposed to the clear text of the Holy Quran. In what discourse apart from Allah and His commandments will they believe? (45: 7). This means that if the Holy Quran is conclusive and positive about a matter and its meaning is clear, a believer should not accept a hadeeth which is clearly opposed to it.

As all this activity was ex post factum, it was no more than conjecture; yet it would be most unfair to say that sunnah and ahadeeth are vain and useless and false. So much care was taken in compiling the ahadeeth, and such research and criticism were employed in the task, that they cannot be matched in any other religion. The Jews also had compilations of hadeeth and Jesus was opposed by that sect of the Jews who followed the ahadeeth, but it is not proved that the Jewish compilers of hadeeth had exercised that care in compiling their collections as the Muslim compilers of hadeeth did.
Say 'If you love Allah, follow me; then will Allah love you and forgive you your sins.' And Allah is Most Forgiving and Merciful. (3:31)

The correct way, therefore, is neither to treat the Sunnah and ahadeeth as having greater authority than the Quran, as do the Ahl-i-hadeeth of this age, and not to prefer the statements in the ahadeeth which are contradictory of the Quran to the Quran itself; nor to regard the ahadeeth as vain and false as is the belief of Ahl-i-Quran.

And finally brother please does not be in doubt. Quran says, And most of them follow only conjecture. Surely, conjecture avails naught against the truth. Verily, Allah is well aware of what they do. (10:36)

I again ask you some questions?

How may Rakaat you pray in Fajar and other prayers?
Did you recite “Darood Shareef” and “Ath a iat” in your prayers?
How you do “Wudu”?
How much you pay Zakat, What is basis of this calculation?
What are processes of Pilgrim (Hajj) according to you?
Did all four Imams and ohte millions of nobel peoples who followed Sunanh and “Ahadith e Sahihah” were not pious according to you?
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, April 27, 2007  -  8:34 AM Reply with quote
Quote:-just to clarify an imp point here that although the tremendous treasure ofthe prophets sws teachings in the formof ahadeeth is an unmatching source of education, but hadeeth does not add or subtract anything to the religion/deen of islam;it just compliments it with better explanation and understanding. the deen is completely available in it's major sources i.e. Qur'an and the Sunnah of the prophet sws.

Reply:-From where you got it from?Would you please provide any reference from Quran and Sunnah?If you can not so I would only say that,Don't blindly follow your scholar.See from bellow (bolt one)the hadith of Prophet(pbuh) and verces of Quran in this regards.


Narrated Al-Irbad ibn Sariyah as-Sulami: We alighted with the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) at Khaybar, and he had his companions with him. The chief of Khaybar was a defiant and abominable man. He came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Is it proper for you, Muhammad, that you slaughter our donkeys, eat our fruit, and beat our women? The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) became angry and said: Ibn Awf, ride your horse, and call loudly: Beware, Paradise is lawful only for a believer, and that they (the people) should gather for prayer. They gathered and the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) led them in prayer, stood up and said: Does any of you, while reclining on his couch, imagine that Allah has prohibited only that which is to be found in this Qur'an? By Allah, I have preached, commanded and prohibited various matters as numerous as that which is found in the Qur'an, or more numerous. Allah has not permitted you to enter the houses of the people of the Book without permission, or beat their women, or eat their fruits when they give you that which is imposed on them. (Sunan Abu Dawud Book #19, Hadith #3044)

Ahaith is the only source from where we can found what Prophet forbit and what He allowed for us on top of what have already mentioned in Quran.Quran its self told us that.

And My mercy embraces all things. So I shall prescribe it for those who fear Allâh and pay zakâh (obligatory alms) and those who have faith in Our signs; those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet whom they find written down in the Torah and the Injîl, and who bids them to the Fair and forbids them the Unfair, and makes lawful for them the good things, and makes unlawful for them the impure things, and relieves them of their burdens and of the shackles that were upon them. So, those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light that has been sent down with him- they are the ones who acquire success. (7:156-157)

I am surprize why after clear verses of Quran and ahadith people don't willing to follow them.In reply you all will see their own words to explain it only or no reply.Thats forsure.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Friday, April 27, 2007  -  9:12 AM Reply with quote
In continuation......

Q:- Br. We too Believe that "Islam completed during the life time of Muhammad by the GOD" but this COMPLETE Religion is Reaching YOU n ME via "Twaatur n Ijmaa". Plz Try to Understand Our pt. of View at LEAST n I hope that NOW You'll Understand the REASON of Our INSIST on "Twaatur n Ijmaa".


R:- Do you really believe that ‘Islam was completed during the life time of Muhammad by the God through the Nobel Qur’an’?? If yes, then why do you believe that Prophetic Hadith besides Qur’an is ANOTHER SOURCE OF LAW OF ISLAM WHEN ISLAM HAD ALREADY BEEN COMPLETED THROUGH THE QUR’AN DURING THE LIFE TIME OF MUHAMMAD? If you really believe that Islam was completed through the Nobel Qur’an, then Why Do You Not Believe That The Qur’an’s Word Is The Final Word In Respect Of Religion Islam????


Q:- Br. That's Where Your Misunderstanding LIES. No ONE even the Christians n Jews have EVER Claimed that there is a CONSENSUS on the BIBLE (Total of All Pre. Scriptures) n it Fulfill the Condition of CONTINUITY. As U have said, Its a Mixture of Divine Scriptures, Ahadith of Moses, Jesus n of their All other Prophets, Biography of Prophets, History of that time & So on so Forth & MOST ImportantlyDiff. Parts of BIBLE are Either "Riwayat" of a Companion (like All Injeels) or Have been Written By a BOARD of their SCHOLARS (as text Books are Written). Therefore, there is NO question that ALL THESE are GOD Given SOURCES??


R:- Brother, don’t try to bypass my main point, which is Qur’an does not say even a single word about continuity, consensus taking them as source of law of islam.

2ndly, you said that ‘No ONE even the Christians n Jews have EVER Claimed that there is a CONSENSUS on the BIBLE (Total of All Pre. Scriptures) n it Fulfill the Condition of CONTINUITY’.

>>>>>>Then in what manner All these reached to the present days’ Jews & Christians community??? How could you say that no one amongst Christians and Jews claims so??? I have many Christian friends and they also claim that their scriptures came to them through the process of continuity……..

You said “Importantly Diff. Parts of BIBLE are Either "Riwayat" of a Companion (like All Injeels) or Have been Written By a BOARD of their SCHOLARS”

>>>>>>>How the BOARD OF SCHOLARS Written these without any consensus of their opinion and how it reached to present day without consensus, continuity????

Q:- The Case of Islam is Totally Different. Quran n Sunnah are its PRIMARY SOURCES n BOTH are in their PRESERVE FORM; 1st is Wordly n 2nd is Practically. That's Why HADITH is NOT Taken as Primary Source as It Does NOT Fulfill the Conditions of "Continuity & Consensus"
I hope that From My Explanations it's Also Crystle Clear that "Continuity & Consensus" does NOT fall in the Category of "following the BASELESS practices of PARENTS" that Have Been condemned in the Quran.
Moreover, its your misunderstanding again that the acts of their parents have come through continuity n consensus to next Generation.
In Contrast, That's ONE of the MAIN Critisizm of Quran against them


R:- What does mean to say SUNNAH? SUNNAH means practice i.e. what Muhammad practiced is called SUNAH. Muhammad did not practiced anything BESIDES QUR’AN. So Qur’an was the practice of Muhammad. Am I right brother?? Source of Law of Muhammad was ONE i.e. QUR’AN not two and the SOURCE OF LAW OF ISLAM for us is also ONE i.e. QUR’AN not two as you claimed. There is not a single word in the Qur’an saying ‘Sunnah of Muhammad’. I again say ” THE QURAN IS THE FIRST TRUTH, AGAINST WHICH EVERYTHING ELSE MUST BE COMPARED”. We should not accept anything as Islamic which is not in the Qur’an. We should rule only in accordance with Qur’an.

I am glad to know that you are believing now that Hadith are NOT ANY SOURCE OF ISLAM. Thank you.


You said “, its your misunderstanding again that the acts of their parents have come through continuity n consensus to next Generation”.

>>>>> Then brother, could you please describe ‘how it came to them, if not through continuity………..’?

Samsher
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Friday, April 27, 2007  -  1:11 PM Reply with quote
Salam,

Q:- however, just like Allah has made arrangements to guard the Qur'an for all the times to come, the teachings of the beloved sws have been secured in the followers practices.


R:- This is your opinion, NOT THE QUR’ANIC TRUTH, because you can’t give any reference from Qur’an in support of your said opinion. The TRUTH is Almighty God preserved the Qur’an, not anything, even HE did not promise to preserve HIS OWN PREVIOUS SCRIPTURES.


The followers of other religions secured their religious practices also, but does that mean all these should be considered as source of law??? I again say “The Qur’an Is The First Truth, Against Which Everything Else Must Be Compared”.


Q:- Similarly, anyone who does not believe in the Sunnah, actually refuses to believe in the Holy Qur’a'n also. Therefore someone who does not believe in the Sunnah cannot claim to be a Muslim.


R:- brother, refrain from giving ‘Fatwa’. You should at least give some reference from Our Religious Criterion i.e. From Qur’an in support of your ‘Fatwa’, if not, then don’t try to misguide others by giving your own opinion.


Dear Abrar75,

I am new in this discussion and want to say my views with my little knowledge. I think the Muslims have three sources for establishing themselves on Islamic guidance. First, the Holy Quran which is the Book of God, the final and conclusive. It is the Word of God and is free from all doubt and speculation. Secondly, the practice of the Holy Prophet, which is called Sunnah. The third source of guidance is hadeeth.


R:- As you are new so you should read all the discussions held between me and others in respect of Qur’an, hadith & sunnah and after reading all if you have any question then please send this, I shall InshAllaha try to respond to your questions. However, for this time only I am giving you my opinion in short;

You opined that our SOURCE OF ISLAM IS THREE i.e. Qur’an, Sunnah and hadeeth.

Brother, could you please give me any reference from the Qur’an in support of your said opinion? Qur’an says that ‘IT ITSELF IS THE ONLY SOURCE OF LAW’ (6:114-115), Because IT IS COMPLETE, PERFECT AND FULLY DETAILED. So I think these words of Almighty Allah should be sufficient for the BELIEVERS.


Muhammad was sent to DELIVER THE MESSAGE QUR’AN. He did not establish any practice leaving aside the Qur’an. He practiced only Qur’an.

[42:48] If they turn away, we did not send you as their guardian. Your sole mission is delivering the message.

[5:92] You shall obey GOD, and you shall obey the messenger, and beware. If you turn away, then know that the SOLE DUTY OF OUR MESSENGER IS TO DELIVER THE MESSAGE EFFICIENTLY.

[5:99] THE SOLE DUTY OF THE MESSENGER IS TO DELIVER THE MESSAGE, and GOD knows everything you declare and everything you conceal.

The ‘RAKAAH’ system of prayer comes from outside source. Qur’an does not support this system.

Qur’an does not fix any percentage of ‘ZAAKAT’ i.e. 2.5%

How many steps do you follow in your Wudu? Are you satisfied with the words of God in the following verse OR do you follow extra steps besides these?

[5:6] O you who believe, when you observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), you shall: (1) wash your faces, (2) wash your arms to the elbows, (3) wipe your heads, and (4) wash your feet to the ankles.


Brother, the activity of maximum people IS NOT ANY CRITERION FOR TRUTH. WE SHOULD ONLY CONCERN WHAT QUR’AN SAYS AND QUR’AN SAYS THAT MAXIMUM PEOPLE ARE NOT BELIEVERS. IF YOU FOLLOW THE MAXIMUM PEOPLE THEN THEY WILL DIVERT YOU FROM THE PATH OF GOD.

[6:116] If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of GOD. They follow only conjecture; they only guess.

[12:103] Most people, no matter what you do, will not believe.

[12:106] The majority of those who believe in GOD do not do so without committing idol worship.

Qur’an is FULLY DETAILED, that means ALL THAT REQUIRE FOR OUR SALVATION ARE GIVEN BY ALMIGHTY GOD IN DETAIL IN THE QUR’AN. We don’t require any other source(S) for our salvation besides Qur’an. If we find any other source regarding our religion, then it will be proved that WE ARE NOT SATISFIED WITH ONLY THE QUR’AN, WHICH ALMIGHTY ALLAH DESCRIBED AS FULLY DETAILED, COMPLETE & PERFECT.

I again say If the Quran, the Word of God, alone is not enough for us, then we should consider whether we can truly identify ourselves as slaves of God, followers of the examples of Abraham and Muhammad. Perhaps all debates should begin with this assumption: that the Quran alone is sufficient as a criterion against which to discuss anything anyone proposes with respect to worship, exactly as it it written, without footnotes.

Samsher
Abrar75

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, April 30, 2007  -  4:47 AM Reply with quote
Dear brother Sher Ali,

Do you believe in propheices of Quran. I have more than 50 written with me and I belive it is more than this. (Please refer to discusion "How to convince Ethetics" in this forum.

Same is good for Ahadiths as well. I ahve more than 50 with me, which is fullfilling now.
But I will send it to you only then, if you will belive in them. This show that how it s great.

Please not hare that I am not saying that Ahadiths are equal to Quran. Quran is ultimate guidence and we should reject all those Ahadiths which are against Quran. But Ahadiths are also a great treasure and most part is good. So we should accpet those part which are not againt Quran and Shariah.

You know, in these days many non muslims are so rigid that they deny all prophecies of Quran, although Quran is full of Prophecies. Hope you will not so rigid and atleast accpet those prophecies mentioned in Ahadiths.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Monday, April 30, 2007  -  9:57 AM Reply with quote
Dear brother Abrar,

Please at first try to give your reply to my questions which I posed before you through my earlier mail. Please also read my opinion in the above post and if you think that I am wrong, then please give any or some reference(s) from the Quran in support of your opinion that I am wrong. I want ONLY QURANIC REFERENCE, because IT IS THE FURQAN(CRITERION) OF OUR RELIGION ISLAM.

I believe in the WHOLE QUR’AN like a believer do. At first I took the responsibility to convince the ‘Muhammadan’ through this forum, If I successful, then I shall InshAllah try to convince the Ethetics.


Q:- Please not hare that I am not saying that Ahadiths are equal to Quran. Quran is ultimate guidence and we should reject all those Ahadiths which are against Quran.


R:- Then do you ready to reject the Ahadith which say that Juhr, Asr, 3rd unit of Maghrib and 3rd & 4th unit of Eesha prayers should be offered in SILENCE TONE(Note Moderate Tone), when Qur’an says that we should offer our salat in moderate tone(17:110)???


Do you ready to reject the Ahadith, which instruct you MORE STEPS IN ABLUTION(WUDU) THAN THE STEPS DECREED BY THE QUR’AN???


Q:- But Ahadiths are also a great treasure and most part is good. So we should accept those part which are not againt Quran and Shariah.

R:- Which part is brother? Pl. give any reference. More over what is good and what is bad are not the matter. The v.v. important matter is here ‘ALMIGHTY GOD TOLD US IN QUR’AN THAT WE SHOULD NOT SEEK ANY OTHER SOURCE AS OUR SOURCE OF LAW BESIDES QUR’AN & IT IS FULLY DETAILED, PERFECT AND COMPLETE(6:114-115). We should only abide by these words of Almighty God. We must not take any other thing/source AS OUR SOURCE OF ISLAMIC LAW. So what is the good and what is the bad are not any matter here.


We can read anything but can’t take them as SOURCE OF ISLAMIC LAW. This is the TRUTH, whether you accept or not will not change anything.


Q:- You know, in these days many non muslims are so rigid that they deny all prophecies of Quran, although Quran is full of Prophecies.

R:- Brother is this way As ahadith followers, may be you, deny the prophecies of 3:82?


Q:- Hope you will not so rigid and atleast accpet those prophecies mentioned in Ahadiths.


R:- For your kind info. I am saying you that I do not accept any prophecies mentioned in your fabricated Ahadiths OR it will be most right to say that I THREW ALL YOUR AHADITH(fabricated and falsely attributed on Prophet Muhammad) TO THE DUSTBIN.Do you feel sorrow brother to hear this??? I can't do anything because it is the fact.

I ACCEPT ONLY THE QUR’AN AND QURANIC PROPHECIES.

Samsher.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Monday, April 30, 2007  -  1:20 PM Reply with quote
AOA Abrar

quote:

Same is good for Ahadiths as well. I ahve more than 50 with me, which is fullfilling now.


Are you saying that there are more than 50 Hadith prophecies which are now comimg true? I must admit that is a surprise. Would you post some of these which have been fulfilled.
Perhaps I have misunderstood you then you can explain what you mean.

Regards
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, May 02, 2007  -  9:53 AM Reply with quote
Salam to All,


I am sending my opinion here against Br.ibraheem, the moderator’s two false claims, which are follows;

He claims;

In ALL "Sunan" (Practical matters of Islam) Muslim Ummah Does NOT need any EVIDENCE from Quran. they JUST need the "Ijmaa" (Consensus) & "Tawaatur" (continuity) JUST like they Need these TWO for the Whole Quran.

MY Opinion:

According to the Quran following the crowd or majority or the consensus of people to find the truth is wrong. There are numerous verses of the Quran condemning such a mentality e.g. 6:116, 12:103 & 106 etc..etc..

Before Galileo Christiendom had consensus regarding flat earth.
Catholics have consensus regarding the deity of Jesus and Mary.

Then, why could those who call themselves Sunni or Shiite not have similarly false ideas?

Furthermore, what is the definition of consensus? If you exclude those who disagree with a particular group as heretics, then consensus is a sectarian trick.


Moderator’s claim:

"Tawaatur" needs NO authentication Bcoz there is Nothing MORE authentic in this World than a Tawaatur. For Example How authentic is Quran in your Opinion? It's the Best Example of Tawaatur & in Fact All Examples of Tawaatur r as authentic as Quran is. That's Y I always ASK all people Like U, that if not VIA Tawaatur then How this 1428 yr OLD Quran has Reached in your Hands?

My Opinion:

This is a lie. First of all, if one's belief and trust in the Quran is based on tawatur of some people, the source of faith and trust is misplaced. That person is muslim because of the crowd, or the number of heads. The followers of all false religions use EXACTLY the same reason to justify the fabricated lies about God.

As for the Quran's authenticity; it did not needed people, especially those who fabricated volumes of hadith and contradictory sectarian laws. The Quran is divinely protected via an internal mathematical system. Despite some errors or temperance committed by previous generations, the divine protective system embedded in the Quran, authenticates the Quran.


Samsherali
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, May 04, 2007  -  5:22 AM Reply with quote
we can understand the importance of the practical teachings by the prophet sws,and ijma'(consensus) 'n tawatur(perpetuation) from the following.
for example Qur'an gives hukum/order for sala'h; all the following details were given 'n forwarded by the prophet pbuh in their perfect and final form.same goes for other aspects of worship and all practical matters in life.

if Qur'an gave details of every rule 'n regulation it has passed/ordered, there would have been so much of text that it would be difficult to handle it/carry it/read it-something like the guru book, Sri Guru Granth Sahib in sikhism i had a chance to see-remains in the temple and whoever has to read must come to the temple and do so.



contd:

iv. Qawmah

When the Prophet (sws) would rise after kneeling, he would stand up straight such that his spine would come back to its original position.[62] Generally, he would stand for the same amount of time as he would kneel but sometimes would stand for longer periods of time giving the impression that he had forgotten to proceed for the next ritual.[63] He would remark: “A person’s prayer would not be worth God’s attention who while rising after kneeling does not straighten his back and goes into prostration.”[64]



v. Prostration

When the Prophet (sws) would go into prostration, he would join his fingers and spread his palms.[65] The fingers would face the ka‘bah[66] and the hands would be placed adjacent to the shoulders and sometimes in front of the ears[67] and so far apart that a baby goat could pass below them.[68] He would also keep apart his arms from his body to the extent that a person standing behind him could see the whiteness of his arm pits.[69] He would place his feet upright,[70] join both his heels,[71] and would turn the fingers of his feet in the direction of the ka‘bah.[72] He would say: “I have been directed to prostrate through my forehead, nose, both hands, both knees and the fore-feet.”[73]



vi. Jilsah


In between the two prostrations, the Prophet (sws) would spread his feet and composedly sit on them.[74] He would use up almost equal time in jilsah, prostration, qawmah[75]; however, sometimes, like qawmah, he would sit in the jilsah for a long time giving the impression that he had forgotten to proceed.[76] It has also been reported that sometimes instead of standing up straight after the second prostration, he would sit down and then stand up for the next rak‘at.[77]



vii. Qa‘dah

The Prophet (sws) would sit in qa‘dah in just the same way as in jilsah by spreading one feet and sitting on it.[78] The right foot would be upright[79] and he would spread his right hand on the right knee and the left one on the left knee and would raise his pointing finger.[80] He would do this by coiling all the other fingers and placing his thumb on the centre finger and sometimes would make a circle with both of them.[81]

In the last rak‘at of the prayer, he would sometimes sit in a manner that he would place his left hip on the floor and take out the left feet towards the right one.[82]

To the end the prayer, he would generally turn to both his right and his left. [83]

He would complete all these rituals of the prayer with thoroughness and diligence and would counsel people to do so as well.[84]

contd:

(adapted from monthly Renaissance)

http://renaissance.com.pk/MarWor52y7.htm

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