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aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, July 28, 2011  -  11:28 AM Reply with quote
quote:

...... The words used are always "obey the word messenger". This is to emphasise that it is the "message" of God that is to be obeyed and not the personal words or views of the messenger.......... the followers of hadith have made claims that their cherished hadith books (primarily Bukhari and Muslim) are fully authentic (Sahih) and without corruption!...............

Samsher,

Instead of answering the questions I had asked in my post you have copied and pasted some text from the writings of Hadith rejectors like Rashid Khalifa.

Allah says,

Al-Baqara (The Cow)

ثُمَّ أَنتُمْ هَـؤُلاء تَقْتُلُونَ أَنفُسَكُمْ وَتُخْرِجُونَ فَرِيقاً مِّنكُم مِّن دِيَارِهِمْ تَظَاهَرُونَ عَلَيْهِم بِالإِثْمِ وَالْعُدْوَانِ وَإِن يَأتُوكُمْ أُسَارَى تُفَادُوهُمْ وَهُوَ مُحَرَّمٌ عَلَيْكُمْ إِخْرَاجُهُمْ أَفَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِبَعْضِ الْكِتَابِ وَتَكْفُرُونَ بِبَعْضٍ فَمَا جَزَاء مَن يَفْعَلُ ذَلِكَ مِنكُمْ إِلاَّ خِزْيٌ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يُرَدُّونَ إِلَى أَشَدِّ الْعَذَابِ وَمَا اللّهُ بِغَافِلٍ عَمَّا تَعْمَلُونَ (2:85)

Translation of the meanings:

2:85 (Y. Ali) After this it is ye, the same people, who slay among yourselves, and banish a party of you from their homes; assist (Their enemies) against them, in guilt and rancour; and if they come to you as captives, ye ransom them, though it was not lawful for you to banish them. Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?- and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.

In order to prove your deviant view, you have ignored the Verses which I conveyed to you. I repeat one such Verse:

An-Nahl (The Bee)
بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ وَالزُّبُرِ وَأَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الذِّكْرَ لِتُبَيِّنَ لِلنَّاسِ مَا نُزِّلَ إِلَيْهِمْ وَلَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ (16:44)

[16:44] With clear signs and Books (We sent the Messengers). And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) the reminder and the advice (the Quran), that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.

I wrote:

To hadith rejecters: WHERE ARE THOSE EXPLANATIONS THAT ALLAH COMMANDED THE LAST PROPHET TO MAKE? Allah allowed them to be lost? ... how would those explanations help our generation?

After that I quoted some more Verses (Please scroll back and read) and then I wrote:

NOW, WILL ANY HADITH REJECTOR GUIDE ME ON HOW I CAN OBEY THE FINAL MESSENGER (Muhammad SAW) if his sayings and his guidance are not available to me, as claimed by them?

Those who believe in the authenticity of hadeeth collections compiled by Bukhari, Muslim etc advise me to consider these collections to be truthful and consider them as the sayings and guidance of the FINAL MESSENGER (Muhammad SAW).

Why should I suspect years of research work done centuries ago by sincere, honest and righteous Isalmic scholars?

Simply because a few of the ahadeeth does not suit my temperament or make keep me away from things I love to do?

Kindly ponder over this: the FINAL MESSENGER (Muhammad SAW) of Allah is supposed to be a role model for us (the whole of mankind), but how can I follow him or learn from his role if his guidance is not available to me at all. Will Allah ever ask His servants to do something impossible (follow some one whose sayings are not available at all in authentic form)?


Edited by: aboosait on Thursday, July 28, 2011 11:52 AM
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Friday, July 29, 2011  -  7:52 AM Reply with quote
@ Samsher INDIA: You have Posted - Thursday, July 28, 2011 - 8:41 AM, among other things, three Verses ending with <wa ma_ alar rasu_li il lal balaghul mubin>”

quote:

............. <wa ma_ alar rasu_li il lal balaghul mubin>” (5:92) ....
.

But Qur'an says فَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّمَا عَلَى رَسُولِنَا الْبَلاَغُ الْمُبِينُ in this Verse and not wa ma_ alar rasu_li as claimed by you. Please note the difference.

Similarly,
quote:

....<wa ma_ alar rasu_li il lal balaghul mubin>” (64:12) ....
The Verse reads فَإِنَّمَا عَلَى رَسُولِنَا الْبَلَاغُ الْمُبِينُ (64:12 and not wa ma_ alar rasu_li as claimed by you.

Also you wrote,
quote:

...<wa ma_ alar rasu_li il lal balaghul mubin>” (24:54)....
.

This is found in Verse 24:54. وَمَا عَلَى الرَّسُولِ إِلاَّ الْبَلَـغُ الْمُبِينُ

It appears from your post that either you have not read those Verses from the Qur'an or that you are deliberately posting falsehood and misguidance. And as I said earlier, remember Allah's words "Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? "

Have you chosen to disbelieve the Verse:

[فَذَكِّرْ إِنَّمَآ أَنتَ مُذَكِّرٌ - لَّسْتَ عَلَيْهِم بِمُسَيْطِرٍ ]

(So remind them -- you are only one who reminds. You are not a dictator over them.) [88:21-22]

And the Verse,

[16:44] With clear signs and Books (We sent the Messengers). And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) the reminder and the advice (the Quran), that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.


Edited by: aboosait on Friday, July 29, 2011 8:30 AM
samsher

INDIA
Posted - Friday, July 29, 2011  -  9:04 AM Reply with quote
[pre]
quote:

quote:

...... The words used are always "obey the word messenger". This is to emphasise that it is the "message" of God that is to be obeyed and not the personal words or views of the messenger.......... the followers of hadith have made claims that their cherished hadith books (primarily Bukhari and Muslim) are fully authentic (Sahih) and without corruption!...............

Samsher,

Instead of answering the questions I had asked in my post you have copied and pasted some text from the writings of Hadith rejectors like Rashid Khalifa.

Allah says,

Al-Baqara (The Cow)

ثُمَّ أَنتُمْ هَـؤُلاء تَقْتُلُونَ أَنفُسَكُمْ وَتُخْرِجُونَ فَرِيقاً مِّنكُم مِّن دِيَارِهِمْ تَظَاهَرُونَ عَلَيْهِم بِالإِثْمِ وَالْعُدْوَانِ وَإِن يَأتُوكُمْ أُسَارَى تُفَادُوهُمْ وَهُوَ مُحَرَّمٌ عَلَيْكُمْ إِخْرَاجُهُمْ أَفَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِبَعْضِ الْكِتَابِ وَتَكْفُرُونَ بِبَعْضٍ فَمَا جَزَاء مَن يَفْعَلُ ذَلِكَ مِنكُمْ إِلاَّ خِزْيٌ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يُرَدُّونَ إِلَى أَشَدِّ الْعَذَابِ وَمَا اللّهُ بِغَافِلٍ عَمَّا تَعْمَلُونَ (2:85)

Translation of the meanings:

2:85 (Y. Ali) After this it is ye, the same people, who slay among yourselves, and banish a party of you from their homes; assist (Their enemies) against them, in guilt and rancour; and if they come to you as captives, ye ransom them, though it was not lawful for you to banish them. Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?- and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.

In order to prove your deviant view, you have ignored the Verses which I conveyed to you. I repeat one such Verse:

An-Nahl (The Bee)
بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ وَالزُّبُرِ وَأَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الذِّكْرَ لِتُبَيِّنَ لِلنَّاسِ مَا نُزِّلَ إِلَيْهِمْ وَلَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ (16:44)

[16:44] With clear signs and Books (We sent the Messengers). And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) the reminder and the advice (the Quran), that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.

I wrote:

To hadith rejecters: WHERE ARE THOSE EXPLANATIONS THAT ALLAH COMMANDED THE LAST PROPHET TO MAKE? Allah allowed them to be lost? ... how would those explanations help our generation?

After that I quoted some more Verses (Please scroll back and read) and then I wrote:

NOW, WILL ANY HADITH REJECTOR GUIDE ME ON HOW I CAN OBEY THE FINAL MESSENGER (Muhammad SAW) if his sayings and his guidance are not available to me, as claimed by them?

Those who believe in the authenticity of hadeeth collections compiled by Bukhari, Muslim etc advise me to consider these collections to be truthful and consider them as the sayings and guidance of the FINAL MESSENGER (Muhammad SAW).

Why should I suspect years of research work done centuries ago by sincere, honest and righteous Isalmic scholars?

Simply because a few of the ahadeeth does not suit my temperament or make keep me away from things I love to do?

Kindly ponder over this: the FINAL MESSENGER (Muhammad SAW) of Allah is supposed to be a role model for us (the whole of mankind), but how can I follow him or learn from his role if his guidance is not available to me at all. Will Allah ever ask His servants to do something impossible (follow some one whose sayings are not available at all in authentic form)?


Edited by: aboosait on Thursday, July 28, 2011 11:52 AM


Quote:- 2:85 (Y. Ali) After this it is ye, the same people, who slay among yourselves, and banish a party of you from their homes; assist (Their enemies) against them, in guilt and rancour; and if they come to you as captives, ye ransom them, though it was not lawful for you to banish them. Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?- and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.

Answer:- I am surprised why did you refer this verse here specially the highlighted portion. Any way, You told that this is my deviant view. What is the meaning of deviant brother? I think it should be deviate. Please check the word in dictionary. However, may I ask you which view of mine you considered is deviant? Is it that Hadith should be rejected as source of Islam? If yes, then brother you please give me any reference from Qur’an where it says that prophetic(??) Hadith besides Quran should be taken as source of Islam.


Quote:- [16:44] With clear signs and Books (We sent the Messengers). And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) the reminder and the advice (the Quran), that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.

Answer:- Highlighted portion of verse 16:44 :- Traditionalists have opted for what we consider an inaccurate rendering of the Arabic root word "BYN." The word 'lituBaYyeNa is a derivative of "BYN," which is a multiple-meaning word. It means:
1. To reveal what is concealed; or
2. To explain what is vague.
Thus the first meaning is the antonym of "hide," and the second is the antonym of "make vague." We should understand this passage in accordance with the first meaning, and understand the passage as relating to God's order to Muhammad to proclaim the revelation which is revealed to him personally. Now why should we understand this passage in accordance with the first meaning? Because we believe that the Quran is clear, as its text itself insists.

Indeed, "proclaiming" is the whole mission of the messengers of God, as the Quran maintains (16:35). To be sure, prophets sometimes experience difficulty in proclaiming the revelation (33:37, 20:25). But if the Quran is a profound book written in Arabic so that people may understand (12:2), if it is to be explained by God (75:19), and if it is simple to understand (5:15; 26:195; 11:1; 54:17; 55:1-2), then it is hard to see why or how the prophet is to assume the additional mission of explaining the divine message.

I emphasize, once again, that 75:19 holds that God explains the Quran, and makes no mention of Muhammad or any other prophet, or indeed any human explanation whatsoever. Thus, the word lituBaYyeNa of 16:44, which we should read as "proclaim," is similar to the one in 3:187. Verse 3:187 tells us that the people who received the revelation should "… proclaim the scripture to the people, and never hide it." (3:187)

What this means is that the messenger is authorised only in delivering/proclaiming the message of the Quran and nothing else. All what he preaches to us from the Quran must be obeyed, but not any other teachings that do not have reference or authorisation in the Quran. To obey the messenger blindly in every word he ever uttered is the work of those who are intent on making an idol out of the messenger, and they do so by corrupting yet another Quranic verses which says “obey God and the messenger”.

The moment they uphold the personal sayings of the messenger or any kind of personal teachings which are not authorised in the Quran they immediately become guilty of idol worship:


"They follow idols who decree for them religious laws never authorized by God. If it were not for the predetermined decision, they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, the transgressors have incurred a painful retribution." 42:21

Quote:- I wrote:


NOW, WILL ANY HADITH REJECTOR GUIDE ME ON HOW I CAN OBEY THE FINAL MESSENGER (Muhammad SAW) if his sayings and his guidance are not available to me, as claimed by them?

Answer :- I think you got the answer. 2ndly as per Quran, Muhammad was not the Final Messenger.


"Muhammad was not the father of any man among you. He was a messenger
of God and the final prophet. God is fully aware of all things". 33:40

It clearly transpires from the above verse that Muhammad was the Final prophet but not the Final messenger.

samsher[/pre]
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Friday, July 29, 2011  -  3:24 PM Reply with quote
quote:

...... Now why should we understand this passage in accordance with the first meaning? Because we believe that the Quran is clear, as its text itself insists..........

Who understood deen better - those companions of the Prophet who took the deen directly from him or 'modernist' muslims?

I have to repeat Allah’s words again:

“ Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest?”

This because you are leaving out Verses relevant to the topic under discussion picking random unrelated Verses and saying that Qur’an does not support my claim.
quote:

please give me any reference from Qur’an where it says that prophetic(??) Hadith besides Quran should be taken as source of Islam.

You cannot ask me to re-write the Qru'an in your words, The following Verses are enough to come to the conclusion. Hadith is a record of those explanations, instructions and teachings of the Prophet.

Allah says: (translation of menings)

"And We have sent down unto You the Message so that you may explain clearly to men what is sent for them." [An-Nahal, 16:44].

And He says: (translation of menings)

"Allah did confer a great favor on the Believers when He sent among them a Messenger from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs (Verses) of Allah, purifying them, instructing them in Scripture, and teaching them Wisdom. While before that they were in manifest error." [A'ale Imran 3:164].

Take the meanings as understood by the early Muslims who learnt the deen directly from the Prophet Sallallahu 'alaihi wasallam.

quote:

The moment they uphold the personal sayings of the messenger or any kind of personal teachings which are not authorised in the Quran they immediately become guilty of idol worship
Read the above Verses again. Allah is authorizing the Prophet to explain, train and teach th people. Those alive saw him and heard him. They passed on these teachings in the form of Hadith. The Hadith rejectores are thus rejecting the Verses authorizing the Prophet to explain, train and teach.

These illogical and irrational underdeveloped minds who started interpreting the Verses to suit their whims and fancies popped up during british rule in India in the form of Parvezis and Qadianis. Where were they before 150 yrs?


Edited by: aboosait on Saturday, July 30, 2011 3:08 AM
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Friday, July 29, 2011  -  3:40 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Muhammad was the Final prophet but not the Final messenger.

samsher
Allah says,

Al-Fath [48:29]

Al-Fath [48:29]
مُّحَمَّدٌ رَّسُولُ اللَّهِ وَالَّذِينَ مَعَهُ أَشِدَّاء عَلَى الْكُفَّارِ رُحَمَاء بَيْنَهُمْ تَرَاهُمْ رُكَّعًا سُجَّدًا يَبْتَغُونَ فَضْلًا مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَرِضْوَانًا سِيمَاهُمْ فِي وُجُوهِهِم مِّنْ أَثَرِ السُّجُودِ ذَلِكَ مَثَلُهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَمَثَلُهُمْ فِي الْإِنجِيلِ كَزَرْعٍ أَخْرَجَ شَطْأَهُ فَآزَرَهُ فَاسْتَغْلَظَ فَاسْتَوَى عَلَى سُوقِهِ يُعْجِبُ الزُّرَّاعَ لِيَغِيظَ بِهِمُ الْكُفَّارَ وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ مِنْهُم مَّغْفِرَةً وَأَجْرًا عَظِيمًا

48:29 Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.

And He says,

مَّا كَانَ مُحَمَّدٌ أَبَا أَحَدٍ مِّن رِّجَالِكُمْ وَلَكِن رَّسُولَ اللَّهِ وَخَاتَمَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمًا

33:40 Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.

quote:

It clearly transpires from the above verse that Muhammad was the Final prophet but not the Final messenger.


Nabi (Prophet) is a general cadre and a Rasul (Messenger) a special one. As such, every Rasul is a Nabi but this is not true vice versa. This is like saying that all Generals are army men but all army men are not generals.

When the Qur’an says that the institution of Nabuwwat (Prophethood) has been terminated, it means that the institution of Risalat (Messengerhood) has also been terminated since the closure of a general cadre automatically means that the upper ones have also been terminated.

If the above example is taken, we can say that if there is no army then there are no Generals of course.

And Allah says,

Al-Anbiya (The Prophets)

قُلْ إِنَّمَا أُنذِرُكُم بِالْوَحْيِ وَلَا يَسْمَعُ الصُّمُّ الدُّعَاء إِذَا مَا يُنذَرُونَ (21:45)

21:45 (Y. Ali) Say, "I do but warn you according to REVELATION": But the deaf will not hear the call, (even) when they are warned!





Edited by: aboosait on Saturday, July 30, 2011 3:22 AM
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Saturday, July 30, 2011  -  2:18 AM Reply with quote
quote:

.........You told that this is my deviant view. What is the meaning of deviant brother? I think it should be deviate. Please check the word in dictionary...........


You better check the dictionary before making such comments:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/deviant

de·vi·ant  [dee-vee-uhnt] –adjective
=deviating or departing from the norm; characterized by deviation eg.: deviant social behavior.


Edited by: aboosait on Saturday, July 30, 2011 2:19 AM
ibrahim

PAKISTAN
Posted - Sunday, July 31, 2011  -  3:55 AM Reply with quote
quote:

I fully agree with the views of this website Studying Islam and give my regards to it's founder. May he live long life. I pray that Allah makes them successful in their ventures because this is the only hope for the dying nation of Muslims.ammeen.
loraha! Bundle of thanks for your encouraging comments & prayers. We need many more. Jzakallah
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Sunday, July 31, 2011  -  5:16 AM Reply with quote
quote:

quote:

I fully agree with the views of this website Studying Islam and give my regards to it's founder. May he live long life. I pray that Allah makes them successful in their ventures because this is the only hope for the dying nation of Muslims.ammeen.
loraha! Bundle of thanks for your encouraging comments & prayers. We need many more. Jzakallah
@ ibrahim PAKISTAN:

Whose quote was that and from which page did you take it?
samsher

INDIA
Posted - Monday, August 01, 2011  -  10:19 AM Reply with quote
quote:

quote:

...... Now why should we understand this passage in accordance with the first meaning? Because we believe that the Quran is clear, as its text itself insists..........

Who understood deen better - those companions of the Prophet who took the deen directly from him or 'modernist' muslims?

I have to repeat Allah’s words again:

“ Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest?”

This because you are leaving out Verses relevant to the topic under discussion picking random unrelated Verses and saying that Qur’an does not support my claim.
quote:

please give me any reference from Qur’an where it says that prophetic(??) Hadith besides Quran should be taken as source of Islam.

You cannot ask me to re-write the Qru'an in your words, The following Verses are enough to come to the conclusion. Hadith is a record of those explanations, instructions and teachings of the Prophet.

Allah says: (translation of menings)

"And We have sent down unto You the Message so that you may explain clearly to men what is sent for them." [An-Nahal, 16:44].

And He says: (translation of menings)

"Allah did confer a great favor on the Believers when He sent among them a Messenger from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs (Verses) of Allah, purifying them, instructing them in Scripture, and teaching them Wisdom. While before that they were in manifest error." [A'ale Imran 3:164].

Take the meanings as understood by the early Muslims who learnt the deen directly from the Prophet Sallallahu 'alaihi wasallam.

quote:

The moment they uphold the personal sayings of the messenger or any kind of personal teachings which are not authorised in the Quran they immediately become guilty of idol worship
Read the above Verses again. Allah is authorizing the Prophet to explain, train and teach th people. Those alive saw him and heard him. They passed on these teachings in the form of Hadith. The Hadith rejectores are thus rejecting the Verses authorizing the Prophet to explain, train and teach.

These illogical and irrational underdeveloped minds who started interpreting the Verses to suit their whims and fancies popped up during british rule in India in the form of Parvezis and Qadianis. Where were they before 150 yrs?


Edited by: aboosait on Saturday, July 30, 2011 3:08 AM


Quote:- Who understood deen better - those companions of the Prophet who took the deen directly from him or 'modernist' muslims?

I have to repeat Allah’s words again:

“ Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest?”


Answer :- Brother, which part of the Qur’an, do you think, says all companions of the prophet understood deen better than ‘modernist’ muslim? Please give example from the Quran.

Quote:- This because you are leaving out Verses relevant to the topic under discussion picking random unrelated Verses and saying that Qur’an does not support my claim.

Answer:- Sometimes to understand the meaning of a particular word of a verse we should see in the Quran where this word is used and how? This is the just way to read and understand the Qur’an. In this case he word lituBaYyeNa of 16:44, is similar to the one used in 3:187 which tells us that the people who received the revelation should "… proclaim the scripture to the people, and never hide it." (3:187). So surely Qur’an does not support your claim..

Quote :- You cannot ask me to re-write the Qru'an in your words, The following Verses are enough to come to the conclusion. Hadith is a record of those explanations, instructions and teachings of the Prophet. Allah says: (translation of menings)

"And We have sent down unto You the Message so that you may explain clearly to men what is sent for them." [An-Nahal, 16:44].

Answer :- Brother, the meaning of the highlighted portion is incorrect as I had already told. Please read the verse 3:187 and compare the meaning of the word in concerned used in both the verses. The duty of the messenger was only to deliver/proclaim the Qur’an without any change. It is Almighty God who can only explain the Quran. Muhammed was not authorized to do it.

Prophet Muhammad was not the teacher of the holy Quran as hadith followers claim! Teacher of the Quran is Allah Himself.

[The Quran 55:1] The Most Gracious.
[55:2] Teacher of the Quran.
[55:3] Creator of the human beings.

Quote:- Nabi (Prophet) is a general cadre and a Rasul (Messenger) a special one. As such, every Rasul is a Nabi but this is not true vice versa. This is like saying that all Generals are army men but all army men are not generals.

When the Qur’an says that the institution of Nabuwwat (Prophethood) has been terminated, it means that the institution of Risalat (Messengerhood) has also been terminated since the closure of a general cadre automatically means that the upper ones have also been terminated.

Answer:- You opined that ‘Nabi (Prophet) is a general cadre and a Rasul (Messenger) a special one”. Where did you find this theory?


Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall translated 3:81 as follows:


"When Allah made (His) covenant with the prophets, (He said): Behold that which I have given you of the scripture and knowledge. AND AFTERWARD THERE WILL COME UNTO YOU A MESSENGER confirming that which ye possess. Ye shall believe in him and ye shall help him. He said: Do ye agree, and will ye take up My burden (which I lay upon you)in this (matter)? They answered: We agree. He said: Then bear witness. I will be a witness with you."


The above verse clearly informs us that “every messenger was not prophet”. Verse 3:81, among many other verses, provides the definitions of "Nabi" (Prophet) and "Rasoul" (Messenger). "Nabi" is a messenger of God who delivers a new scripture, while "Rasoul" is a messenger commissioned by God to confirm existing scripture; he does not bring a new scripture. According to the Quran, every "Nabi" is a "Rasoul," but not every "Rasoul" is a "Nabi".


Moses, the messenger prophet:

In 19:51, Moses was described by God as a messenger prophet (Rasoulan Nabyya), and not as a prophet messenger (Nabyyan Rasoula).

Ismail, the messenger prophet:

In 19:54, Ismail is described with the same words, "Rasoulan Nabyyan".
The reason is that, not every Rasoul (Messenger) is a Nabi (Prophet), but every Prophet (Nabi) is a Messenger (Rasoul), so God defined the word Rasoul by adding to it "Nabyya". In other words, Ismail was a messenger and also a prophet. God does not make mistakes and He does not place His words in a haphazard sequence, it is meant to be in this order.

Other examples are found in the Quran to clarify this description:

Human being messenger:

"Am I more than a human messenger (Basharan Rasoula)" 17:93

Notice, " a human messenger" and not "a messenger human".
The reason is that not every Bashar (human) is a Rasoul (messenger) while every Rasoul (messenger) from among us is a Bashar (human).

17:94, has the same expression again, human messenger (Basharan Rasoula), not (Rasoulan Bashara)

Angel messenger:

" ...... we would have sent to them from the sky an angel messenger (Malakan Rasoula)" 17:95

Notice, "an angel messenger" and not "a messenger angel (Rasoulan Malaka). Here the reason is that not every angel is a messenger.

Perhaps one of the strongest indications in the Quran that the words prophet and messenger do not have the same meaning, is found in the following verse:

"We did not send before you any messenger nor a prophet, without having the devil interfere in his wishes. God then nullifies what the devil has done. God perfects His revelations. God is Omniscient, Most Wise." 22:52

If the words prophet and messenger had the same meaning God would not be saying "messenger nor a prophet", would He? Had the two words had exactly the same meaning, then mentioning one of them would have been sufficient.

samsher
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Monday, August 01, 2011  -  3:26 PM Reply with quote
quote:



Perhaps one of the strongest indications in the Quran that the words prophet and messenger do not have the same meaning, is found in the following verse:

"We did not send before you any messenger nor a prophet, without having the devil interfere in his wishes. God then nullifies what the devil has done. God perfects His revelations. God is Omniscient, Most Wise." 22:52

If the words prophet and messenger had the same meaning God would not be saying "messenger nor a prophet", would He? Had the two words had exactly the same meaning, then mentioning one of them would have been sufficient.

samsher
Same old copy paste of off topic material.

Whoever said here that prophet and messenger have the same meaning?

"God would not be saying this" - "God wouldnot be saying that" - "mentioning one of them would have been sufficient". etc. etc. --- Telling God to re- submit the Qur'an? Astagfirullah. A'oodhu billah.
samsher

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, August 02, 2011  -  5:48 AM Reply with quote
[pre]Quote:- Same old copy paste of off topic material.

Whoever said here that prophet and messenger have the same meaning?

"God would not be saying this" - "God wouldnot be saying that" - "mentioning one of them would have been sufficient". etc. etc. --- Telling God to re- submit the Qur'an? Astagfirullah. A'oodhu billah.

Reply :- What is your probleme brother. Do you understood the meaning of the verses which, according to you, I copied and paste to you(smile)? Do you understood the meaning of verses 17:93-94? Did you understand the meaning of the verses 19:51 & 52? Above all do you understood the meaning of verse 3:81? Particularly this verse clearly transpires that “every messenger was not prophet”.

Now come to the point. You told that ‘Nabi (Prophet) is a general cadre and a Rasul (Messenger) a special one, every Rasul is a Nabi but this is not true vice versa.”. I asked you ‘Where did you find this theory’? You did not able to answer my question. I know you never be able to prove your point because this is yours whimsical opinion as Qur’an says otherwise(3:81).

Brother, I don’t require to tell GOD to resubmit the Qur’an rather you should tell to GOD, because the present Qur’an do not supports your any whim.


I resubmit the main discussion point ( verse 16:44, 3:164) here for the forums member as follows:

If we read 16:44 and 3:164 on their own we may indeed think that the messenger can fully explain the Quran to the people and that he is the teacher of the Quran,

but what happens when we read 55:1-2 which says that Allah is the teacher of the Quran?

also what happens when we read 75:19 where God is speaking to the messenger and telling him that it is Allah who will explain the Quran?

as you see, when we read other verses we get a different picture,

so what is the common meaning that would be in harmony with all the Quranic verses and not just 3:164 and 16:44?

The common meaning is that the messenger delivered the Quran to the people and he spent all his remaining days preaching the Quran and commanding people to follow it and showing them what the Quran wants them to do ....

but the messenger cannot guide anyone or guarantee that all people will understand the true message of the Quran,

it is God , and God alone, who can guide the people and truly explain the message of the book to the ones who deserve the guidance ..........
the messenger is a tool and a medium between God and the people, but the messenger cannot change what is in the heart nor can he implant belief into any heart nor can he guide anyone, he can only pass the message ..........

"the sole duty of the messenger is to deliver the message (Quran)" 5:92

this does not only apply to the messenger, it applies to any Imam or Islamic teacher etc .... there are thousands of such teachers all over the world giving lectures, lessons and sermons .......they all try to explain the Quran, but do all their listeners understand the message of the book?

Those who understand the true message are a very small minority, this is confirmed in the Quran:

"the majority of those who believe in Allah do not do so without committing shirk (associating partners with God)" 12:106


Samsher.[/pre]
samsher

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, August 02, 2011  -  5:49 AM Reply with quote
[pre]Quote:- Same old copy paste of off topic material.

Whoever said here that prophet and messenger have the same meaning?

"God would not be saying this" - "God wouldnot be saying that" - "mentioning one of them would have been sufficient". etc. etc. --- Telling God to re- submit the Qur'an? Astagfirullah. A'oodhu billah.

Reply :- What is your probleme brother. Do you understood the meaning of the verses which, according to you, I copied and paste to you(smile)? Do you understood the meaning of verses 17:93-94? Did you understand the meaning of the verses 19:51 & 52? Above all do you understood the meaning of verse 3:81? Particularly this verse clearly transpires that “every messenger was not prophet”.

Now come to the point. You told that ‘Nabi (Prophet) is a general cadre and a Rasul (Messenger) a special one, every Rasul is a Nabi but this is not true vice versa.”. I asked you ‘Where did you find this theory’? You did not able to answer my question. I know you never be able to prove your point because this is yours whimsical opinion as Qur’an says otherwise(3:81).

Brother, I don’t require to tell GOD to resubmit the Qur’an rather you should tell to GOD, because the present Qur’an do not supports your any whim.


I resubmit the main discussion point ( verse 16:44, 3:164) here for the forums member as follows:

If we read 16:44 and 3:164 on their own we may indeed think that the messenger can fully explain the Quran to the people and that he is the teacher of the Quran,

but what happens when we read 55:1-2 which says that Allah is the teacher of the Quran?

also what happens when we read 75:19 where God is speaking to the messenger and telling him that it is Allah who will explain the Quran?

as you see, when we read other verses we get a different picture,

so what is the common meaning that would be in harmony with all the Quranic verses and not just 3:164 and 16:44?

The common meaning is that the messenger delivered the Quran to the people and he spent all his remaining days preaching the Quran and commanding people to follow it and showing them what the Quran wants them to do ....

but the messenger cannot guide anyone or guarantee that all people will understand the true message of the Quran,

it is God , and God alone, who can guide the people and truly explain the message of the book to the ones who deserve the guidance ..........
the messenger is a tool and a medium between God and the people, but the messenger cannot change what is in the heart nor can he implant belief into any heart nor can he guide anyone, he can only pass the message ..........

"the sole duty of the messenger is to deliver the message (Quran)" 5:92

this does not only apply to the messenger, it applies to any Imam or Islamic teacher etc .... there are thousands of such teachers all over the world giving lectures, lessons and sermons .......they all try to explain the Quran, but do all their listeners understand the message of the book?

Those who understand the true message are a very small minority, this is confirmed in the Quran:

"the majority of those who believe in Allah do not do so without committing shirk (associating partners with God)" 12:106


Samsher.[/pre]
samsher

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, August 02, 2011  -  6:00 AM Reply with quote
Quote:- When the Qur’an says that the institution of Nabuwwat (Prophethood) has been terminated, it means that the institution of Risalat (Messengerhood) has also been terminated

Reply:- Brother, where Qur'an says so? Rather Qur'an says otherwise in (3:81).
why do you express your opinion without any reference from Qur'an?
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Sunday, August 07, 2011  -  3:05 AM Reply with quote
quote:

this (Quran 5:92) does not only apply to the messenger, it applies to any Imam or Islamic teacher etc ....

samsher, please answer your own question w.r.t. your above statement.
quote:


.........why do you express your opinion without any reference from Qur'an?


Edited by: aboosait on Thursday, August 11, 2011 3:18 PM
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, August 11, 2011  -  3:14 PM Reply with quote
quote:

"the sole duty of the messenger is to deliver the message (Quran)" 5:92


That is only a cut and trimmed part of Verse 5:92. Who authorised you to cut out fragments of Verses off topic and interpret wrongly to prove your deviant views?

Here is the Verse 5:92 and the translation of its meanings.


وَأَطِيعُواْ اللّهَ وَأَطِيعُواْ الرَّسُولَ وَاحْذَرُواْ فَإِن تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّمَا عَلَى رَسُولِنَا الْبَلاَغُ الْمُبِينُ (5:92)

5:92 (Y. Ali) Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and beware (of evil): if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Messenger's duty to proclaim (the message) in the clearest manner.

Compare this with your translation. You have also written, I quote,

quote:

... there are thousands of such teachers all over the world giving lectures, lessons and sermons .......
A'oodhu billah. Astagfirullah. You are equating the teachers all over the world to the Prophet?
samsher

INDIA
Posted - Friday, August 12, 2011  -  6:38 AM Reply with quote
Quote:- samsher, please answer your own question w.r.t. your above statement.

Answer:- which question do you refer here brother?

Quote:- That is only a cut and trimmed part of Verse 5:92. Who authorised you to cut out fragments of Verses off topic and interpret wrongly to prove your deviant views?

Here is the Verse 5:92 and the translation of its meanings.

وَأَطِيعُواْ اللّهَ وَأَطِيعُواْ الرَّسُولَ وَاحْذَرُواْ فَإِن تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّمَا عَلَى رَسُولِنَا الْبَلاَغُ الْمُبِينُ (5:92)

5:92 (Y. Ali) Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and beware (of evil): if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Messenger's duty to proclaim (the message) in the clearest manner.


Answer:- I don’t find any difference between the discussion part of the translation. I wanted to say by quoting the verse in portion that ‘the sole duty of the messenger is to deliver/proclaim the message(quran).

If you do not want to listen me then please try to listen the message of the following verses;

[5:99] THE SOLE DUTY OF THE MESSENGER IS TO DELIVER THE MESSAGE, and GOD knows everything you declare and everything you conceal.

[24:54] Say, "Obey GOD, and obey the messenger." If they refuse, then he is responsible for his obligations, and you are responsible for your obligations. If you obey him, you will be guided. THE SOLE DUTY OF THE MESSENGER IS TO DELIVER (the message).

Please compare these with the first one, whic I sent.

Quote:- A'oodhu billah. Astagfirullah. You are equating the teachers all over the world to the Prophet?

Answer:- You even did not realize what I wanted to say by saying this.(smile).

Do you think that ALL the listeners of prophet Muhammad understood the message of Qur’an? If you think so please provide reference.

Brother, you even did not answer my question, which I posed on August 02, 2011 ? Why do you keep silence about this?

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