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sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, April 19, 2007  -  9:43 AM Reply with quote
Salam,


Q:- After the Holy Qur’a#n, the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (sws) is the source of faith in Islam.

R:- According to Qur'an your statement is absolutely WRONG. As per Qur'an the only religious source of Islam is ONLY THE NOBEL QUR'AN.


Q:- It needs to be appreciated that all higher religions, in addition to their sacred texts, have a set of rites, rituals, manners, mores, etiquette and religious practices. ….. Islam also has a set of such practices.

R:- Dear sister, don't compare Islam with other religions because the only acceptable religion in the sight of GOD is ISLAM. There is no other religion(higher, lower….ect..etc…)

2ndly, Islam has a set of rites, rituals, manner etc..etc… BUT NOT OUTSIDE THE QUR’AN as you wanted to say because Qur’an says us that IT is Fully Detailed, Complete and Perfect…..IT is the Only Religious Source(6:114-115, 6:38, 7:52, 10:37, 12:111, 18:27, 18:54, 18:109-110 & 39:27)


Q:- These practices are not all of equal importance. Some of them are considered mandatory while the others just introduce manners or etiquette or they are symbolic in nature, signifying larger realities of faith.


R:- Which practices are mandatory and which are etiquette….?? If you can’t prove it from the Qur’an, then don’t misguide others by spreading rumours.


Q:- Among all such practices and mores, the most dear to the Muslims are those that

• are essentially religious in nature
• were instituted by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (sws), (who is the only personality in Islam having the right to declare anything religious)

R:- Prophet Muhammad had NO RIGHT TO DECLARE ANYTHING WRONG OR RIGHT ABOUT ISLAM. Only Almighty God has the power to declare these. Muhammad followed only the revelations.

Q:- have reached us through the reliable historical process of tawa'tur.

R:- historical process of tawa'tur is not any CRITERION of Islam. The Only CRITERION(Furqan) of Islam is Nobel Qur'an(25:1).

Q:- This means

1. When we say that the Sunnah has reached us to Tawa'tur we mean to say that so that such a large number of people have transmitted the Sunnah acts in each generation starting from the Companions (rta) that the Sunnah acts have bee rendered beyond any alteration in any manner). These practices are called the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (sws).


R:- As I said tawa'tur has no value in Islam OR tawa'tur is not a criterion of Islam, for an example Muhammadans offer their salat in mixed tone, which reached us through tawa'tur. But Qur'an does not support this. IT(Qur'an) says us we should offer our salat in MODERATE TONE(17:110). So your tawa'tur has no value in Islam.


Q:- Since Islam claims to have been the religion of all humanity since Adam (sws), and claims that Noah (sws), Abraham (sws), Moses (sws), David (sws) and Jesus (sws) were ……. ………….significance to Islam.

R:- We are accountable only for Qur'an and nothing else……..

to be continued...
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, April 19, 2007  -  9:45 AM Reply with quote
In continuation……………..


Q:- The religious rites and rituals instituted by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (sws) are almost the same as those included in Abraham’s tradition of faith.


R:- How many times Prophet Abraham offered SALAT in a day???

Some believe that the practices that were given to Abraham, were preserved and were practised at the time of Muhammad.

If we stick to Quranic evidence we would quickly realise that this claim is totally unfounded.

1- We are told in the Quran of various groups of people at the time of the revelation of the Quran. God mentions the Jews, also the Nasara (Christians) in various verses. God also mentions the idol worshippers who worshipped stone idols (e.g. Allaat and Al-Uzzah …. See 53:19). In all the Quran, there is never a mention of ANY group of believers at the time of Muhammad who followed the pure practices as given to Abraham. To claim that the practices given to Abraham were practiced in their purity at the time of Muhammad is thus an unfounded claim that has no Quranic support whatsoever.

2- We are told in the Quran repeatedly, how the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) have corrupted the scripture given to them (see 4:46, 3:78, 2:75, 5:41). In that light it is hard to see how they could have had a preserved scripture to represent the pure practices and laws that God decreed.

3- We are also told that the rituals, and specifically the prayer, were lost by generations that followed one another …. The claim that the rituals, and specifically the salat, were preserved and passed down generation to generation contradicts the Quranic evidence:

"After them (the prophets of Israel), He substituted generations who lost the Contact Prayers (Salat), and pursued their lusts. They will suffer the consequences." 19:59

Thus the claim that the rituals were preserved and practised at the time of Muhammad is totally without Quranic evidence.

4- We are told in the Quran that although there was some kind of prayer observed by various factions at the kaba (at the time of Muhammad) yet that prayer was totally corrupt:

"Their Contact Prayers (Salat) at the shrine (Ka`bah) were no more than a mockery and a means of repelling the people (by crowding them out). Therefore, suffer the retribution for your disbelief." 8:35

Obviously , a prayer that is described by God as being full of mockery and a means of repelling the people, could hardly be the same Prayer that was given to Abraham. This prayer could not be regarded in any sense as a testimony to the preservation of the salat since Abraham.

Moreover, verse 35 and the verses before it speak specifically about the idol worshippers. Hence the reference to their prayer could not be used to imply that the correct prayer was practised at the time of Muhammad. How could the prayer of idol worshippers be a correct prayer? Yes, it can be said that the Quran informs us that there was some kind of prayer being practiced by the idol worshippers, but in no way does this Salat constitute evidence to justify the notion that Muhammad had access to the uncorrupted Salat as given to Abraham from those around him.

One last comment on 8:35. This verse has always been interpreted to be referring to the time of Muhammad fourteen centuries ago. However, with some analysis, it can be seen that this verse applies as much today as it did fourteen centuries ago. It is a fact that the salat today at the kaba is full of idol worship and glorification of Muhammad, but more important the words in the previous verse (8:34) give us some important clues:

"Have they not deserved God's retribution, by repelling others from the Sacred Masjid ......" 8:34

We can see how these words apply today to the authorities who prohibit the believers from observing their Hajj during the four months decreed by God for Hajj (2:197), and instead they restrict the time allowed for Hajj to the first ten days of the month of Zhu Al-Hijjah

to be continued...
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, April 19, 2007  -  9:48 AM Reply with quote
In continuation……….


Q:- The teachings of Abraham (sws) were conveyed to his sons among whom his first-born Isma#’i#l (sws) finally settled down in Arabia where Bani# Isma#‘i#l (children of Isma#‘i#l) lived and multiplied. Abraham’s younger son Isaac (sws), and Isaac’s son Yaqoob (Israel) founded the clan of Bani# Isra‘i#l (Children of Israel).

Abraham’s teachings and practices were inherited by both the tribes, which developed independently.


R:- The Quran confirms that the practices of Islam are older than the Quran:

"We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers."21:73

According to 21:73 and other verses we are told that the rituals of Islam are older than the Quran and that they were indeed first given to Abraham. However, the words in the verse do NOT say that what we have inherited today, or what was practised at the time of Muhammad, are the pure rituals as given to Abraham without being corrupted.

To analyse the truth of whether we are accountable to what was decreed for Abraham and those before us it is necessary to read the following verse:

"Then We revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with God's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed different ‘Shira’a wa minhaja’ (laws and rites). Had God willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To God is your final destiny-all of you-then He will inform you of everything you had disputed." 5:48

Here we note 3 very important messages:

1-

"We revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with God's revelations"

These words confirm that we are commanded to follow what was revealed to us (Quran) and NOTHING else ….. In this verse the Quran is given the function of "confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them" ……. This asserts the fact that what was given to those before us has now been replaced by the Quran. We are thus accountable only to what is revealed to us (Quran) …. And not what was given to Abraham or the others. To insist that we are following rituals that we inherited from as far back as Abraham is in violation of the words "superseding them" that describe the Quran in 5:48

2-

The words "For each of you, we have decreed laws and different rites." tell us that the rituals given to each people (including us) are not identical to the ones given to those before them. As a result, and although we all follow the same creed of Monotheism and submission to God (Islam), yet the specific rituals and practices are different for different people.

3-

Moreover, the words "He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you." tell us a truly important matter. Here we are told that even though some (or all) of the rituals may have been passed down to us from those who came before us, yet God will test us and hold us accountable by means of the revelation He revealed to us (Quran) and NOT what was given to those before us. According to these words in 5:48, we shall be tested by the laws, regulations and rites that were given to us in the Quran, and NOT what we inherited from those before us.

Not only did God inform us that each people were given a different set of ‘Shira’a wa minhaja’ (laws), but also that every people were given different RITUALS:

"For each congregation, we have decreed 'Mansakan' (set of rituals/rites) that they must uphold. Therefore, they should not dispute with you. You shall continue to invite everyone to your Lord. Most assuredly, you are on the right path." 22:67 (also 22:34).

We note that the word 'Mansakan', which is used in this verse, is different from the words which are used in 5:48. While as the words ‘Shira’a wa minhaja’ may be related to the laws explaining the methodology of performing the rituals, the word 'Mansakan' is speaking of the RITUALS themselves. We are told that these are not the same for different people. Consequently to claim that we are to follow the exact rituals that were given to Abraham is in violation with 22:67.

to be continued....
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, April 19, 2007  -  9:51 AM Reply with quote
In continuation………..

Now let us take a closer a look at verses 67 to 72 of Sura 22:

"For each 'ummah' (nation), we have decreed 'Mansakan' (set of rituals/rites) that they must uphold. Therefore, they should not dispute with you. You shall continue to invite everyone to your Lord. Most assuredly, you are on the right path.

If they argue with you, then say, "God is fully aware of everything you do."

God will judge among you on the Day of Resurrection regarding all your disputes.

Do you not realize that God knows everything in the heavens and everything on earth? All this is recorded in a record. This is easy for God to do.

Yet, they idolize beside God idols wherein He placed no power, and they know nothing about them. The transgressors have no helper.

When our revelations are recited to them, clearly, you recognize wickedness on the faces of those who disbelieve. They almost attack those who recite our revelations to them. Say, "Shall I inform you of something much worse? Hell is promised by God for those who disbelieve; what a miserable destiny."

We Note from these glorious verses a number of important messages:

1- As mentioned the word 'Mansakan' speaks of rituals and how they are not the same for every people.

2- The words "If they argue with you, then say, "God is fully aware of everything you do" are indeed very significant. The question is 'why would the disbelievers argue with the believers in this context?' ..... the reply is that they will argue with them because the believers choose to follow the rites given in the Quran and NOTHING else? .... the believers are NOT interested in rites that are inherited to them and labelled (came from Abraham)! ...... the believers believe God .... they are content that the Quran contains ALL the religion they must follow.

3- These words are then followed by yet equally potent words, these are:

"Yet, they idolize beside God idols wherein He placed no power, and they know nothing about them. The transgressors have no helper.."

With these words God is stamping His seal on those people that they are idolising others beside God. All those who do not believe God when He confirms that the Quran contains all our religion with ALL the details, regardless of what was decreed for those before us or what we inherited, they are indeed transgressors. They are following rules and rites from outside the Quran, thus they have set up other gods to follow besides God.

4- God's words of truth continue:

"When our revelations are recited to them, clearly, you recognize wickedness on the faces of those who disbelieve. They almost attack those who recite our revelations to them."

If we take a look at the verses leading to 5:48 we note that God holds each receivers of a Scripture accountable only to what they were given in their Scripture, and not to what was given to those before them:

In 5:44 we read that God gave the prophets of Israel the Torah and commanded them to rule with it (Yahkum biha) ..... the last words in the verse give this warning : (those who do not rule with God's revelations are the disbelievers) ....

Then in verse 46 God says that He gave Jesus the Injeel and once again (in verse 47) God repeats the warning He gave to the receivers of the Injeel, the warning about those who do not rule in accordance with the revelation given to them .....

Then (in verses 48 and 49) God tells Muhammad that He gave him the Quran and that he should rule (Bima Anzal Allah) ..... the very first words in verse 48 confirm that (ma Anzal Allah) means the Quran (Kitaab) and nothing else .....

This time the warning of ruling with God's revelations is repeated for us TWICE .... in verse 48 and once again in the first words of verse 49 .......

This warning, together with the confirmation that the Quran supersedes the older Scripture (5:48), confirm that we are not required to follow the previous Scripture which are the source of previous rituals, nor any accounts of what we have inherited, we are only to follow the Quran.

to be continued....
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, April 19, 2007  -  9:53 AM Reply with quote
In continuation………..

Furthermore, the Quran gives us the the message of our accountability to the Quran (and nothing else) on Judgement in very clear words in the following verse:

"This (Quran) is a message for you and your people which you shall all be accountable to" 43:44

"Such is a community from the past. They are responsible for what they earned, and you are responsible for what you earned. You are not answerable for anything they have done." 2:134

"That was a community from the past. They are responsible for what thay earned, and you are responsible for what you earned. You are not answerable for anything they did." 2:141

The message of these two verses is once again loud and clear. We are not answerable to anything done by those before us, they had their rules and rites and we have ours.

The Quran also states a very important matter in the following verse:

"O you who believe, do not ask about matters which, if revealed to you prematurely, would hurt you. If you ask about them in light of the Quran, they will become obvious to you. God has deliberately overlooked them. God is Forgiver, Clement." 5:101

God confirms to us here that there are some matters that He has deliberately overlooked, and thus they are not required by us (they may have been required from those before us). God also tells us that if we inquire of them IN THE LIGHT OF THE QURAN, that they will be obvious to us.

This Quranic verse assures us yet again that what is NOT IN THE QURAN has been overlooked by God and thus is NOT REQUIRED OF US.

Besides all the above verses, this glorious verse also renders such phrases as 'details of rituals as given to Abraham’ as irrelevant. This as well as God's assurance that NOTHING HAS BEEN LEFT OUT OF THE BOOK (6:38), compels us to accept only the details of the rituals that are given in the Quran. If they are not in the Quran, it is either because God has overlooked them, or because they are a corruption that was never authorised by God.

Samsher,India.
ibrahim

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, April 20, 2007  -  8:03 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Salam raushan,
I think it is useless to discuss with you about Islam because you even don’t know what does mean to say “Source of Islam”. Brother our SOURCE OF ISLAM is ONLY ONE THING i.e. Qur’an. But to understand the Qur’an we need to Read It very carefully with pure mind. Now can any one claims that 'as reading is required to understand Qur'an', so reading is another source(as through it we understand the Qur'an)??? NO Brother, it will be absurd claim.
May God Bless you
Samsher
Salam Samsher
We also think that it is useless to discuss with you about Islam because you are STILL Unable to Provide us Any HISTORICAL Proof about your CLAIM that "our SOURCE OF ISLAM is ONLY ONE THING i.e. Qur’an". I'm asking this Q again n again & 1st of All Other ISSUES Bcoz Quran in itself is a Historical Fact as it Was Revealed to our Beloved Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) 14&half Hundered yrs AGO. So WE need to Know That practically HOW the Holy Quran has REACHED in YOUR HANDS as You have REJECTED our cLAIM that it is Transmitting thru the IJMAA'(Consensus) & TWAATUR(Continuity) of Whole Muslim Ummah.
If U remember I asked U this SAME Question a LONG while ago BUT ur Answer was Astonishing as there was NO difference in ur STATEMENT & the Statement that is derived usually from All Ahadith regarding Jam e Quran.
As our Dialog is an OLD one so PLZ provide here again Ur ANSWER of my Q given Above with As Much Detail as U Like Bcoz i sincerely think that This LONG Topic can be Fruitful ONLY if our NEXT Posts move Around SOLELY to the Point mentioned ABOVE. Otherwise it wud be BETTER to STOP this TOPIC.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Monday, April 23, 2007  -  8:43 AM Reply with quote
Salam,

R:- You have done a mistake. Here your statement should be ‘it is useless to discuss with you(samsher) about HISLAM, not Islam’. Do you understand brother?

2ndly, you asked for historical proof regarding the ‘SOURCE OF ISLAM’. Alas!!! I have given you QUR’ANIC PROOF (6:114-115) numerous time but you are not satisfied with that, rather you claimed for historical proof, why not? You people believe in history more than the word of Almighty Allah!!! Brother, when you are not been able to hear, listen or understand the Almighty God’s word, then who am I??? Also it is not possible for me to hear you type of people. Now once again you pl. try to understand the meaning of the following verses.


[2:1-5] A.L.M. This scripture is infallible; a BEACON FOR THE RIGHTEOUS; WHO BELIEVE in the unseen, observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and from our provisions to them, they give to charity. And they believe in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed before you, and with regard to the Hereafter, they are absolutely certain. THESE ARE GUIDED BY THEIR LORD; THESE ARE THE WINNERS.


[10:37] THIS QURAN COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE AUTHORED BY OTHER THAN GOD. It confirms all previous messages, and provides a fully detailed scripture. It is infallible, for it comes from the Lord of the universe.


The believers believe/depend on the above words of God. They do not require any conjecture/contradiction/history to know that the Qur’an is the word of God and also they do not require any history to know that Qur’an revealed to Prophet Muhammad. (2:97, 185, 6:19, 10:37, 15:87). Most importantly, Qur'an does not say a single word in favour of continuity & consensus taking them as Source of Law(religious)

Moreover, anything that comes from other than God is full of contradictions (4:82). So your history is full of contradictions.

We can read ANYTHING, BUT CAN’T TAKE THEM AS ‘SOURCE OF LAW(Islamic religious)’. Our only source of law is QUR’AN(6:114).


Almighty Allah promised to PRESERVE THE QUR’AN (15:9). It reached us through this preservation. 2ndly, Qur’an says Religion(Islam) is completed through the revelation of Qur’an i.e. Islam completed during the life time of Muhammad by the Qur’an (5:3). So, your twatur, ijmaa are not the part(s) of Islam.

Why do you argue in support of continuity & consensus?? According to qur’an these have no value(towards SOURCE OF LAW) in our religion. I am giving you here three points in favour of my opinion, pl. see;

1st point :- previous scriptures i.e. Torah, Injeel etc..etc.. also the hadith of Moses i.e. Mishna, Zemarrah and the hadith of Jesus i.e. Trinity…… all these are reached to present day’s Jewish, Christians through CONTINUITY & CONSENSUS of their nations. Now question is SHOULD ALL THESE BE CONSIDERED AS THEIR OR OUR RELIGIOUS SOURCES?? If not, then Why? If your criterion(furqan) about religion is Continuity & consensus, then all the above must be considered as sources of religious law? Is not it???


2nd point :- Please read the following verse and consider;


[2:170] When they are told, "Follow what GOD has revealed herein," they say, "We follow only what we found our parents doing." What if their parents did not understand, and were not guided?


The above verse clearly condemns to follow the acts of people what their parents are following. The verse also Orders to follow only the REVELATIONS.

According to your theory(continuity & consensus) it is logical to think that the PARENTS mentioned in the above verse are following the practices which reached to them through their previous generations i.e. reached through continuity & consensus of their nations. Then why this verse condemned to follow these acts of the parents? Moreover, the next verse says that those who only followed the acts of their parents(which came through continuity, consensus) are DISBELIEVERS, DEAF, DUMB AND BLIND…


[2:171] The example of such disbelievers is that of parrots who repeat what they hear of sounds and calls, without understanding. Deaf, dumb, and blind; they cannot understand.


To be continued………
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Monday, April 23, 2007  -  9:08 AM Reply with quote
In continuation……………

3rd point:- Now see the practical example. Pl. read;

[17:110] Say, "Call Him GOD, or call Him the Most Gracious; whichever name you use, to Him belongs the best names." You shall not utter your Contact Prayers (Salat) too loudly, nor secretly; use a moderate tone.

These verse clearly says us that we should offer our salat in moderate(audible) tone. But we know very well that you do not offer your regular salat only in that tone. You use mixed tone i.e. in some parts of your salat you use moderate tone and in some parts of your salat you use silence tone and this reached to you through continuity & consensus, which(mixed tone in salat) are totally anti-qur’anic. Now question is which instructions should you follow? Is it the qur’anic or your continuity & consensus?

According to Qur’an, believers should follow ONLY Qur’an and nothing else and according to Qur’an IT itself is the Only Criterion/Furqan/Statute Book(25:1)


[25:1] Most blessed is the One who revealed the Statute Book to His servant, so he can serve as a warner to the whole world.


Brother, It is Qur’anic fact that prophet Muhammad did not preach anything besides Qur’an, then why do you not believe on this qur’anic fact???

[6:19] Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "GOD's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods beside GOD." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry."

[53:2-5] Your friend (Muhammad) was not astray, nor was he deceived. Nor was he speaking out of a personal desire. It was divine inspiration. Dictated by the Most Powerful.


You said that Qur’an itself is a historical fact. Then brother why do you not believe in this historical fact when Qur’an(historical fact)says that ‘we SHOULD NOT SEEK ANY OTHER SOURCE AS SOURECE OF LAW(Islamic) besides IT as IT is fully detailed, complete and perfect??? Brother, at first pl. rectify your principle.

[2:6-10] As for those who disbelieve, it is the same for them; whether you warn them, or not warn them, THEY CANNOT BELIEVE. GOD SEALS THEIR MINDS AND THEIR HEARING, AND THEIR EYES ARE VEILED. They have incurred severe retribution. Then there are those who say, "We believe in GOD and the Last Day," while they are not believers. In trying to deceive GOD and those who believe, they only deceive themselves without perceiving. In their minds there is a disease. Consequently, GOD augments their disease. They have incurred a painful retribution for their lying.

Samsher.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Monday, April 23, 2007  -  12:40 PM Reply with quote
Salam to all,


Too often we become embroiled in arguments over hadith and sunnah with their advocates before considering the disparate assumptions underlying our opposing viewpoints. The debate that ensues often becomes little more than a game, debate for the sake of debate, or a contest to determine the better debater rather than the truth. This complicates discussions. Perhaps while we are occupied in pointless debate, there are others who sincerely wish to know the truth but who are currently deprived of our insight because our time and energy are being consumed by people who have no interest in the truth.

It is my opinion that, if we are quick to entertain debate before we have considered the assumptions underlying the questions, we are bound to wind up with very lengthy responses that do very little to address the central issues.

The first question asks whether rejecting the validity of all "trustworthy" (sahih) hadith is warranted on the basis of examination of a few of them. This implies two assumptions:

(1) that Muslim (Submitters in English) base their entire position regarding hadith and sunnah on the identification of a few flaws; and


(2) that they reject the possibility outright that some hadith may be accurate historical accounts.

Submitters reject hadith first and foremost because the Quran specifically requires the faithful to make THE QURAN THEIR ONLY SOURCE OF GUIDANCE. Textual analysis has nothing to do with it. Analysis of the content of hadith merely serves to corroborate the dictate, after the fact. As for the other point, Submitters do not deny the historical validity of much of hadith. (As Edip Yuksel accurately points out, "we can study hadith to get an approximate idea about the people and events of those times.")

However, Submitters do not bother to undertake the difficult task of sorting out truth from falsehood in them because the primacy of the Quran makes the oral traditions utterly irrelevant as far as guidance is concerned. Given the choice of flawless guidance from the Quran and dubious anecdotes from the hadith, only a fool would choose to study the latter in place of the former.


The second question is really a restatement of the first. It suggests examination of each hadith individually to assess its veracity. Suffice it to say that the underlying assumptions are the same, and the task suggested could only interest a historian or philologist. It would do nothing to enhance the institution of worship as far as Submitters are concerned.


The third question evokes the above-mentioned fear of the prescriptive vacuum: "Suppose we cease to use hadtih as a source of information about the Prophet, his life, and his career. Then we notice that the Quran itself says very little about the Prophet's life. It also says nothing about how the Quran was compiled. The historicity of the Quran is based on hadiths."

The first assumption here is that the Quran's validity is supported solely by historical evidence. While the answer to this assumption is obvious to those truly familiar with the Quran, it is worth noting that the historicity of the Quran is not an issue to those who already accept it as the Word of God. To them, the Quran is the first truth, against which everything else must be compared. Nor does the Quran depend on the opinions of historians to give it importance. Submitters have already gone through the process of assessing its validity, whether on the basis of what they had learned about its historicity or on the basis of other evidence, such as the patient confirmation of the truth of the miraculous code embedded in its text. No longer finding it necessary to assess the veracity of the Quran, they now seek only to obey it.

Finally, there are even bolder assumptions underlying the third question than those I have mentioned. By asserting that "the Quran itself says very little about the Prophet's life" and that it says "nothing about how the Quran was compiled," the questioner assumes that the information that the Quran leaves out is nevertheless vital to our spirituality. (One might ask how the questioner knows that this information is vital, does it say so in a hadith?) The Quran, as we know, is "fully detailed" (6:114). What this tells us is that it is not up to us to decide what the Quran should tell us. If a given issue is truly vital to our spirituality, we will find it addressed in the Quran. If it is not vital, we should not expect to find it there.

Finally, if what is lacking from the Quranic text, how to light a fire, how to bake a cake, how to tie our shoes, really concerns us then let me just add that our role as Submitters is not merely to follow a list of prescriptions, but to come to understand the wisdom behind them through our observance of them. With this wisdom, which increases over time as long as we keep up our genuine worship, we become progressively more capable of finding the answers to life’s questions ourselves. Indeed, God could merely have given us a list of rules to follow (and it would be no exaggeration to say that may "Muslims" perceive Islam in precisely this way!). The Word of God, on the contrary, is designed to see to our evolution as human beings, not to set up a society of robots who cannot think for themselves.

If the Quran, the Word of God, alone is not enough for us, then we should consider whether we can truly identify ourselves as slaves of God, followers of the examples of Abraham and Muhammad. Perhaps all debates should begin with this assumption: that the Quran alone is sufficient as a criterion against which to discuss anything anyone proposes with respect to worship, exactly as it it written, without footnotes.

Samsher
ibrahim

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, April 24, 2007  -  7:42 AM Reply with quote
w salaam Br Samsher
quote:

2ndly, you asked for historical proof regarding the ‘SOURCE OF ISLAM’. Alas!!! I have given you QUR’ANIC PROOF (6:114-115) numerous time but you are not satisfied with that, rather you claimed for historical proof, why not? You people believe in history more than the word of Almighty Allah!!! Brother, when you are not been able to hear, listen or understand the Almighty God’s word, then who am I??? Also it is not possible for me to hear you type of people.
Yes I've asked again for a Historical Proof & I'll Carry on asking for it as our Holy Quran is a PART of History. I can leave my Demand ONLY if You Deny this HISTORICAL FACT that Quran was Actually Revealed to Our Beloved Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) about 1450 years AGO. Do U DARE to DENY it?

Alhamdulillah I already Know the meaning of the verses u've mentioned Again n Again. In Fact, by the Grace of God, I Have a very well Understanding of almost WHOLE of the Holy Quran & my Level of Understanding is Not of an ORDINARY person. BUT still it's My understanding that may be & May NOT be the SAME as of Yours. We may Talk about OUR difference in our Understanding of Quran but LATER, 1stly I need YOUR Answer of my Q. about the Historical Proof.
& one MORE thing, This is NOT the CASE of Believing More in History THAN Quran. Plz Don't TRY to MIX things in a NON-Scholarly WAY. I'm Repeating Again that
"Quran has Travelled about 1450 yrs of Historical journey b4 Reaching in OUR hands". Am I Right or Wrong? If I'm WRONG then Give me your Reasoning BUT if I'm Right, then Give me an Answer that is ONLY n ONLY Based on Historical Facts.
quote:

The believers believe/depend on the above words of God. They do not require any conjecture/contradiction/history to know that the Qur’an is the word of God and also they do not require any history to know that Qur’an revealed to Prophet Muhammad. (2:97, 185, 6:19, 10:37, 15:87).
I'm afraid, I can't Give even a LITTLE VALUE to your Above Statement. Why (on which BASIS) we Do Not Require to Get this Information from History that "the Qur’an is the word of God & the Qur’an was revealed to Prophet Muhammad.? plz Give some SOLID reasons for that? NO One Can HAVE the Believe in QURAN as "Word" of GOD Just Bcoz One Find this CLAIM in it. Tell me plz That Wud you DARE to Declare YOUR Translation of Quran that YOU QUOTE HERE again n again as WORD of GOD? If Yes then plz Explain HOW n If NOT then plz tell us WHY?
quote:

Most importantly, Qur'an does not say a single word in favour of continuity & consensus taking them as Source of Law(religious)
Leave What Quran HAVE said in This regard at the Moment, Bcoz Claim of WHOLE MUSLIM IMMAH is that the WORD of GOD "Quran" has reached in YOUR hands Only n Only by Means of "continuity & consensus". What You Can Say Against this Historical Fact n On What BASIS you can DENY it?
quote:

Moreover, anything that comes from other than God is full of contradictions (4:82). So your history is full of contradictions.
That's Where U r either WRONG or have Some SERIOUS Misunderstanding as One can NEVER find Any CONTRADICTION in a thing that Comes VIA "continuity & consensus" provided One Understand FULLY what these Two TERMS mean Exactly.
quote:

Almighty Allah promised to PRESERVE THE QUR’AN (15:9). It reached us through this preservation.
Yes HERE is My ONLY n Hopefully a v v v SIMPLE Question for a Knowledgable Person like U that "THRU WHAT PROCESS Quran has Reached US in its PRESERVE state according to God's Promise? or in OTHER words, "HOW His Promise has Practically WORKED Till Today n WILL carry ON working till the LAST day, if NOT via "continuity & consensus of Muslim Ummah"? & PLZZZ for GOD sake, DO NOT RUN AWAY from the Straight n To the Pt. Answer of THIS Question; the simplest one for U.
& I think ALL readers will AGREE w ME here that the Required Answer Does NOT NEED Quotation of Even a Single Word from Quran unless n untill Any VERSE Described this PROCESS?
Being a Hafiz of IT n Knowing Arabic v Well, I'm sure there is NO SUCH verse in the WHOLE Quran.
quote:

2ndly, Qur’an says Religion(Islam) is completed through the revelation of Qur’an i.e. Islam completed during the life time of Muhammad by the Qur’an (5:3). So, your twatur, ijmaa are not the part(s) of Islam.
Br. We too Believe that "Islam completed during the life time of Muhammad by the GOD" but this COMPLETE Religion is Reaching YOU n ME via "Twaatur n Ijmaa". Plz Try to Understand Our pt. of View at LEAST n I hope that NOW You'll Understand the REASON of Our INSIST on "Twaatur n Ijmaa".
quote:

Why do you argue in support of continuity & consensus?? According to qur’an these have no value(towards SOURCE OF LAW) in our religion. I am giving you here three points in favour of my opinion, pl. see;
1st point :- previous scriptures i.e. Torah, Injeel etc..etc.. also the hadith of Moses i.e. Mishna, Zemarrah and the hadith of Jesus i.e. Trinity…… all these are reached to present day’s Jewish, Christians through CONTINUITY & CONSENSUS of their nations.
Br. That's Where Your Misunderstanding LIES. No ONE even the Christians n Jews have EVER Claimed that there is a CONSENSUS on the BIBLE (Total of All Pre. Scriptures) n it Fulfill the Condition of CONTINUITY. As U have said, Its a Mixture of Divine Scriptures, Ahadith of Moses, Jesus n of their All other Prophets, Biography of Prophets, History of that time & So on so Forth & MOST ImportantlyDiff. Parts of BIBLE are Either "Riwayat" of a Companion (like All Injeels) or Have been Written By a BOARD of their SCHOLARS (as text Books are Written). Therefore, there is NO question that ALL THESE are GOD Given SOURCES??
The Case of Islam is Totally Different. Quran n Sunnah are its PRIMARY SOURCES n BOTH are in their PRESERVE FORM; 1st is Wordly n 2nd is Practically. That's Why HADITH is NOT Taken as Primary Source as It Does NOT Fulfill the Conditions of "Continuity & Consensus"
I hope that From My Explanations it's Also Crystle Clear that "Continuity & Consensus" does NOT fall in the Category of "following the BASELESS practices of PARENTS" that Have Been condemned in the Quran.
Moreover, its your misunderstanding again that the acts of their parents have come through continuity n consensus to next Generation.
In Contrast, That's ONE of the MAIN Critisizm of Quran against them.
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Tuesday, April 24, 2007  -  8:19 AM Reply with quote
brother ibrahim,
your questions will not be answered because they are not available at submission or masjid tus-kan websites.So its hard for ali to copy and paste from there without giving reference.
All you will get a response to a tailored version of your question as usual.
wassalam
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, April 24, 2007  -  9:49 AM Reply with quote
Salam Raushan,

Q:- your questions will not be answered because they are not available at submission or masjid tus-kan websites.So its hard for ali to copy and paste from there without giving reference.
All you will get a response to a tailored version of your question as usual.

R:- .I know that it is not the REACH of your ability to understand my opinion because you follow HISLAM not Islam and it is a fact(definition) that those who are Idol Worshippers can’t believe in ONE GOD & ONE SOURCE THEORY. Your followed religion i.e. HISLAM is a JOINT STOCK COMPANY RELIGION. You changed the Religion of God into a joint stock religion established by God + messenger + family of the messenger + friends of the messenger + their generations + leaders of sects + scholars of sects....


To prove my statement made above I ask you the following questions only on ONE SUBJECT/MATTER and I am sure your answers, if you are able to give and if you have any courage to give, will prove 100% that you are following JOINT STOCK CO. RELIGION. Now follow the questions:-


a) What is the punishment of adultery according to your teachings? Does Qur’an support your this teachings?


b) When did the goat eat the "verse of stoning to death" as is claimed by Bukhary, Muslim, Tirmizy, Ibn Hanbal ?


c) How was the verse eaten by the goat removed from the Quran after the prophet's death?


d) The six famous books of hadith (kutubi sitta) claim that Omar wanted to put the "stoning verse" into the Quran; but he could not do this because of his fear of people. Don't these books insult Omar as being a hypocrite?


e) This terrible punishment which contradicts 24:1,2 and 4:25, is mentioned throughout th e Quran as the idol worshiper's practice (11:91; 19:46; 36:18; 18:20). Is not this a fact?


f) Do you claim that the "stoning verse" which has been removed from the Quran by a holy goat, is still valid in jurisprudence? And what is your proof that this "verse" was literally abrogated, yet is still legally valid?


g) Your "stoning verse" is narrated by all your holy books as "esheyhu wesheyhetu iza zanaya farcumuhuma elbettete...." Is this consistent with the Quranic prose? You all accept this so called verse concerning married adulterers. What Arabic words does the Quran use for married people? What does "esheyhu wesheyhetu" mean in Arabic? (11:72; 12:78; 28:23; 40:67). According to your literally abrogated but legally valid verse, can a young married adulterer be stoned to death? When is one considered old?


h) Let's accept your terrible claim for awhile that some verses of the Quran have been abrogated. The verse 2:106, according to your misunderstanding states: "Whenever a verse is abrogated, God will substitute a better one or at least a similar one". So, if the "stoning verse" has been abrogated as claimed; God must substitute a better one or a similar one. So, which verse has been substituted for the "goat eaten verse"? According to your abrogation theory, how many kinds of abrogations exist?


i) According to your sectarian belief, even abrogated verses remain in the Quran physically. Why has a verse about such an important issue, i.e., stoning to death, been removed from the Quran physically? Why has the small punishment remained in the Quran and the capital punishment been abrogated?


j) According to your own history, many believers had memorized the Quran by heart during the prophet's time. When the goat ate your verse, what happened to the memorized versions?


k) Why do you slander animals, i.e., monkeys, by following Bukhary who narrates many foolish stories?


l) How many verses have been abrogated in the Quran? Do you agree on their numbers? Do you know these verses: 4:82; 15:90-99; 2:85 ?


Samsher.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, April 24, 2007  -  10:00 AM Reply with quote
Salam Raushan,


Q:- For a religion that purports to follow the Quran[1] ONLY and bases its whole foundation on suspect mathematics (which is in fact numerology), they possess beliefs that are not found in the Quran and use figures that are mere speculation and estimations.


R:- That means as Prophet Muhammad followed Our’an Only, so his religion was based on suspect mathematics as per your nonsense claim!!!


Brother at first try to learn how to ride Cycle, then you should try to dare to ride Motor Cycle, then you should try to dare to ride light weight four wheeler AND THEN YOU SHOULD TRY TO DARE TO RIDE HEAVY WEIGHT FOUR WHEELER. You even don’t know the meaning of the simple verses of Qur’an e.g. 6:114, 17:110, you are going to understand the Mathematical Miracle of Qur’an!!! What an audacity!!!!

Mr, & Miss/Mrs Moderators,

Where are you now?? Are you on Trip of Switzerland? Did you see the Size of Mr. Raushan’s post, which he sent on April 23, 2007?? Did it not exceed the limit of your granted space?? Is he yours friend so that you permitted him to send this long post???

Samsher.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, April 25, 2007  -  12:07 PM Reply with quote
Salam Br. Ibrahim,


Q:- Yes I've asked again for a Historical Proof & I'll Carry on asking for it as our Holy Quran is a PART of History. I can leave my Demand ONLY if You Deny this HISTORICAL FACT that Quran was Actually Revealed to Our Beloved Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) about 1450 years AGO. Do U DARE to DENY it?


R:- I know you and only you type of people can ask this type of idiotic question again & again. I don’t mind anyway. You say Qur’an is a part of History. In one side you claim that you believe history and Qur’an is a part of History but when Qur’an (your history or part of history ) says that the Only Source of Law of Islam is Qur’an Itself, then you do not believe your this history. What a shameful!!!.


2ndly, history is not the subject of our discussion. Our discussion is what is Source of Law of Islam. I already told you that historicity of the Quran is not an issue to those who already accept it as the Word of God. To them, the Quran is the first truth, against which everything else must be compared. Nor does the Quran depend on the opinions of historians to give it importance. Yes, it is the issue of those who can not accept it (Qur’an) as word of God besides the help of other source i.e. history etc…etc…

Qur’an was revealed to Prophet Muhammad and Almighty God told it to us through the Qur’an( I already gave you references from the Qur’an in that respect). I do not require any fabricated history to know this. Oh, yes 1450? It has no value in Islam.


Q:- We may Talk about OUR difference in our Understanding of Quran but LATER, 1stly I need YOUR Answer of my Q. about the Historical Proof.


R:- I have already given my opinion in this regard. Please give your answer regarding my 3 POINTS, which I asked you through my previous post.

History came from men and it contains numerous contradictions, but Qur’an does not(4:82). What is your historical proof that Almighty God exists? Brother, it does not require any historical proof as it does not require (For Those Who Believe) any historical proof for the Qur’an.

[2:2-4]

This scripture is infallible; a beacon for the righteous;

who believe in the unseen, observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and from our provisions to them, they give to charity.

And they believe in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed before you, and with regard to the Hereafter, they are absolutely certain.

Please read the above words given by God, which explain how the believers believe in the Qur’an.

The words;

“they believe in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed before you”

And The words;

“who believe in the unseen”

That is how the believers believe in the Qur’an, not because history says us. We can’t believe in something just because history tells us to believe it. Brother, do you know the history of mankind, which says us that the man was created from monkey through gradual development(Darwin’s Theory)? Brother do you believe on this theory? Does Qur’an support this theory? Qur’an does not support this. So I am once again telling you that;

“The Quran Is The First Truth, Against Which Everything Else Must Be Compared. Nor Does The Quran Depend On The Opinions Of Historians To Give It Importance”.


Q:- & one MORE thing, This is NOT the CASE of Believing More in History THAN Quran. Plz Don't TRY to MIX things in a NON-Scholarly WAY.


R:- Yes, I think this is. If not then you would have been depended only on the Qur’an, not on history and consider it as proof that Qur’an is the word of God. Don’t try to bypass this issue by hook or by crook. You adopted history(contradictions) as proof that Qur’an is the word of God!!!.


To be continued………..
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, April 25, 2007  -  12:33 PM Reply with quote
In continuation........

Q:- I'm Repeating Again that
"Quran has Travelled about 1450 yrs of Historical journey b4 Reaching in OUR hands". Am I Right or Wrong? If I'm WRONG then Give me your Reasoning BUT if I'm Right, then Give me an Answer that is ONLY n ONLY Based on Historical Facts.


R:- I already told you that previous scriptures i.e. Torah, Injeel etc..etc.. also the hadith of Moses i.e. Mishna, Zemarrah and the hadith of Jesus i.e. Trinity…… all these are traveled more than 2500 yrs of Historical journey before reaching in present day’s Jewish, Christians. Am I Right or Wrong? If I am wrong then give me your reasoning but if I am right, then pl. tell me SHOULD ALL THESE BE CONSIDERED AS THEIR OR OUR RELIGIOUS SOURCES?? If not, then Why?


Also the HADITH OF OTHER SECT(S) e.g. hadith of SHIAH Sect also come to them through this history, continuity, consensus…., then should all these also be considered as source(s) of religious law of Shiah besides Qur'an? Please give your answer by saying simple ‘Yes’ or ‘No’.

If your criterion(furqan) about religion is HISTORY, CONTINUITY, CONSENSUS then all the above must be considered as sources of religious law? Is not it???

So Brother, History, Continuity, Conjecture are not any CRITERION of Religion(I think). Our CRITERION of Religion(Islam) is ONLY QUR’AN(25:1)

Also Qur’an does not support the story of your historical journey. I have already given you an example (2nd point in my previous post) in support of my opinion. I am once again citing this;


[2:170] When they are told, "Follow what GOD has revealed herein," they say, "We follow only what we found our parents doing." What if their parents did not understand, and were not guided?


The above verse clearly condemns to follow the acts of people what their parents are following. The verse also Orders to follow only the REVELATIONS.

According to your criterion i.e. history, continuity & consensus it is logical to think that the PARENTS mentioned in the above verse are following the practices which reached to them through their previous generations i.e. reached through history, continuity & consensus of their nations. Then why this verse condemned to follow these acts of the parents? Moreover, the next verse says that those who followed the acts of their parents(which came through history, continuity, consensus)not the revelations are DISBELIEVERS, DEAF, DUMB AND BLIND…

So brother history, continuity, consensus whatever you call are not the criterion of religion. The Criterion of Religion(Islam) is ONLY QUR’AN and nothing else.

“The Quran Is The First Truth, Against Which Everything Else Must Be Compared. Nor Does The Quran Depend On The Opinions Of Historians To Give It Importance”.


Q:- I'm afraid, I can't Give even a LITTLE VALUE to your Above Statement. Why (on which BASIS) we Do Not Require to Get this Information from History that "the Qur’an is the word of God & the Qur’an was revealed to Prophet Muhammad.? plz Give some SOLID reasons for that?


R:- Pl. recall my earlier post where I told you as follows;

“Brother, when you are not been able to hear, listen or understand the Almighty God’s word, then who am I???

So brother, I do not mind what you say. Once again I say pl. see on which basis Believers believed or believe the Qur’an;

How are you certain about your HEREAFTER? What is your history about your HEREAFTER, which is not yet come to you?

Brother, do you not think that the WORD OF GOD is the SOLID PROOF regarding your religion, Islam?? Alas!!! I again say I can’t make hear or understand those who can not hear or understand the God’s word.

to be continued.......
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, April 25, 2007  -  12:54 PM Reply with quote
In continuation……….


Q:- NO One Can HAVE the Believe in QURAN as "Word" of GOD Just Bcoz One Find this CLAIM in it.


R:- Your assumption is WRONG. Every believer will believe, except the disbelievers, in Qur’an.


Q:- Tell me plz That Wud you DARE to Declare YOUR Translation of Quran that YOU QUOTE HERE again n again as WORD of GOD? If Yes then plz Explain HOW n If NOT then plz tell us WHY?


R:- Those who believe i.e. believers think that Qur’an is the message of mankind sent by Almighty God. I used here only English translation of It. Language is a communication method. Muhammad’s language was Arabic and for this reason Almighty God sent the revelations to him in Arabic. Translation does not change the meaning of main message. So I think the translation of Qur’an which I used here at least bears the main message, which is not in any different from the message that Almighty Allah sent to Muhammad.


Q:- Leave What Quran HAVE said in This regard at the Moment, Bcoz Claim of WHOLE MUSLIM IMMAH is that the WORD of GOD "Quran" has reached in YOUR hands Only n Only by Means of "continuity & consensus". What You Can Say Against this Historical Fact n On What BASIS you can DENY it?


R:- Brother, don't try to bypass my question. As I said earlier that Torah, Injeel, Veda all are came THROUGH CONTINUITY, CONSENSUS, HISTORY OF RESPECTIVE NATIONS, that does not mean we should take those as source of religious law. Also it is not necessary that the claim of Muslim Ummah will be universal truth. Maximum people are not in the right path and they follow only conjecture.


[6:116] If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of GOD. They follow only conjecture; they only guess

[12:103] Most people, no matter what you do, will not believe.

[12:106] The majority of those who believe in GOD do not do so without committing idol worship.

to be continued.....

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