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perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Tuesday, August 29, 2006  -  6:46 PM Reply with quote
Salaam Usmani790

I think the elephant story is going in circles and you appear to be backtracking as to what you meant. I dont think much more can be gained from this.

quote:

Even if some ahadith are contradictory what about those which are not on what basis one can put all ahadith aside.





quote:

You are not pointing out any new thing here. No one ever claimed that there no contracditions in ahadith. The point is to ponder is that, due these conticditions which are found only in very few ahadith,


After all this we finally begin to get to the point. You now accept that some hadith (exact number is irrelevent) are wrong and yet still insist that hadith should be the source for deen (we obviousouly have different idea os deen-I believe in deen which I believe is 100% truthful)
I will use a true story, as you seem to like stories, to illustrate my point:-

Beginnin of last century in England, some very rich people were at a dinner party. A man asked a woman sitting next to him if she would sleep with him for a million pound (phenomenal amount in those days) she immediately replied "of course". He then rephrased his question and said "would you sleep with me for one pence" the woman was shocked and replied "what do you take me for", to which the man replied "i have already established that i am just trying to establish the price".
See if you can see the connection between this and the quote from you that I have highlighted!

Your reference from the Quran do not mean what you imply as you yourself have stated that word hadith is not mentioned anywhere in your reference.

I will try to help you out. The word hadith is mentioned over 20 times(sorry I cannot recall exactly of the top of my head) see if you can understand what the Quran thinks of hadiths. Here are two references 45:6 & 7:185 in the ayats the word hadith is clearly written (&surprise, surprise the hadith following translators never leave the word hadith in its original form) and I am sure you can read arabic you will clearly see the word hadith.
If you still wish to read the rest of quranic references where the hadith is mentioned and cannot locate the ayats-I will be happy to oblige.

As for the singh joke-I am glad your sikh friends find it funny. For my sikh friends think it is racist. So we shall leave it that.



Salaam rakhtal

quote:

I disagree with you, Perv 1,

You are welcome and no doubt i will eventually overcome this heartache.

quote:

because you do not understand perhaps it is beyond the scope of your intellectual access
.

You obviousouly are of higher intellect to me, so rather than stating what you believe to be obvious. How about explaining the point to me (of lower intellect than yourself).

quote:

This is just an example or saying to make understand the people having no understanding at all. Take it as a saying only. Perv 1, if you are not understanding the saying at all, Tell me why you do not DARE to say, “Money makes the aeroplane go”, instead of saying “Money makes the mare go” According to your logic, Is the mare more costly or runs faster than an aeroplane?


You are correct you are of different intellect to me, for I have no idea what you are talking about!

quote:

So I totally agree with Usmani790.


Good for you-that really proves how intellectual you are!

Salaam raushan

Rather than this smug Q&A session with yourself (I assume you also enjoy talking to yourself) how about simply addressing the points directly (or do you consider that to be too beneath yoourself)
Anyhow I assume you are advocating that we should use hadith as part of Islam. A simple qustion, as you believe in hadiths, why do you reject prophet when he said do not write anything from me other than the Quran- for this make all hadiths unislamic (answer with references will be appreciated).

Sorry I have not time for checking spelling etc-apolgies for any errors.

regards
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, August 30, 2006  -  12:52 PM Reply with quote
Walaykum Salam Perv 1

Quote:-I think the elephant story is going in circles and you appear to be backtracking as to what you meant. I dont think much more can be gained from this.

Reply: -There is some thing in the story but your angle of seeing is different.

Quote:-After all this we finally begin to get to the point. You now accept that some hadith (exact number is irrelevent) are wrong and yet still insist that hadith should be the source for deen (we obviousouly have different idea os deen-I believe in deen which I believe is 100% truthful)

Reply: -There is no question about the sayings and actions of Prophet (pbuh) are 100% truthful from its origon. The earlier scholars already classified the status of all ahadith, which we found today. If you don’t trust the scholars than there only one choice left for you to study all the ahadith by your self and then comments. As I said and your self also said the similar thing that without seeing the whole picture don’t comment on it negatively.

Allah wants us to follow and obey the prophet (pbuh). Allah is fully aware about the status of ahadith in our time. If the status of ahadith what we have found today is in that bad shape (Nauzobillah) that this could not be followed any longer then surely He never declare in Quran that Muhammad (pbuh) is the last Prophet and rather He should send more Prophets to rectify the Ahadith.He is All Wise All Mighty.
.
Say: Obey Allâh and the Messenger, but if they turn their backs, Allâh loves not the disbelievers. (3:32)

Obeying Allah is obeying Quran, The (and) between Allah and Messenger is clearly showing that here Allah is not referring to Quran, this must be some thing else. Tell me what is this some other than Quran which one should follow beside the Quran? How serious the issue is that if you turn backs then you could be a disbeliever. How can people slept over it?

Don’t to forget that only few Prophets are given the books of Allah.Most of the Prophets (Peace be upon them all) were came with out any book of Allah.People used to follow them without Allah book even after His death.

The other verses of Quran which I have quoted in my earlier post, are also have more or less same messeges. Please read them again, and after reading them again we will found that, how important is for us to follow the commandments of Prophet (pbuh) [which Prophet (pbuh) gave in 23 years of His Prophetic life].

Quote: -See if you can see the connection between this and the quote from you that I have highlighted!

Reply:-I am unable to see any connection, you may elaborate more on the connection for me if there is any.

Quote: -Your reference from the Quran does not mean what you imply as you yourself have stated that word hadith is not mentioned anywhere in your reference.

Reply: -You tell me please how else we can obey and follow the Prophet (pbuh) because this Allah said not my self. What will be any one’s answer to Allah if He ask him why don’t you follow the Prophet (pbuh)?

Quote:-I will try to help you out. The word hadith is mentioned over 20 times.

This is not related to the topic we are discussing here, the word hadith is not mentioned in the verses I have quoted.Its only the name for the record of sayings and actions of Prophet (pbuh). Its also called Sunnah.


Allah Hafiz
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, August 30, 2006  -  8:17 PM Reply with quote
Salamm Usmani 790.

My friend like hadiths that you support you are becoming very contradictory. I will give you simple examples of your own words.

First though some assumptions on my part and please correct me if I am wrong:-

(1) Am I correct that during this very lengthy debate you have vigorousouly defended the hadith as a part of islam

(2) You have accused me of misunderstanding the haidth by not having studied the hadith. (Although you have no idea and i do not recall telling you or anyone else that I have not studied the hadith in detail, in fact the only comment I made was that I rejected them as mere teenager-see if you can draw any conclusion from this).
Your logic on this has been that i cannot make a negative comment regarding hadith as I dont fully know them. Therefore my friend you will agree that by same logic you will accept that I cannot defend something truthfully if I dont know it well or fully- yes agreed.
Please feel free to tell me if you disagree with this reasoning.
Using this logic here some of your quotes


quote:

Sir I never claim that I understand the deen so well infect I only know a little about the deen.


My friend am I right to assume that you are being honest bove.

And then you state:

quote:

So brother ahadith is a vast subject. I know here in Pakistan people who went to Darul uloome, they have to study straight eight years to achieve the knowledge to Quran, Ahadith and fiqa(Drss-e-Nizami). After achieving this and if the person remain in this field so he used to always keep in though with Quran and Ahadith and he always keep in touch with others seniors and spend quite a good time of his life in this field. This person only considered a reliable fellow who understood the Quran and Ahadith and can say that he has seen the whole picture



I look forward to your explanation of the above.

I will briefly address some of your other points:

Following the messange does not mean follow the hadith. It means follow what God has revealed to the messanger- which implies all the Gods messangers not just Mohd. If you want to follow Prophet Mohd then follow the Quran(Gods word via prophet Mohd)-not CONTRADICTORY MAN MADE HADITH.

The story was to illustrate that the man had established that the woman was of low moral character who would sell her body for money, price was not an issue of morality.
therefore on that basis YOU YOURSELF HAVE ACCEPTED THAT HADITHS ARE CONTRADICTORY (correct me if i am wrong). Contradiction=lie. Therefore the fact that some hadith may contain truths or words of wisdom do not take away that they contains lies (the amount and degree is irrelevent). Do you now understand the connection of the story!

I gave you just 2references from the Quran which contains the word hadith. You did not even vaguely try to explain what these mean.

We can discuss numerous other hadiths and quranic refeences but we will go through few points at a time to keep things simple.
regards
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, August 31, 2006  -  12:46 PM Reply with quote
Walaykun Salam Perv1

Quote:- Am I correct that during this very lengthy debate you have vigorousouly defended the hadith as a part of islam

Reply: -Yes I have defended them with help of Quranic verses, with my own understanding of religion and with common sense.

Quote: -You have accused me of misunderstanding the haidth by not having studied the hadith. (Although you have no idea and i do not recall telling you or anyone else that I have not studied the hadith in detail, in fact the only comment I made was that I rejected them as mere teenager-see if you can draw any conclusion from this).

Reply:- Brother What I heard so far from you regarding the ahadith and then how you are looking at them.This is the basis of my comments regarding the knowledge of ahadith you are having.


Quote:-My friend am I right to assume that you are being honest bove.

Reply: -Yes you are right. Having said that I will try to put some light on that, what I have the knowledge of Quran and ahadith is mainly based on my personnel study and now I used to sit and listen to those people who have seen the whole picture. But I never acquire any acamadic qualification.

Quote: -The story was to illustrate that the man had established that the woman was of low moral character who would sell her body for money, price was not an issue of morality.
Reply: -As far as the ahadith are concern this story irrevelent. You know why because the intention of the person was not to sleep with her rather he only want to established that the woman is having a low moral character. If he wish to sleep with her, he always can merry with her.

This is the case with you as well, you don’t want to follow ahadith rather want to find faults into them. This person was atleast managed to establish the low moral character of woman. You not yet able to established that ahadith should not be used as source of Deen.

Quote:-Contradiction=lie. Therefore the fact that some hadith may contain truths or words of wisdom do not take away that they contains lies (the amount and degree is irrelevent).

Reply: -Brother the ahadith we have today are not contradictory as you think they are, no you are very very wrong here. But for sack of arguments if I assumed that what you are saying is correct. Believe me we no other choice to dig out those ahadith which are contradictory and take a note of our self and highlight it to others (An average person will do that if he has read the Quran). The rest which are OK we must take guidance from them and try to follow them to the best of our abilities.

You and me have no ability to do that this job, this job is already done by earlier scholars 1000 years ago. God will question us according to our abilities what He gave to us.

Quote:-Your logic on this has been that I cannot make a negative comment regarding hadith as I dont fully know them.

Therefore my friend you will agree that by same logic you will accept that I cannot defend something truthfully if I dont know it well or fully- yes agreed.

Reply: -Yours comments on first paragraph is correct. Here I am especially commenting on 2nd paragraph .By the logic you are right. Brother its not means that the ahadith are wrong, actually your understanding is not correct. It’s already established through the Quran as well.I have quoted the few verses in my earlier post. If I assume that we both are having the equal knowledge of Quran and Ahadith but you know what is the difference between you and me? The difference is that the people who are scholars of this field are on the same point of view as I am having regarding the ahadith. This gives me lots of confidence. This is some thing you must ponder on. Even the Quran itself is supporting my point of view on ahadith.

You are not directly commenting on the verses of Quran and my explanation on them. Here I am re-posting few of them for yours comments before we go any further. We both are agree on Quran and we have a common ground where we can stand together. I want to find out that whose interpreting of Quran is correct.

Quote: -After all this we finally begin to get to the point. You now accept that some hadith (exact number is irrelevent) are wrong and yet still insist that hadith should be the source for deen (we obviousouly have different idea os deen-I believe in deen which I believe is 100% truthful)

Reply: -There is no question about the sayings and actions of Prophet (pbuh) are 100% truthful from its origon. The earlier scholars already classified the status of all ahadith, which we found today. If you don’t trust the scholars than there only one choice left for you to study all the ahadith by your self and then comments. As I said and your self also said the similar thing that without seeing the whole picture don’t comment on it negatively.

Allah wants us to follow and obey the prophet (pbuh). Allah is fully aware about the status of ahadith in our time. If the status of ahadith what we have found today is in that bad shape (Nauzobillah) that this could not be followed any longer then surely He never declare in Quran that Muhammad (pbuh) is the last Prophet and rather He should send more Prophets to rectify the Ahadith.He is All Wise All Mighty.
.
Say: Obey Allâh and the Messenger, but if they turn their backs, Allâh loves not the disbelievers. (3:32)

Obeying Allah is obeying Quran, The (and) between Allah and Messenger is clearly showing that here Allah is not referring to Quran, this must be some thing else. Tell me what is this some other than Quran which one should follow beside the Quran? How serious the issue is that if you turn backs then you could be a disbeliever. How can people slept over it?

Don’t to forget that only few Prophets are given the books of Allah.Most of the Prophets (Peace be upon them all) were came with out any book of Allah.People used to follow them without Allah book even after His death.

The other verses of Quran, which I have quoted in my earlier post, are also have more or less same messages. Please read them again, and after reading them again we will found that, how important is for us to follow the commandments of Prophet (pbuh) [which Prophet (pbuh) gave in 23 years of His Prophetic life].

Allah Hafiz
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Saturday, September 02, 2006  -  8:35 AM Reply with quote
perv1
what do you say about the below :

Addressing His messenger, Allah says in the Qur’an : “To you we have revealed this Reminder, so that you may make clear to mankind what has been sent down to them, and that they may give thought”.

The word, “Reminder”, refers here to the Qur’an. You note that the function of explanation and clarification, which the Prophet had to do, is set clearly in the Qur’anic verse. It cannot, then, be accepted from anyone to say that he is in no need of this explanation and clarification by the Prophet and that he will deal with the Qur’an himself.
plz reply in brief (as this is a place of discussion but people used it for delivering marathon speeches.)
wassalam
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Sunday, September 03, 2006  -  9:35 PM Reply with quote
Salaam Usamni790

My friend you are becoming very confused. Hadith are either contradictory or they are not make up your mind.

Please if you are not capable of understanding a point do not start referring to so called scholars (often refuge for those who either have very little knowledge or poor understanding). Having said this I will contradict myself (you will see it is justified). Probably one of the biggest (certainly very famous) accepted Muslim scholar was Sir Syed (founder of Aligarh University). He like you deeply believed in Hadith until he started to study them to answer non-muslim critics who quoted hadiths to justify what a ridiculous religion Islam was. When Sir Syed started studying hadiths he soon realized what a contradiction and unislamic they were. If you wish to learn more I suggest you look at Sir Syeds work more closely.
Anyhow which scholars are you going to believe, Shias, sunnis, Whabi etc (Although I have a feeling it will the sect that you were brought up as).

I think try to use your own Aqil as the Quran has suggested and you might also discover that the prophet was warned that the majority of his people will reject the Quran (because you seem to believe that majority must be right).

Anyway you appear to not notice the references I posted to you. I will make it very simple for you.
I could not paste the Arabic words but I am sure you can read the simple word hadith in Arabic


Here are the references I gave you:
(sorry I could not type the arabic)

45:6
These are Allahs revelations that we recite to you truthfully, In which hadith other than Allah and his revelations do they believe in.


7:185
Do they see nothing in the government of the heavens and the earth and all that Allah hath created? (Do they not see) that it may well be that their terms is nigh drawing to an end? In what hadith after this will they then believe?


See if you can the word hadith. You can give the word whatever meaning you like (as you probably don’t trust that God meant hadith to be hadith) and explain how you can continue to believe in hadith despite these two verses. If they are not enough I will post you many others.


Salaam Raushan

I have no idea how you used the word reflection to justify the that we should believe in hadith. I am afraid you are typical of hadithly prejudiced type who will use completely irrational reason to justify that somehow Quran supports the hadith. When if you bother to sudy the Quran the opposite s te case. The reference you gave has NO relation to any support for hadith.
However you did not answer my simple question (also raised by sksamsher) that if you believe in hadiths why do you reject the Muslim hadith which makes all the hadiths unislamic. LET ME WRITE MORE CLERLY IN CASE YOU MISSED IT BEFORE THE PROPHET FORBADE ANYONE TO WRITE FROM HIM ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE QURAN. THEN WHY ARE YOU DISOBEYING THE GODS MESSANGER?


Salaam Sk

My friend it is like banging your head against a brick wall, when you have such logic that 2+2 =5 is not wrong because you have not grasped the whole picture.

regards
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, September 04, 2006  -  7:42 AM Reply with quote
Walaykum Salam prev1

Do they not consider the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and whatever things Allah has created, and that may be their doom shall have drawn nigh; what announcement(hadih) would they then believe in after this? (7-185)

These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what announcement(hadith) would they believe after Allah and His communications (45-6)

Both of the verses are having the word hadith.If you will read the both verses in its full context(from the few earlier verses) you will find that Allah is speaking to disbelievers here.Quran's verses are good enough to believe in one God and his Messenger(pbuh).What Allah saying here if these verses of Quran are not working for them to accept the faith then what else will work for them.There no way the word hadith here referring to the ahadith of prophet(pbuh).

When some one not yet have the faith there is no point,no logic and no need to to talk to them regarding the ahadith of prophet(pbuh).So your understanding that these verses are some how referring to the ahadith of prophet(pbuh) is not correct.

Following the Allah commandments and His Prophet(pbuh) commandments are for second stage when the person already declared that (There no gods but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.).Now he need to know that how a believer should live his life.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Monday, September 04, 2006  -  1:36 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Text
Salaam Usmani

quote:

Do they not consider the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and whatever things Allah has created, and that may be their doom shall have drawn nigh; what announcement(hadih) would they then believe in after this? (7-185)



quote:

These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what announcement(hadith) would they believe after Allah and His communications
(45-6)

quote:

Both of the verses are having the word hadith.If you will read the both verses in its full context(from the few earlier verses) you will find that Allah is speaking to disbelievers here.Quran's verses are good enough to believe in one God and his Messenger(pbuh).What Allah saying here if these verses of Quran are not working for them to accept the faith then what else will work for them.There no way the word hadith here referring to the ahadith of prophet(pbuh).


Quite amazing really. God cannot be any more explicit than this but you hadith believers insist that it does not apply to your corruption of Islam by man made hadith. If it does not apply to Bukharis verson of prophets hadith who does it apply to?

Even considering your brand of the translation. The translation states that what announcement(HADITh) after the Quran are people going to believe in. Yet you guys cannot even understand this basic statement that: God forbids you to believe in saying other than the Quran.


quote:

When some one not yet have the faith there is no point,no logic and no need to to talk to them regarding the ahadith of prophet(pbuh).So your understanding that these verses are some how referring to the ahadith of prophet(pbuh) is not correct.


You have faith based on prejudices. You do not look at Islam with an open mind. What your idea of faith means is that: YOU REACH CONCLUSION FIRST THEN STUDY THE FACTS BUT YOU WILL NOT ACCEPT THE FACTS AS THEY ARE BUT TWIST THEM TO TRY TO FIT IN WITH YOUR PRE-JUDGED CONCLUSION NO MATTER HOW MUCH THE FACTS GO AGAINST YOUR CONCLUSION.


quote:

Following the Allah commandments and His Prophet(pbuh) commandments are for second stage when the person already declared that (There no gods but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.).Now he need to know that how a believer should live his life.

???????

Oh! by the way you still have not answerd my question as to which hadith or scholars you believe is it Sunni, Shia, Whabi or another. A straight honest answer will be appreciated.

regards
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Monday, September 04, 2006  -  8:23 PM Reply with quote
Salaam all

quote:

In 75:19 God commands the messenger to recite the Qur’an as it is given to him and that it is God who will explain it and in 5:92,99, 42:48, 13:40… we are told that the only duty of the messenger is to deliver/convey the message.


Does anyone disagree with the above statement. If so why?(please give Quranic references)

regards
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, September 05, 2006  -  4:42 AM Reply with quote
After listening the reply of brother perv1,the Earth has moved under my foots so quickly.Oh my God, how can be some one wrongly understood the verses to that extend which have no basis there and he is not realizing it.

Its truly Your self Who made us understand Yours words.We have no intellect to do so.

Edited by: usmani790 on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 7:54 AM
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, September 05, 2006  -  5:11 AM Reply with quote
Walaykum Salam perv1
Quote:-Oh! by the way you still have not answerd my question as to which hadith or scholars you believe is it Sunni, Shia, Whabi or another. A straight honest answer will be appreciated.

So ask the people of remembrance, if you do not know (16:43)

You must think that, can this answer would be acceptable for Allah in the day of jugdment?

These people must be around since Allah ask us to ask them.We only can find them if this would be our priority and we are sincere and there is a true desire in our hearts to follow the deen.

And if some one says all those to whom I met are them self are not correct then there is some wrong with him self only.
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Tuesday, September 05, 2006  -  8:03 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Salaam all

quote:

In 75:19 God commands the messenger to recite the Qur’an as it is given to him and that it is God who will explain it and in 5:92,99, 42:48, 13:40… we are told that the only duty of the messenger is to deliver/convey the message.


Does anyone disagree with the above statement. If so why?(please give Quranic references)

regards


016.044
YUSUFALI: (We sent them) with Clear Signs and Books of dark prophecies; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.
075.019
YUSUFALI: Nay more, it is for Us to explain it (and make it clear):
005.092
YUSUFALI: Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and beware (of evil): if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Messenger's duty to proclaim (the message) in the clearest manner.


yes we believe in all of the above.
Zulfee

USA
Posted - Tuesday, September 05, 2006  -  4:03 PM Reply with quote
quote:

A. Your friend is not the first to make such arguments, nor will he be the last. Over the years, many people have tried to belittle the importance of Hadith and Sunnah. They always argue that since the Qur’an is the word of Allah, which has been guaranteed to be preserved intact, then it is all that is needed by any person to lead an Islamic life. I am afraid that this is only one aspect of how Satan sometimes succeeds in misleading people away from the right Islamic path. I often wonder how these people can continue to claim to be Muslims, when they should realise that their argument defies the very basic requirement of faith. Everyone knows that to be a Muslim, one needs first of all to declare his belief that “there is no deity save Allah, and that Muhammad is his Messenger.” The fact that this is the main first essential of faith means that we have to have a very clear concept of Allah and we have to know the role of the messenger.


What a nonsense, un-islamic and non-Quranic answer is!!!!
raushan from UK, REMEMBER, Quran doesn’t support this whim of yours!!!!
So, if Quran doesn’t support then your every thought is like an idol worshiper or a MUSHRIK!!!!
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Wednesday, September 06, 2006  -  7:19 AM Reply with quote
thanks brother zulfee for this advice.
wassalam

Allah hafiz
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, September 06, 2006  -  1:05 PM Reply with quote
Salam dear perv1

Quote:- My friend it is like banging your head against a brick wall, when you have such logic that 2+2 =5 is not wrong because you have not grasped the whole picture.

REPLY:- Did you tell this about me? If yes, then could you clarify your opinion?

peace,
Samsher
nonstoptaxi

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, September 06, 2006  -  2:55 PM Reply with quote
Who are Submitters

The Submitters are followers of the late Rashad Khalifa, a man who claimed to be a Messenger of Allah. This claim in itself is sufficient to remove the Submitters from Islam as the Qur'an states (translation):

"O people! Muhammad has no sons among ye men, but verily, he is the Messenger of Allah and the last in the line of Prophets. And Allah is aware of everything." (33:40)

The true Prophet of Islam, Muhammad, observed:

"The tribe of Israel was guided by prophets. When a prophet passed away, another succeeded him. But no prophet will come after me; only caliphs will succeed me." (Sahih Bukhari)

Much of Rashad Khalifa's misguidance can be traced to his obsession with numerology, an obsession which has misguided many different people throughout history. Khalifa alleged that the Qur'an contained a mathematical code which revolved around the number 19. He went to the extent of removing two verses from the Qur'an because according to him "the word `God' ...is not a multiple of 19, unless we remove [it]", and the "sum of all verse numbers where the word `God' occurs is ... 19x6217 ... If the false verse 9:129 is included, this phenomenon disappears." By rejecting a single verse of the Qur'an, the Submitters bring themselves under the judgement of another verse,

... Do you believe in part of the Book and disbelieve in another part? And what is the reward of those who do so save ignominy in the life of the world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom ... (2:85)

It is interesting to note that Khalifa was a numerologist who did his blighted profession justice: he predicted the end of the world. However, Allah says in the Qur'an

They ask you about the (last) hour, when will be its taking place? Say: The knowledge of it is only with my Lord; none but He shall manifest it at its time; it will be momentous in the heavens and the earth; it will not come on you but of a sudden. They ask you as if you were solicitous about it. Say: Its knowledge is only with Allah, but most people do not know. (7:187)

The Submitters also reject the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (saws)- not part of it, but the whole of it. For the Submitters, the Sunnah is not a source of Islam. The problems this presents are overwhelming, for by doing so the Submitters have effectively destroyed their ability to perform:

Salaat (obligatory prayers), the second pillar of Islam

Zakat (obligatory tax), the third pillar of Islam

Sawm (fasting), the fourth pillar of Islam

Hajj (pilgrimage), the fifth pillar of Islam

With four out of the five pillars of Islam removed, the Submitters have little to back their claim to being "Muslim". The true Messenger of Islam (saws) warned Muslims of falling into this trap,

Narrated AbuRafi': The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "Let me not find one of you reclining on his couch when he hears something regarding me which I have commanded or forbidden [i.e. from the Sunnah -ed.] and saying: 'We do not know. What we found in Allah's Book [i.e. the Qur'an] we have followed.'" Book 40, Number 4588 of Sunan Abu-Dawud

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