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maskxone

PAKISTAN
Posted - Sunday, April 02, 2006  -  5:50 PM Reply with quote
I think the verses of Quran apply equally on both of us. You think the four imams were liars and I think Rashad Khalifa is the liar.

Edited by: ibrahim on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 7:54 AM
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Monday, April 03, 2006  -  9:59 AM Reply with quote
Salam,

Quote:- If someone says 2+2 = 5, it should be a new thing or a “Miracle of Mathematics” for those who do not know to count even upto 5 but they claim to do upto 100 or above. Isn’t it?

Response:- No brother at first you made a mistake because of your wishful thinking. It should be ‘if someone proves…, not says’. There is huge difference between the meaning of the words ‘says’ & ‘proves’. You even don’t know the difference between these two simple English words yet you are going to disprove the ‘Mathematical Miracle of the Qur’an’!!! Do you remember once upon a time I told you or someone like you that “ YOU EVEN DON’T KNOW HOW TO DRIVE A TWO WHEELER YET YOU ARE GOING TO DRIVE A LUXURY BUSS”!!!

This was the right analysis for you type of people. Now come to the point. Do you not read the following verses of the Qur’an?

[74:31] We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and WE ASSIGNED THEIR NUMBER (19) (1) TO DISTURB THE DISBELIEVERS, (2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture), (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and (5) TO EXPOSE THOSE WHO HARBOR DOUBT IN THEIR HEARTS, AND THE DISBELIEVERS; THEY WILL SAY, "WHAT DID GOD MEAN BY THIS ALLEGORY?" GOD THUS SENDS ASTRAY WHOMEVER HE WILLS, AND GUIDES WHOMEVER HE WILLS. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.

[74:32 -37] Absolutely, (I swear) by the moon. And the night as it passes. And the morning as it shines. THIS IS ONE OF THE GREAT MIRACLES. A warning to the human race. For those among you who wish to advance, or regress.

You disturbed by the number 19( THIS IS ONE OF THE GREAT MIRACLES), because according to the above verses you are DISBELIEVER( I don’t say but the verses above).


QUOTE: - I will do tell you but please ANSWER MY QUESTION FIRST (if you are not UNANSWERABLE), which you have copied the same.


My Response:- This is not the right approach brother to defend your illogical idea. If you asked for any or some proof of anything regarding any subject from any one, then you should also keep ready to answer the similar question if raise by the opponent side, there should be no rule for who asked first and who asked second. But the trickster always try to invent this rule.

Whatever may be, I have already given my reply to you in this regard. If you don’t like to accept them, you have the right to reject them.


Quote:- not only Mr. Richard Voss but all the statements of even Newton, Archimedes, Einstein and all the others are USELESS if they do not FULFILL THE CRITERIA. You can ask any concerned person.


Response:- Then what should be the CRITERION? What is your CRITERION brother regarding ISLAM? Is it that what Mr Bukhary, Mr. Muslim…………or Newton, Archimedes, Einstein & Richard Voss said?


My Criterion is Only Qur’an, and Qur’an says that ‘This is (number19) one of the great miracles’. But as your criterion is conjecture, ie. Hadith, sunnah(falsely attributed to Muhammad), so you always make doubt about this miracle and you people always try to say that this is ‘R.K. made……..” (74:24-25).

Secondly, I told again & again that I am not here to prove R.K.’s messengership. I strictly believe that Qur’an is the ONLY RELIGIOUS SOURCE OF ISLAM, no hadith, no suhhan (falsely attributed on Muhammad), no twatur….etc. Qur’an should only be the CRITERION for us and to prove this I am here. If any think otherwise , then he may think. This is his right.

[10:108] Proclaim: "O people, the truth has come to you herein from your Lord. Whoever is guided is guided for his own good. And whoever goes astray, goes astray to his own detriment. I am not a guardian over you."

[18:56] We only send the messengers as simply deliverers of good news, as well as warners. THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE ARGUE WITH FALSEHOOD TO DEFEAT THE TRUTH, AND THEY TAKE MY PROOFS AND WARNINGS IN VAIN.

[18:57] WHO ARE MORE EVIL THAN THOSE WHO ARE REMINDED OF THEIR LORD'S PROOFS, THEN DISREGARD THEM, WITHOUT REALIZING WHAT THEY ARE DOING. Consequently, we place shields on their hearts to prevent them from understanding it (the Quran), and deafness in their ears. Thus, no matter what you do to guide them, they can never ever be guided.


Peace
Samsher.

Edited by: ibrahim on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 8:02 AM
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Monday, April 03, 2006  -  10:07 AM Reply with quote
Salam, brother,

Quote:- Brother then according to my believe Rashad Khalifa has fabricated a huge lie that he is the messanger and I firmly believe that Prophet Muhammad was the last Rasul and will remain so.

My Response:- Yes you believe but this is your whims because Qur’an does not support your believe. Nowhere in the Qur’an it is said that Muhammad was the last messenger.

[33:40] Muhammad was not the father of any man among you. HE WAS A MESSENGER OF GOD and THE FINAL PROPHET. GOD is fully aware of all things.

[3:81] GOD TOOK A COVENANT FROM THE PROPHETS, SAYING, "I WILL GIVE YOU THE SCRIPTURE AND WISDOM. AFTERWARDS, A MESSENGER WILL COME TO CONFIRM ALL EXISTING SCRIPTURES. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you."


So, those who believe that Muhammad was the last messenger are EVIL ONES.

[3:82] Those who reject this (Quranic prophecy) are the evil ones.

Peace
Samsher.

Edited by: ibrahim on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 8:06 AM
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Monday, April 03, 2006  -  10:15 AM Reply with quote
Salam,

Quote:-I think the verses of Quran apply equally on both of us. You think the four imams were liars and I think Rashad Khalifa is the liar.

My Response:- R.K.preached Qur'an only. He always told his followers to follow Only the Qur'an as religious source of Islam and nothing else.Qur'an also says so.

So the position of R.K. and your four imams is not the same according to the Qur'an.

Peace
Samsher
Loveall

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, April 07, 2006  -  6:30 PM Reply with quote
Salam,

QUOTE: - It should be ‘if someone proves…, not says’. There is huge difference between the meaning of the words ‘says’ & ‘proves’.

I called it after your gossip because you have said only not proved in DOCUMENTATION.

QUOTE: - You are going to disprove the ‘Mathematical Miracle of the Qur’an’!!!

Yes of course, I am going to disprove it because YOU HAVE FAILED to prove it by providing its DOCUMENTED PROOF rather you are beating about the bushes by using the tricks of FLIGHT OF IDEAS.

QUOTE: - YOU EVEN DON’T KNOW HOW TO DRIVE A TWO WHEELER YET YOU ARE GOING TO DRIVE A LUXURY BUSS”!!!

I want to know the details of the luxury bus, which the people like you are pushing that from the behind NOT driving. I am astonished to see such a LUXURY bus. I think the followers (of the bus) are now ready to lift it on their heads.

QUOTE: - You disturbed by the number 19 (THIS IS ONE OF THE GREAT MIRACLES), because according to the above verses you are DISBELIEVER (I don’t say but the verses above).

After doing the WRONG INTERPRETATIONS, “Why do you take the support of Quranic verses to label others disbelievers?” Are you 100 percent sure that you are not a disbelievers? Or do you know exactly what God says?

Do not forget, there are several verses, which label you not only disbelievers but MUCH MORE…….

QUOTE: - [74:32 -37] Absolutely, (I swear) by the moon. And the night as it passes. And the morning as it shines. THIS IS ONE OF THE GREAT MIRACLES. A warning to the human race. For those among you who wish to advance, or regress

Therefore I have asked you to prove (see below) it not to make the CONJECTURE. Your interpretation is like, for example, that of a person named Jacob who considers every Jacob in Quran his own name. What is this phenomenon called?

QUOTE: - Then what should be the CRITERION?

The criterion is about Code 19 only i.e. its DOCUMENTED PROOF from the book of Modern Mathematics with Title of the book/Journal, Volume/Edition, Name of the Author, Title of the chapter, Page Number, Year Number and from where punished etc.

I try to make you understand by giving the following examples.

I. The Arabic or Urdu word, Kitab means book. Suppose someone asks you, how you say that Kitab means book. What will you do? Obviously you will have to give the reference of some AUTHENTICATED dictionary with name of the author, page, No etc. This will be the documented proof of meaning of Kitab. Do not forget, author of the dictionary is NOT ALL IN ALL. He must also keep himself protected against all the enquiry i.e. he must have preserved all the sources from where he prepared the dictionary.

II. Giving another example I would like to say, “Can a QUALIFIED DOCTOR prescribe any medicine which has no support of any medical literature?” Mind it, uptill now the status of the CODE you presented is same as that medicine which has NO SUPPORT of any medical literature and even a qualified doctor has NO POWER at all to prescribe it. But if the medical literature supports that medicine then it (the literature) must have preserved all its sources of botany or whatever it is, Physiology of various systems of the body where it acts (beneficially or adversely) and principles and formulae of Mathematics regarding calculations of its doses etc otherwise it is UNACCEPTABLE.

By the above examples, I think that my point of view must be clear now if you know the rules and regulation of any research work in general otherwise don’t please beat about the bushes or don’t talk in the illiterate way.

Frankly speaking, if you have presented this code, which is the BASE of all the jugglery exhibited, YOU HAVE FAILED TO PROVE IT WITH THE DOCUMENTED PROOF.

QUOTE: - But the trickster always try to invent this rule.

By the way, have you initiated to copy my question or I did that and who is the trickster and invented this rule to escape answering the question, answer of which you have NOT absolutely? Answer honestly i.e. who initiated to copy……...

Do you know your all the posts base on the TRICKS ONLY NOTHING ELSE? According to you “atee-u-allah and atee-ur-rasool” both have the same meanings i.e. obey only God. So why did God say “atee-ur-rasool” (Obey the messenger) as well. Wouldn’t it be sufficient if it were only “atee-u-allah? So why did God say subsequently “atee-ur-rasool” with AND between the two. Is there any importance of AND in any language? Have the people (the tricksters) like you not invented this FALSE rule to take only one meaning of two savings (atee-u-allah wa atee-ur-rasool) of God.

QUOTE: - My Criterion is Only Qur’an, and Qur’an says that ‘This is (number19) one of the great miracles’.

Your criterion is only DELIBERATE WRONG INTERPRETATION of Holy Quran NOTHING ELSE. Are you ready to present yourself to the experts of the Language? How do you say, “This is (number19) one of the great miracles” while there is NO DOCUMENTED PROOF.
maskxone

PAKISTAN
Posted - Sunday, April 09, 2006  -  2:23 PM Reply with quote
Assalam Alaykum,
Brother Samsher or for that matter anyone who believes that Rashad Khalifa is a messenger and Code 19 theory is true:

For the sake of argument lets say that I agree with you that we have to follow Quran only. Remember this is for the sake of argument cause there is a chance that later on you tell me that I agreed that we should follow Quran only).

Please answer the following three questions:
1) Do you follow Quran Only as a source of religion?
2) How do I know that Rashad Khalifa is messenger? Because the arabic Quran I have does not say so.
3) How do I know about Code 19 miracle by following Quran only as there is no mention of it in Quran. Code-19 miracle says that the verses of Quran are divisible by 19 but there are 6348 verses and this is not divisible by 19. (Surah 9 has 129 verses).

I have asked 3 simple questions and I expect clear and to the point answers. If you can give convincing answers to all three I will not question your concepts again on this forum otherwise admit that Code-19 Miracle is a big lie.

Best Regards
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Monday, April 17, 2006  -  11:52 AM Reply with quote
Salam Maskxone,

Quote:- For the sake of argument lets say that I agree with you that we have to follow Quran only. Remember this is for the sake of argument ..

My Response:- That means for the sake of argument you accept this but not actually you follow the Qur’an only as your religious source, whereas Almighty Allah commands that we should follow only Qur’an as religious source.

6:114 “Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt”.

18:27 “You shall recite what is revealed to you of your Lord's scripture. Nothing shall abrogate His words, and you shall not find any other source besideIT”.


Quote:- Please answer the following three questions:
1) Do you follow Quran Only as a source of religion?
2) How do I know that Rashad Khalifa is messenger? Because the arabic Quran I have does not say so.
3) How do I know about Code 19 miracle by following Quran only as there is no mention of it in Quran. Code-19 miracle says that the verses of Quran are divisible by 19 but there are 6348 verses and this is not divisible by 19. (Surah 9 has 129 verses).

I have asked 3 simple questions and I expect clear and to the point answers. If you can give convincing answers to all three I will not question your concepts again on this forum otherwise admit that Code-19 Miracle is a big lie.

My Response:- Listen brother, WHETHER YOU ACCEPT Mathematical Miracle of the Qur’an OR NOT is not any big matter here also I am not here to convince you this!! It is your choice. Contemporary Jews of Muhammad’s time also did not believe that Muhammad was the messenger of God and Qur’an is the word of God. So what? What was the merit of their thinking?

Before this I have already answered to the same type of questions several times. I astonish why the same question is asked again & again? Whatever may be for the sake of argument I am once again, for the last time, answering your questions;

1. Yes I follow only Qur’an as my religious source of Islam.
2. What? Wasn't Rashad assassinated by Sunni terrorists? Was Rashad reincarnated somewhere? How can a dead person be a messenger? I hope you do not ask me the same questions over and over again. You asked me the same question in another forum and I answered you fully.

3:81 speaks of a messenger who will come after ALL the prophets and ALL the scriptures have come and the duty of this particular messenger will be to confirm the scripture, or in other words to confirm that the Quran is from God.

Rashad Khalifa fulfilled that role when he confirmed that the Qur’an is from God and that is through the discovery of the Mathematical Miracle of Qur’an. Only this miracle proved scientifically and absolutely that the Qur’an could not have been written by any human being.

The name of Rsahad Khalifa is coded in the Qur’an and there are hundreds of mathematical proofs of his messengership.

3. Code-19 or Mathematical Miracle of the Qur’an is remained within the Qur’an. This had discovered only by R.K., ne of the messengers. 19 is the common denominator of the Mathematical Miracle of the Qur’an. A,mighty Allah says in His Qur’an that He reveals the contents of the scripture according to His infinite wisdom. Some matters are kept hidden for an appointed time that God has ordained. God reveals some of these matters through messengers that he chooses.

72:26 “He is the Knower of the future; He does not reveal the future to anyone”.

72:27 “Only to a messenger that He chooses, does He reveal from the past and the future, specific news”.

72:28 “This is to ascertain that they have delivered their Lord's messages. He is fully aware of what they have. He has counted the numbers of all things”.

Your count of quranic verses is wrong. The Qur’an has 6346 verses(6234 numbered & 112 unnumbered i.e. Basmalahs). The Basmalah appear 114 times in the Qur’an, but 2 of these 114 basmalahs are numbered verses. The first one is the first ayat in sura al-Fatihah, the second numbered basmalah is 27:30.

Now it is your choice whether you accept all these info. or not.

[3:82] Those who reject this (Quranic prophecy) are the evil ones.

Peace
Samsher.
Loveall

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, April 22, 2006  -  6:06 PM Reply with quote
Regarding the DOCUMENTED PROOF if you couldn’t understand even my point of view, “How do you understand exactly the language of God?”

Wassalaam!
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Monday, April 24, 2006  -  1:21 PM Reply with quote
Salam,

Quote:- Regarding the DOCUMENTED PROOF if you couldn’t understand even my point of view, “How do you understand exactly the language of God?”

My Response:- What is the language of God?

Peace
Bye……
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Friday, April 28, 2006  -  9:52 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Regarding the DOCUMENTED PROOF if you couldn’t understand even my point of view, “How do you understand exactly the language of God?”

Salam,

It was not your documented proof rather it was your documented whims.

peace
Samsher
Mikai

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, April 29, 2006  -  7:25 PM Reply with quote
asa skshamsherali

Are there any websites or books you can recommend me that back up your views as i would like to look up on this more. I follow the Qur'an and Hadith but i am an open minded person and feel it is important to learn about other areas of Islam especially when i havent looked it up myself properly and made a decision on whether it should be followed or not. I know there is alot presented here from both sides but it is quite alot to take in.

Sorry as i know my post is not directly about the topic at hand.
Loveall

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, May 03, 2006  -  6:53 PM Reply with quote
QUOTE: I again say that this is not the right approach brother to defend YOUR ILLOGICAL IDEA.


If you are UNANSWERABLE then do not please say like this!



QUOTE: What is the language of God?



I meant Arabic (language of Quran). By the way, can you understand fully every writing of Urdu even if your mother tongue?


Wassalam!
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Friday, May 05, 2006  -  12:46 PM Reply with quote
Dear Mikai,

Please go and see www.quran-islam.org ;
www.19.org ; www.submission.org ; www.islamicreform.org ; www.yuksel.org; www.progressivemuslims.org ; www.free-minds.org

Peace
Samsher

quote:

asa skshamsherali

Are there any websites or books you can recommend me that back up your views as i would like to look up on this more. I follow the Qur'an and Hadith but i am an open minded person and feel it is important to learn about other areas of Islam especially when i havent looked it up myself properly and made a decision on whether it should be followed or not. I know there is alot presented here from both sides but it is quite alot to take in.

Sorry as i know my post is not directly about the topic at hand.
Mikai

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Sunday, May 14, 2006  -  11:33 AM Reply with quote
asa samsher

thankyou for the links, inshallah i will look them up.

From reading as many posts as I possibly can in this thread, you obviously have shown that you have done alot of research and study! So i completely respect in what you believe as well as respecting the others who oppose your beliefs. Your explanations are presented well, not that I'm siding with anyone, cause i have alot of research to do of my own.

Opologies as what i put beleow is not directly concerned with the topic but is still connected.
---------------------------------
I mainly wanted to point out that as long as everyone here are striving to follow what they believe is the right way to Allah Swt, then isn't that what counts? Regardless of our differences we are all still doing the main things required of us in Islam and that is 1) Belief in one God 2)Gain in knowledge and understandng 3) Use this knowledge to strive to worship Allah SWT.

So we all have different forms of knowledge and understanding but they lead to the same goal, worshipping Allah SWT. So i dont regard anyone as being on the wrong pathway (kafir) as long as they are doing the best they can to use the knowledge they gained correctly, with heart, and continuouly learn more with an open mind throughout their lives.

Well thats what I think.
Rakhtal

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, May 20, 2006  -  1:46 AM Reply with quote
Salam-o-alaikom

After reading whole the forums, I found you correct to some extent, dear brother samshir.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Monday, May 22, 2006  -  8:00 AM Reply with quote
Salam brother,

Thanky you for your comment.

If you have any query regarding Islam, please try to reach this to me through this forum. I shall InShAllah try to the best of my knowledge to reply your queries.

Peace
Samsher.

Edited by: ibrahim on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 11:03 AM

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