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perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, August 16, 2006  -  7:32 PM Reply with quote
quote:

That certainly your own self.


Let me see if you are even able to understand even the very basic of human logic that is used for communication purposes.

If one person says the prophet only ever washed once and another says actually it was twice. By any cultural, logical or intelligence measure one of tese statements must be wrong. If you are struggling to grasp such simple logical concepts then I can only assume that your age is in single digits and you are admirably trying to understand Islam at a very tender age.
regards
Quote:-Any guesses how we solve this dilema?

: So ask the people of remembrance, if you do not know (16:43)

Actually our priority is not to the deen but this world.We used to spend years to learn worldly knowledge to have a better life here.But to learn the knowledge of deen we have no time.If we see some ahadith in the isolation so these questions can be arises in the mind unless untill we are aware of the hole picture.

I hope that people will take it positively.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, August 16, 2006  -  10:51 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Quote:-Any guesses how we solve this dilema?

reply

quote:

: So ask the people of remembrance, if you do not know (16:43)



I am sure it makes sense to you!


quote:

Actually our priority is not to the deen but this world.We used to spend years to learn worldly knowledge to have a better life here. But to learn the knowledge of deen we have no time.If we see some ahadith in the isolation so these questions can be arises in the mind unless untill we are aware of the hole picture.


You may not have time for deen-that may be your problem but do not make assumption about others.
Perhaps on this simple issue you who claim to understand the deen so well will explain to us (those who have not grasped the whole picture) what these contradictory statements mean.


quote:

I hope that people will take it positively
.

Take what positively?

Regards
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, August 17, 2006  -  7:34 AM Reply with quote
Brother perv1
Quote: -Perhaps on this simple issue you who claim to understand the deen so well will explain to us (those who have not grasped the whole picture) what these contradictory statements mean.

Reply: -Sir I never claim that I understand the deen so well infect I only know a little about the deen.Any way I will try to explain to you through a short story here.

Once a group blinds, which consists of four persons, went to visit Zoo. There was a guide with them who was telling them about the different animals which they were passing through. Once they reached near the elephant they (blind people) ask the guide that they wish to touch the elephant and feel that how this animal looks like. The guide brought them one by one near the elephant. The first blind touches his leg, the second one managed to touch tail, the third blind touches his tummy and the last one touches his head.

Once they come back from the Zoo so they share the experience with each other that how a elephant is looks like.The first one said the elephant is like a long round wood, the second one said no you are wrong the elephant is like thin wood, the third one said no you both are wrong he is like big round ball, and the forth one said you all are wrong the elephant is not round but some other shape and there is tail in it.

These are those people who have not grasped the whole picture of elephnet. So without the proper studying the ahadith one can not have whole picture. Further more Shatan is always there to mislead and misguide us by creating doubts in our minds.

So brother ahadith is a vast subject. I know here in Pakistan people who went to Darul uloome, they have to study straight eight years to achieve the knowledge to Quran, Ahadith and fiqa(Drss-e-Nizami). After achieving this and if the person remain in this field so he used to always keep in though with Quran and Ahadith and he always keep in touch with others seniors and spend quite a good time of his life in this field. This person only considered a reliable fellow who understood the Quran and Ahadith and can say that he has seen the whole picture.


Allah Hafiz
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, August 17, 2006  -  11:57 AM Reply with quote
Salaam usmani 790

My friend we dont know each other so it is very difficult to know others prespective (which necessarily is not a bad thing-as it means it is important to discuss issues on their merit).
Having said the above. If you have fixed ideas about your beliefs because of you cultural and social influences and are merely discussing to prove your prejudices right, then this is no longer a discussion but simply an arguement and then there is no point in us proceeding any further.
If however you are prepared to go forward with an open mind and heart then we can continue with this discussion.

quote:

Further more Shatan is always there to mislead and misguide us by creating doubts in our minds.


This is very true. The biggest influence shatan has is by introducing corruption into the word of God-what a better way than to introduce innovations 300 years after God had revealed the Quran(& if you are muslim then it s Gods own word)

One of the most important point n the Quran is. GOD HAS GIVEN YOU HEARING, SIGHT & INTELLIGENCE DO NOT ACCEPT ANYTHING YOU CANNOT VERIFY YOURSELF.
Please read this and contemplate a little while as to why God may state this to us humans.

You do not have to be a scholar of anything to understand some very basic facts in anything in life e.g. maths, politics, science etc.

Very basic knoeldge in maths will tell you 2+2=4 and if a so called expert tells me it is 6 then i have right to disagree. Just as I know that on 16.08.06 the president of Pakistan was a an army genera.... regardless ofwhat an expert might say.
By the same logic if you say the prophet ALWAYS washed once and i say twice one of us is definitely wrong. If you say someone has only left eye and I state the right eye then again one of us is defintely wrong. Your example of the elephant is completely irrelevent to the very simple point being discussed. If you are unable to explain the two VERY SIMPLE PONITS... have the courage to say so.... you are welcome to consult your so called experts, scholars etc. Please do not patronise by saying you need to understand the whole picture... for the points are simple and basic,
regards
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Thursday, August 17, 2006  -  12:41 PM Reply with quote
--------------Posted - Monday, August 14, 2006 - 3:49 PM
The Prophet performed ablution by washing the body parts only once.
(Sahih Boekhari - Volume 1, Book 4, Number 159)

The Prophet performed ablution by washing the body parts twice.
(Sahih Boekhari - Volume 1, Book 4, Number 160)

------------------Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 11:57 AM
By the same logic if you say the prophet ALWAYS washed once and i say twice one of us is definitely wrong.
-------------
dear perv1
the use of ALWAYS in the arguement is additional.

There may be a person who is reporting has seen Prophet washing once.
He may washed twice on some other occassion and reported by someone else.

NO one claims Prophet always washed once or always twice as copied by you in the first post.
If someone said so then one of them must be wrong.

Moreover it is also not stated that one who wash twice will be wrong or vice versa.
So it may be optional,either one washes once or twice.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, August 17, 2006  -  2:44 PM Reply with quote
Salaam raushan

Like most who have fixed prejudices, you also fail to see the obvious flaws in the hadith from the two very simple examples i have given. If the hadith narrators are wrong regarding whether it was the left eye or the right, whether the prophet washed once twice or dozen times how can you possibly trust that the rest of them are correct.

One simple question do you believe the prophet would allow torture or sex with captive women?

regards
abm19

INDIA
Posted - Friday, August 18, 2006  -  10:32 AM Reply with quote
This is for the believers those who believe Qur’an without any kind of shirk.


Quote:- These are those people who hve not grasped the whole picture of elephant. So without the proper studying the ahadith one can not have whole picture.


REPLY:- Ah!! What an ????? example!!!


We should not expect anything good besides this type of opinion from a hadith worshipper. This guy tries to mean by citing the above example(gossip of blind men & elephant) that hadith is like the eyes of a man (as any one who has eyes can see how the elephant looks like) and the Qur'an is like the blind men’s that knowledge, which is gained by them through touching the elephant!!! Also he tries to say if a man uphold only Qur’an and does not read or accept hadith then he is like a blind man as per above example!!! How ridiculous!! Actually, this guy showed his true color regarding his position in respect of Islam.

I know from my previous experience that this type of people always prefer hadith over Qur’an. They can’t believe that Qur’an is complete, fully detailed, although they give their leap service for that. This type of people are IMPOSTORS. This type of people can’t think anything about islam leaving prophetic(alleged) hadith. Although they can’t be able to give any reference from the Qur’an in support of their thinking/hadith.

So brother I think that the discussion about Islam with that type of people will come to nothing fruitful.

[2:75] Do you expect them to believe as you do, when some of them used to hear the word of GOD, then distort it, with full understanding thereof, and deliberately?

[32:22] Who is more evil than one who is reminded of these revelations of his Lord, then insists upon disregarding them? We will certainly punish the guilty.

[31:6] Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless Hadith, and thus divert others from the path of GOD without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution.

[31:7] And when our revelations are recited to the one of them, he turns away in arrogance as if he never heard them, as if his ears are deaf. Promise him a painful retribution.

[10:100] No soul can believe except in accordance with GOD's will. For He places a curse upon those who refuse to understand.

ABM
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, August 18, 2006  -  1:00 PM Reply with quote
Walaykum Salam Perv.1

Quote:-If you have fixed ideas about your beliefs because of you cultural and social influences and are merely discussing to prove your prejudices right, then this is no longer a discussion but simply an argument and then there is no point in us proceeding any further.

Reply: -The belief in ahadith is not due to my cultural and social influences. The prove is that a very vast majority of Muslims all over the world in any single country having different culture and social environments but the common thing in us is that we all belief in ahadith as a main source of religion. So here you are wrong brother.

Quote:-If however you are prepared to go forward with an open mind and heart then we can continue with this discussion.

Reply: -Please opens your mind first. You have already decided about yours understanding of the religion.

Quote: -You do not have to be a scholar of anything to understand some very basic facts in anything in life e.g. maths, politics, science etc.

Reply: -This is not 2+2 brother do you have seen other ahadith on wudu and Mehdi before passing you judgments? Or you think that there are no other ahadith on these subjects?.Do you know that in 23 years of Prophetic life how many times and occasions Prophet(pbuh) has spoke on these topics?

Quote:-Please do not patronise by saying you need to understand the whole picture... for the points are simple and basic,

Reply: -Why not you ask the people of remembrance and find out your self. But if going to ask some one like Samsher Ali, so I can only mourn over on your aqil.

Allah Hafiz
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Sunday, August 20, 2006  -  2:54 PM Reply with quote
Salaam usmani 790

Let us not get side tracked and stick to simple points (which at present you appear uncapable of ) hence I will try again:

If your beloved hadith one person claims the prophet washed once and another says he washed twice. Can you tell me which of these two fellows is correct- as you are obviousouly blessed with superior Aqil you can explain these contradictory terms.

2nd Point- Can you tell me whether dajil had only a left eye or right eye. Because your beloved hadith cannot appear to agree on these simple matters. Since you posses so much aqil you will obviousouly have no problem in expalining these TWO VERY SIMPLE POINTS. Then we can move on further clarifications of the hadith.

quote:

Please opens your mind first. You have already decided about yours understanding of the religion.


Just to clarify, I was brought up with similar beliefs as yourself, but even as teenager I found too many contradictions in hadith. Perhaps when you reach your teens you may also reach the same conclusion.

regards
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, August 23, 2006  -  12:39 PM Reply with quote
Walaykum Salam Perv1

Quote:-If your beloved hadith one person claims the prophet washed once and another says he washed twice. Can you tell me which of these two fellows is correct- as you are obviousouly blessed with superior Aqil you can explain these contradictory terms.

Reply:-See your what you said before.

Quote:-Perhaps on this simple issue you who claim to understand the deen so well will explain to us (those who have not grasped the whole picture) what these contradictory statements mean.

When I explained it to you through the story of elephant, then what you have said

Quote:-Your example of the elephant is completely irrelevent to the very simple point being discussed.

Actually you don’t want to understand the ahadith rather you want make fun out of it.If you seriously wish to understand, then you have to agree with me on elephant story. Surely we can discuss it further.

I am not one of those whom have seen the hole picture but I knows those peoples.I will try to ask them if you have any questions.

Allah Hafiz
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Thursday, August 24, 2006  -  11:07 AM Reply with quote
Rejecting Hadiths
Q. A friend of mine argues that the Qur’an is the complete code for human life which is guaranteed by Allah to remain intact. Since no such promise is made in respect of the Hadith, he doubts the authenticity of every Hadith, even those included in the six authentic compilations. He says that the Qur’an is, as Allah describes it, clear and easy to understand in practice. He believes that the Qur’an is sufficient to practice Islam and he rejects all Hadiths whether they relate to belief, practices or other areas. He further argues that most Muslims idolise Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh). I am aggrieved by his attitude. Will you please shed light on this subject?


A. Your friend is not the first to make such arguments, nor will he be the last. Over the years, many people have tried to belittle the importance of Hadith and Sunnah. They always argue that since the Qur’an is the word of Allah, which has been guaranteed to be preserved intact, then it is all that is needed by any person to lead an Islamic life. I am afraid that this is only one aspect of how Satan sometimes succeeds in misleading people away from the right Islamic path. I often wonder how these people can continue to claim to be Muslims, when they should realise that their argument defies the very basic requirement of faith. Everyone knows that to be a Muslim, one needs first of all to declare his belief that “there is no deity save Allah, and that Muhammad is his Messenger.” The fact that this is the main first essential of faith means that we have to have a very clear concept of Allah and we have to know the role of the messenger.


When a person declares that he believes that Muhammad is Allah’s messenger, it implies that the person is the source from which we know Allah’s message and what He requires of us. We accept no other source whatsoever. The messenger has two main functions: Conveying the message and explaining it. The Prophet has conveyed to us the Qur’an which embodies Allah’s message. He has also conveyed to us a large number of Hadiths, which provide details of what is contained in the Qur’an. We cannot say that the Qur’an is the whole of Allah’s message and every thing else may be thrown away. The other function of the Prophet is to explain Allah’s message. This he had certainly done verbally and practically. For example, it is clear from the Qur’an that Allah requires us to believe in Him. There are numerous verses which explain to us Allah’s attributes. If one believes in the existence of Allah, and is fully aware of all His attributes mentioned in the Qur’an, would he have attained the degree of the truly faithful? The answer is that he has to evaluate his faith on the basis of the criteria set by Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) in the Hadith, which explains what is the practical meaning of having faith. Take for example, the Hadith which states: “Any one of you will not have truly attained faith unless Allah and His messenger are dearer to him than anything else, and unless his love or hate of any person is based on no reason other than his faith, and unless he hates to sink back into disbelief as much as he hates to be thrown in hell fire.” We say, then, that the Qur’an outlines clearly what is required of us in respect of believing in Allah and His messenger. This Hadith tells us of a degree of faith that must be attained if we want to be true believers. Moreover, explaining the message, it comes through the practical example the Prophet has set for us, showing us what it actually means to live as true believers.


Addressing His messenger, Allah says in the Qur’an : “To you we have revealed this Reminder, so that you may make clear to mankind what has been sent down to them, and that they may give thought”. The word, “Reminder”, refers here to the Qur’an. You note that the function of explanation and clarification, which the Prophet had to do, is set clearly in the Qur’anic verse. It cannot, then, be accepted from anyone to say that he is in no need of this explanation and clarification by the Prophet and that he will deal with the Qur’an himself. It should be remembered that the Hadith has not been added by the Prophet according to his own thoughts. To say this is to betray a total lack of knowledge of the status of Hadith. It is unanimously agreed by Muslim scholars throughout the history of Islam that what the Prophet has said concerning matters of religion has been revealed to him. He expresses in his own words, the thoughts and meaning that Allah has given him. He himself adds nothing.


Your friend says that Muslims idolise Prophet Muhammad.(Pbuh). He may have a point if he is referring to the practices of some Muslims who always speak of loving the Prophet and organising celebrations where they sing, praises of the Prophet, thinking that this is all they need to do in order to please Allah and His Messenger. But your friend is totally mistaken if he is referring to what scholars and Muslims who know their religion well state all the time, that following the example of the Prophet is the way to earn Allah’s pleasure. Indeed, to follow the example of the Prophet is to do what Allah has commanded us. Furthermore, it is the practical implementation of the second half of the declaration which brings any person into the fold of Islam : That is to say, the declaration that one believes in Muhammad as the last messenger of Allah.


Your friend is also mistaken in his interpretation of the Qur’anic order that we must not differentiate between Allah’s prophets and messengers. In order to know what Allah means by this order, the best way is to look at the Qur’anic verses which mention this. Verse 150 of Surah 4, entitled “Women”, may be translated as follows : “Those who deny Allah and His Messengers, and those that draw a line between Allah and His Messenger , saying : ‘We believe in some but deny others,’ thus seeking a middle way - these indeed are the unbelievers. For the unbelievers we have prepared a humiliating punishment. As for those that believe in Allah and His Messengers and do not discriminate against any of them, they shall be rewarded by Allah.” These verses are clear in referring to believing in Allah’s messengers in a way which does not lead to the denial of any one of them.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Monday, August 28, 2006  -  9:18 PM Reply with quote
Salaam all

Usmani 790, without meaning to be rude, Your logic is very flawed (whether it is your aqil or you are simply of closed mind).
The answer to the simple contradictions I posted was a very bizzarre story of the blind men and elephant.
Ok let us play the game with your rules (regardless of the fact how ridiculous they are):- I dont know how many blind people you know, but the most that i have come across are NOT STUPID to guess the shape of an object without feeling all of it. If any blind person (with any semblance of any intelligence) was to feel an elephant they would try to feel all of it (if it was possible) becuse elephants legs, tail, body etc are not detached from each other that the blind person will not be able to detect their continuity. No sane blind person would comment on a shape of any object that they were unable to feel fully. So your lephant example is a smoke screen for a very obvious contradiction which you appear unable to grasp.

To make matters even more simpler for you or any one else I will simplify the issue even further and remove the bit about body washing(as you guys obviousouly cannot cope with more than 1 issue at time) and just ask which of the Djall's eye was missing. Because your beloved hadiths are bit confused. If you have difficulty formulating n answer you have 2 simple choices:-
(1) Admit you have no idea how to explain this balatant contradiction.

(2) Hadiths are obviousouly contradictory hence one must be wrong.

However I have feeling you will again not adress the point raised but ramble on about something completely irrelevent (which the corruptors of Islam have mastered to hide their obvious illogicality and their lack of understanding of the Quran).

Incidentally your Mr Singh joke was crude and racist (even though you are unikely to even understand this point). All of the Singhs I know possess far more logic and intelligence than you have shown in your answerds.
regards

Edited by: ibrahim on Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:01 AM
Rakhtal

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, August 29, 2006  -  1:20 PM Reply with quote
Salam wa alaikom,

quote:

The answer to the simple contradictions I posted was a very bizzarre story of the blind men and elephant.
Ok let us play the game with your rules (regardless of the fact how ridiculous they are):- I dont know how many blind people you know, but the most that i have come across are NOT STUPID to guess the shape of an object without feeling all of it. If any blind person (with any semblance of any intelligence) was to feel an elephant they would try to feel all of it (if it was possible) becuse elephants legs, tail, body etc are not detached from each other that the blind person will not be able to detect their continuity. No sane blind person would comment on a shape of any object that they were unable to feel fully. So your lephant example is a smoke screen for a very obvious contradiction which you appear unable to grasp.


I disagree with you, Perv 1, because you do not understand perhaps it is beyond the scope of your intellectual access.

This is just an example or saying to make understand the people having no understanding at all. Take it as a saying only. Perv 1, if you are not understanding the saying at all, Tell me why you do not DARE to say, “Money makes the aeroplane go”, instead of saying “Money makes the mare go” According to your logic, Is the mare more costly or runs faster than an aeroplane?

So I totally agree with Usmani790.
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Tuesday, August 29, 2006  -  1:30 PM Reply with quote
TextRejecting Hadiths
Q. A friend of mine argues that the Qur’an is the complete code for human life which is guaranteed by Allah to remain intact. Since no such promise is made in respect of the Hadith, he doubts the authenticity of every Hadith, even those included in the six authentic compilations. He says that the Qur’an is, as Allah describes it, clear and easy to understand in practice. He believes that the Qur’an is sufficient to practice Islam and he rejects all Hadiths whether they relate to belief, practices or other areas. He further argues that most Muslims idolise Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh). I am aggrieved by his attitude. Will you please shed light on this subject?


A. Your friend is not the first to make such arguments, nor will he be the last. Over the years, many people have tried to belittle the importance of Hadith and Sunnah. They always argue that since the Qur’an is the word of Allah, which has been guaranteed to be preserved intact, then it is all that is needed by any person to lead an Islamic life. I am afraid that this is only one aspect of how Satan sometimes succeeds in misleading people away from the right Islamic path. I often wonder how these people can continue to claim to be Muslims, when they should realise that their argument defies the very basic requirement of faith. Everyone knows that to be a Muslim, one needs first of all to declare his belief that “there is no deity save Allah, and that Muhammad is his Messenger.” The fact that this is the main first essential of faith means that we have to have a very clear concept of Allah and we have to know the role of the messenger.
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Tuesday, August 29, 2006  -  1:34 PM Reply with quote
When a person declares that he believes that Muhammad is Allah’s messenger, it implies that the person is the source from which we know Allah’s message and what He requires of us. We accept no other source whatsoever. The messenger has two main functions: Conveying the message and explaining it. The Prophet has conveyed to us the Qur’an which embodies Allah’s message. He has also conveyed to us a large number of Hadiths, which provide details of what is contained in the Qur’an. We cannot say that the Qur’an is the whole of Allah’s message and every thing else may be thrown away. The other function of the Prophet is to explain Allah’s message. This he had certainly done verbally and practically. For example, it is clear from the Qur’an that Allah requires us to believe in Him. There are numerous verses which explain to us Allah’s attributes. If one believes in the existence of Allah, and is fully aware of all His attributes mentioned in the Qur’an, would he have attained the degree of the truly faithful? The answer is that he has to evaluate his faith on the basis of the criteria set by Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) in the Hadith, which explains what is the practical meaning of having faith. Take for example, the Hadith which states: “Any one of you will not have truly attained faith unless Allah and His messenger are dearer to him than anything else, and unless his love or hate of any person is based on no reason other than his faith, and unless he hates to sink back into disbelief as much as he hates to be thrown in hell fire.” We say, then, that the Qur’an outlines clearly what is required of us in respect of believing in Allah and His messenger. This Hadith tells us of a degree of faith that must be attained if we want to be true believers. Moreover, explaining the message, it comes through the practical example the Prophet has set for us, showing us what it actually means to live as true believers.
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Tuesday, August 29, 2006  -  1:36 PM Reply with quote
Addressing His messenger, Allah says in the Qur’an : “To you we have revealed this Reminder, so that you may make clear to mankind what has been sent down to them, and that they may give thought”. The word, “Reminder”, refers here to the Qur’an. You note that the function of explanation and clarification, which the Prophet had to do, is set clearly in the Qur’anic verse. It cannot, then, be accepted from anyone to say that he is in no need of this explanation and clarification by the Prophet and that he will deal with the Qur’an himself. It should be remembered that the Hadith has not been added by the Prophet according to his own thoughts. To say this is to betray a total lack of knowledge of the status of Hadith. It is unanimously agreed by Muslim scholars throughout the history of Islam that what the Prophet has said concerning matters of religion has been revealed to him. He expresses in his own words, the thoughts and meaning that Allah has given him. He himself adds nothing.

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