| Author | Topic |
sksamsherali
INDIA
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 Posted - Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 10:31 AM 
quote:
“A return to the Qur’an does not mean that we destroy all the books of hadith and all the books of the religious scholars, nor do we mean that we no longer need the religious scholars. It only means that we must refer to the Qur’an alone as infallible guidance.”
---its not said by Dr. Robert D. Crane i suppose rather he quoted it from a submitter.
REPLY:- Qur'an is the ONLY SOURCE OF LAW(RELIGIOUS) OF ISLAM. QUR'AN ITSELF SAYS THAT WE SHOULD NOT ACCEPT ANY OTHER SOURCE AS SOURCE OF LAW OF ISLAM BESIDES IT(QUR'AN)(6:114). No hadith, no fabricated sunnah etc....and return to the ONLY QUR'AN DEFINITELY MEANS THAT WE SHOULD FOLLOW ONLY QUR'AN AS OUR ONLY GUIDANCE(RELIGIOUS)and nothing else. ALMIGHTY ALLAH DID NOT PERMIT US TO TAKE ANYTHING i.e. THE BOOK OF HADITH etc. AS SOURCE OF ISLAM BESIDES QUR'AN.
Samsher |
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raushan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 11:04 AM
source of law(shariat) has very limited meaning ,if you agree.
what about the beliefs. |
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sksamsherali
INDIA
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Posted - Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 6:41 AM
quote:
source of law(shariat) has very limited meaning ,if you agree.
what about the beliefs.
REPLY:- Qur'an is the only Source of Law (religious) of Islam. Could you please tell me brother what is Its limitted meaning? Also please tell me what is the definition of belief(religious) according to you?
Samsher |
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raushan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 8:21 AM
salam,
Belief about Allah :He is Most Gracious, Most Merciful,the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds and Master of the Day of Judgment
001.001
YUSUFALI: In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
001.002
YUSUFALI: Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
001.003
YUSUFALI: Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
001.004
YUSUFALI: Master of the Day of Judgment.
source of law:
004.003
YUSUFALI: If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice. |
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sksamsherali
INDIA
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Posted - Friday, October 13, 2006 - 7:32 AM
This is not the answer of my above question. Your opinion is ambiguous
Samsher
Edited by: ibrahim on Monday, October 30, 2006 8:41 AM |
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Loveall
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Sunday, October 15, 2006 - 8:52 AM
QUOTE: - Now can any one came and ask a question by saying that ‘What does mean SOIL mentioned in the above verse’??? And as this verse does not say us what is SOIL, so we can’t observe the dry ablution unless we accept outside source about SOIL besides Qur’an as our religious source!!!
So any people who taught us the things like SOIL etc (mentioned in the Holy Quran) can they teach us many more about the other things and the matters discussed in the Holy Quran?
If you think for a while, you have ACCEPTED INDIRECTLY the validity of Ahadith and other sources to understand the Holy Quran. Isn’t it?
QUOTE: - Also please tell me what is the definition of belief (religious) according to you?
Though you didn’t address me, I would like to answer noted from a link given by someone, regarding the sayings of Hazrat Ali (Ra)- The fourth caliph.
Hazrat Ali (Ra) said, “Anyone who is free of any doubt is a believer” |
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sksamsherali
INDIA
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Posted - Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 9:02 AM
Salam,
Quote: - So any people who taught us the things like SOIL etc (mentioned in the Holy Quran) can they teach us many more about the other things and the matters discussed in the Holy Quran?
If you think for a while, you have ACCEPTED INDIRECTLY the validity of Ahadith and other sources to understand the Holy Quran. Isn’t it?
REPLY:- Your first question is out of context and also I never opined this.
Regarding your second allegation, you did not understand my main question. My quote itself was a question which I asked to someone.
I told several times that Qur’an is a book of Guidance for mankind, neither any science book nor any recipe book etc..etc.. All that require for our salvation are given in the Qur’an in DETAIL. Almighty Allah Himself says that ‘QUR’AN IS FULLY DETAILED’. So no question should arise in support of taking other source as source of Islamic law(religious).
Brother, why could/can you not show me any verse from the Qur’an wherein it is said that we should take the help of fabricated ahadith to understand the FULLY DETAILED QUR’AN???
Brother, actually to prove the validity of false sayings (attributed to Muhammad) you people always try to condemn the words of Almighty God e.g Almighty God says in the Qur’an that ‘we should not seek any other source as source of religious law besides Qur’an’ and ‘Qur’an is fully detailed, complete & perfect’, but you people say otherwise. You people say that Qur’an can’t be understood without the help of ahadith(fabricated) and Qur’an is not complete, fully detailed…..etc..etc. Yet after all of these you people claimed that you are muslim!!!! What a shame!!!
Quote: - Though you didn’t address me, I would like to answer noted from a link given by someone, regarding the sayings of Hazrat Ali (Ra)- The fourth caliph.
Hazrat Ali (Ra) said, “Anyone who is free of any doubt is a believer”
REPLY:- Nonsense. If any one accept idolatry without any doubt, then brother according to your idol Hazrat Ali will he be called believer according to Qur’an???
Samsher |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 3:17 PM
Dear Samsher,
I think we all agree that the holy Qur'an is the true source of guidance.
The holy Qur'an contains enough guidance to save one's soul from the Hell fire.
Even though it claims it is fully detailed and contains everything, we all know that everything is not in a universal sense. It only contains everything that is needed for our guidance and that everything is fully detailed.
For the other things that are not included in the holy Qur'an, people over the centuries have resorted to other sources. Hadith is one such source. Whether or not a hadith is fabricated or authentic, that should be investigated for each hadith - and is very difficult to do today.
I hope you agree with me. |
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sksamsherali
INDIA
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Posted - Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 8:56 AM
Salam,
Dear oosman,
Quote:- I think we all agree that the holy Qur'an is the true source of guidance.
REPLY:- Brother, your statement is half truth. The full truth is, not only the Qur’an is the true source but IT also is the ONLY SOURCE OF GUIDANCE (RELIGIOUS) FOR US.
Quote:- The holy Qur'an contains enough guidance to save one's soul from the Hell fire.
REPLY:- The Holy Qur’an is COMPLETE GUIDANCE for mankind. Then why do you find other source i.e. ahadith(fabricated) etc… for your guidance when it is complete guidance and also it is prohibited, to take them as source, in the Qur’an?
Quote:- Even though it claims it is fully detailed and contains everything, we all know that everything is not in a universal sense.
REPLY:-Several times I told that Qur’an is neither a recipe book nor a science book etc…etc.. or It does not say how to ride motor car etc.. Qur’an is the COMPLETE GUIDE(RELIGIOUS) BOOK FOR US and in that sense IT IS FULLY DETAILED. And as It is FULLY DETAILED regarding our religious guidance, so no other book should require for us as guide(religious) book. Why do you not try to understand this?
Quote:- It only contains everything that is needed for our guidance and that everything is fully detailed.
REPLY:- Then why do you find volumes & volumes of fabricated ahadith for your guidance(religious)???
Quote:- For the other things that are not included in the holy Qur'an, people over the centuries have resorted to other sources. Hadith is one such source. Whether or not a hadith is fabricated or authentic, that should be investigated for each hadith - and is very difficult to do today.
I hope you agree with me.
REPLY:- One thing here should be very clear. We have been discussing here whether Qur’an is fully detailed, complete regarding our religious guidance or not. Almighty Allah says in the Qur’an that IT is FULLY DETAILED, COMPLETE, PERFECT AND WE SHOULD NOT SEEK ANY OTHER SOURCE AS SOURCE OF LAW(RELIGIOUS). Then why do you so anxious about other fabricated sources when Qur’an does not give any weight/importance to these sources towards Guidance(religious) for us?
As far as religious guidance is concerned we should not take any other source(s) as source of law besides Qur’an and I hope you will have to agree with me if you are Muslim.
Peace
Samsher. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 3:29 PM
shamsher,
I think you just want to have a fight. Even though I stated the points that we do agree on, you have tried to point to differences.
I never said we should follow fabricated hadith. You said that I said it, but I did not. Please read the messaages carefully before shooting your mouth off.
Also I may agree with you or disagree with you - you have no right to impose that if I am a Muslim then I will agree with you.
Allah will judge me if I am Muslim or not - you have no right to do that. Please do not impose such ridiculous demands!
You think you are the only one who has the truth! What arrogance!
The Quran is enough gudiance. So follow it, and that is good for us. If someone seeks explaination of something that he/she does not understand in the Quran, then what is this person supposed to do? Tell me?
Personally I do not believe that hadith should be used for fiqh. It is dangerous to do that as many are fabricated and lies. The layman specially does not understand which is true and which is false.
The Quran says:
O you who believe! If a evil person comes to you with a news, verify it, lest you harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful to what you have done. 49.6
Many hadith are fabrications by wicked people. We need to verify each hadith before we blindly follow.
Question is what should a layman do who cannot verify a hadith?
According to Shamsher, reject all the hadith books. What do other people think? |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Friday, October 20, 2006 - 10:20 PM
| Simple question for you. Do you think anyone who follows hadith is a kaffir? Answer yes,no, or don't know. |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Friday, October 20, 2006 - 11:25 PM
Salaam
quote:
Simple question for you. Do you think anyone who follows hadith is a kaffir? Answer yes,no, or don't know.
Sorry to butt in as the question was addressed to another. However briefly glancing through this caught my attention and I could not resist a quick reply-hope you dont mind.
Kaffir has many meanings so depends on what you mean by such a word.
However whoever follows hadith as a source of religion is not a follower of the Quran as he/she is directly going against what is stated again and again in the Quran.
One logic which constantly escapes me is: Many in this forum (and others) repeatedly accepts that there are hadiths which are corrupt, outright lies and anti islamic and yet continue to insist that hadith are somehow part of Islam as there are others which are not so bad!
I suppose each to their own. After all the Quran does state there is no compulsion in religion.
regars |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 4:54 PM
I was not aware kaffir has many meanings, can you elaborate.
I agree hadith is not a source of religion and neither should it be used to make law. Many hadith are of dubious nature. I treat the hadith literature the same way I treat the Bible. Both are man made. But they do contain many good things, and it is our loss if we throw away the good.
One can learn a lot from Biblical text and Hadith without deriving religious law out of it. You can learn how people used to pray, give alms, how they lived, what they wore, how long they lived - and so many details that are just not there in the Quran. Treat these books as historical references. |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Sunday, October 22, 2006 - 7:24 AM
AOA
quote:
I agree hadith is not a source of religion and neither should it be used to make law. Many hadith are of dubious nature
.
We are in agreement on this.
quote:
I was not aware kaffir has many meanings, can you elaborate.
Here is a flavour (sorry I have been bit lazy and just copied it from elsewhere) however there are many other meanings still:
Kafir (Arabic: كافر kāfir; plural كفّار kuffār) is an Arabic word meaning an unbeliever,a person who hides, denies, or covers the truth.
In cultural terms, it is a derogatory term used to describe an unbeliever, non-Muslims, a Muslim of a differing sect, or an apostate from Islam.
It is usually translated into English as "infidel" or "unbeliever".
Debate exists between some Muslim scholars as to whether the term applies to Jews and Christians, as these can also be regarded as Dhimmi, or People of the Book.
It has been used historically to identify Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, and followers of non-denominational religions or local, pagan traditions.
Some distinguish between Kafir and non-Muslims, as Kafir is used by the Qur'an for people, who were guilty of rejection or non-acceptance of the truth, even after it has become fully apparent to them, while non-Muslim is primarily a term implying a person, who does not ascribe to the Islamic faith
Kaffir, or kafir, which once was a blanket term for black southern Africans (see South Africa Kaffir people), is now used exclusively as an ethnic or racial slur. The original meaning of the word was 'heathen'.
regards |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Sunday, October 22, 2006 - 4:24 PM
Note also that they holy Quran calls Iblees a Kafir, even though he definitely was a believer in Allah. Only that he rejected Allah's command to bow down before Adam, and he was arrogant, that made him a Kafir.
The people today who follow something that they think is part of religion, and they in their ignorance or naivity do not know it is not - I am afraid such people cannot be called Kafir. They are neither arrogant nor rejectors like Iblees was. They have good intentions, but they do not realize what they are doing is wrong. |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Sunday, October 22, 2006 - 10:02 PM
salaam
quote:
I am afraid such people cannot be called Kafir. They are neither arrogant nor rejectors like Iblees was.
Who called who a kafir? As I said you need to define what it means. If anyone is offended by a particular label and someone insists on calling that person by that label which can only mean that they are trying to deliberately offend-which are not the actions of a good muslim/human being.
Besides one can give oneself any label but it is our actions that define what we are.
quote:
Treat these books as historical references
.
I am afraid this is where you completely misunderstand the whole hadith issue. The hadith were not collected to define isalmic history but to actually define islamic beliefs, rituals and were meant to be an integral part of Islam and that is exactly what the vast majority of their followers believe them to be.
Without doubt the hadiths have been the biggest source of corruption and division in Islam.
At best the hadith were a misguded attempt to redefine Islam about 200 years after the completion of the Quran. At worst they are the work of the devil to corrupt Islam-as how else can you explain the source that tells that the Prophet Mohd was a Paedophile, Condoned Rape and torture without enraging the muslims throughout the history. That is because the hadith have deployed the clever trick of burying these sayings amongst so many so called good sayings that very few intially noticed them and now they are so ingrained in the Muslim psychy that so called muslims will go to bizzare lengths and arguements to justify these hadith.
There is no place in Islam for hadith either as source of history or as a part of deen. For they have brought nothing but destruction to this wonderful religion
eid mubarak to everone wherever and whenever they are celebrting |
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