| Author | Topic |
uhmelas
PAKISTAN
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 Posted - Friday, August 19, 2005 - 8:25 PM 
| Very good and very interesting, Sksamsherali, to point out the history of Quran and reveal the deeds of the corrupt Muslims after the holy prophet (pbup) had passed away. Alas! Most of the Muslims follow them as the great innocent Islamic leaders, very well responsible, faithful and dutiful of Islam. |
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Zulfee
USA
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Posted - Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 8:49 PM
To all and specially usmani790,
When he can not understand this simple things that many times in Quran we have seen that Obey Allah and Obey Messenger. Who is this Messenger Allah is referring to? Surely Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).
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The discussions have become too long but nobody could understand the meaning of obey the messenger, not Muhammad which brother sksamsherali is trying to convey repeatedly.
Suppose I (Zulfee) am the chief executive of some institution. My subordinates are bound to obey me as the chief executive only and never as Zulfee to obey me what I personally command them to do every other task everywhere. It is very simple.
According to Quran brother sksamsherali is more right. All others have failed to understand or bring the arguments supported by Quran. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, August 22, 2005 - 11:45 AM
Dear Brother Zulfee
Quote:The discussions have become too long but nobody could understand the meaning of obey the messenger, not Muhammad which brother sksamsherali is trying to convey repeatedly.
Suppose I (Zulfee) am the chief executive of some institution. My subordinates are bound to obey me as the chief executive only and never as Zulfee to obey me what I personally command them to do every other task everywhere. It is very simple.
According to Quran brother sksamsherali is more right. All others have failed to understand or bring the arguments supported by Quran.
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Brother you did not gone through my post on August 17,2005.I had already given enough prove from Quran on this regards.
The example you gave of a chief executive has no comparison with the prophet Muhammed(pbuh). See the following reasons-
1)Towards chief executive one has limited obligations to follow.He should be followed only for the matters related to that particular company’s business functions only. While Islam is a way of life and how one Muslim should live his life is must be accordance with Quran and Sunnah of Prophet Muhammed(pbuh).
Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah. (33:21)
So according to Quran, its become the duty of a Muslims that they must find out the pattern of Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) (which only be found in the Sunnah) and try to follow it to the best of our abilities. Surely Allah does not asked some thing which one can not find it and do it.
And We sent down towards you the Advice (i.e. the Qur’ân) so that you may explain to the people what has been sent down to them, and so that they may ponder. (16:44)
No believer, neither man nor woman, has a right, when Allâh and His Messenger decide a matter, to have a choice in their matter in issue. And whoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger has gone astray into manifest error. (33:36)
Believe, then, in Allâh and His Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, who believes in Allâh and His words, and follow him so that you may be on the right path. (7:158)
Say, if you love Allâh, follow me and Allâh will love you and forgive you your sins. (3:31)
And he (the Prophet (pbuh) does not speak out of his own desire. It is not but a revelation revealed (to him). (53:3-4)
2) Even if chief executive ask you to carried out some job for the company which is against the teaching of Islam. For example if he ask some one to give bribe to some one to carried out some official work, if any Muslim who is not spouse to do it and if he will do It, he will commit a sin. Since we have the saying of prophet (pbuh) who ever will give or take the bribe shall go to hell.
3) Chief executive can be changed may be Mr. Zulfee or some one else could take over his place, but from the time of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and for us and for the generations has to come until the Qyamah, Muhammad (pbuh) is our prophet. No one will take over his place. So in this case if we say Messenger (pbuh) or Muhammed (pbuh) is the same.
The Time Limit of the Prophetic Authority
Say: O mankind! I am the Messenger of Allah to you all… (7:158)
And We did not send you (O Prophet) except to the entire mankind, bearing good news and warning. (34:28)
And We did not send you save as a mercy unto all the worlds. (21:107)
Blessed be He Who has sent down the Qur’ân on His servant so that he may be a warner to all the worlds. (25:1)
And We have sent you (O Prophet) for mankind as a messenger. And Allâh suffices to be a witness. (4:79)
O mankind! The Messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, so believe: it is better for you. And if you disbelieve, to Allâh belongs what is in the heavens and in the earth. And Allâh is All-Knowing, All-Wise. (4:170)
The problem is here is that we don’t have enough knowledge of sunnah, reasons could be many, one may be the our priorities which we set for our life, following religion is not at the top of our prioties, then we start arguing about it.
If we see in Quran and sunnah that one should earned his living halal ways but the earning the halal ways are not limited. We have many choices on that, we can be doctor, engineer, lawyer etc etc ,we can do trading or set up our on business we are free to adopt our profession.
As far as following the five pillars is concerned 99 percent Muslim already doing these according sunnah of our prophet (pbuh).
Quote: According to Quran brother sksamsherali is more right. All others have failed to understand or bring the arguments supported by Quran.
These kinds people always having hidden agenda behind them. What they will do first will pick some points, which are already agreed upon within Muslim ummah.
And then try to convied people that they are right and other are wrong .Samsher Ali started with that we should follow Quran only. Later we come to know that he claim that two verses of Quran infact are not part of Quran and then told that prophet Muhammed(pbuh) is not the last messenger. According to him Rasad Khalifa was the last messenger don’t know what else he still hiding.
If we read the history we will know that even at the time of Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) some people has claimed that they are the messenger of Allah. Prophet (pbuh) fought the war against them and killed them.
Mirza ahmed qadiani also claim that he is messenger of Allah.Be side others wrong teachings,he told that Qital is no more reqired. Because he was the agent of British empire of that time.
I have given you the very brief reply on this regard. Now this upto you to decide.
Nor can a bearer of burdens bear another's burdens if one heavily laden should call another to (bear) his load. Not the least portion of it can be carried (by the other). Even though he be nearly related. Thou canst but admonish such as fear their Lord unseen and establish regular Prayer. And whoever purifies himself does so for the benefit of his own soul; and the destination (of all) is to Allah. The blind and the seeing are not alike; Nor are the depths of Darkness and the Light; Nor are the (chilly) shade and the (genial) heat of the sun: Nor are alike those that are living and those that are dead. Allah can make any that He wills to hear; but thou canst not make those to hear who are (buried) in graves. (35:18-22)
I will request you that you should carried out a deep study by your own.Quran and Sunnah is in the approach of yours self I blief.Here I am giving you the web site where you can also find many translation of Quran and also you can access to hadith of Muslim, Bukhari, Abudawud and Muwatta.
http://www.searchtruth.com/
Allah Hafiz
Edited by: ibrahim on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 5:37 AM |
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karime
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, August 22, 2005 - 11:58 AM
QUOTE: The discussions have become too long but nobody could understand the meaning of obey the messenger, not Muhammad which brother sksamsherali is trying to convey repeatedly.
Suppose I (Zulfee) am the chief executive of some institution. My subordinates are bound to obey me as the chief executive only and never as Zulfee to obey me what I personally command them to do every other task everywhere. It is very simple.
>>>okkkkkk. Then I consider Allah as “ chief executive “ and Mohammad (s.a) as His Subordinate. Now Allah revealed his words/message to Mohammad (s.a) by Hazrat Jibrail (a.s) only to receive & send HIS message to the other people on the earth.
His (Mohammad s.a) duty was only to receive and send/distribute the same message of Allah among the people.
He had no any other duty. Whenever any verse was revealed then he came among the people and informed or (recited) the verse and went to his home back to obey according the same (verse) . or his duty was only to repeat the same words by his own tongue. ( that ‘all) isn’t???
Quran clearly tells that people would come to him and asked solution about their problems of life and hereafter.
See:
The reply of the believers when they are summoned to Allah and His messenger so that he can judge between them, is to say, "We hear and we obey." They are ones who are successful. (Surat an-Nur, 51)
When Allah and His messenger have decided something it is not for any man or woman of the believers to have a choice about it. Anyone who disobeys Allah and His messenger is clearly misguided. (Surat al-Ahzab, 36)
You who believe! Respond to Allah and to the messenger when He calls you to what will bring you to life! Know that Allah intervenes between a man and his heart and that you will be gathered to Him. (Surat al-Anfal, 24)
Why people used to come to him for decisions, if his duty was only to receive and send message. then any one used to come to him, he should have had to say only “ this is the word/verse, take this, obey and go away”.
But it was not so…..This was the because of that people understood that they had to obey him in the regard of obedience Allah & His Rasul otherwise if they did not consulted or Holy Prophet did manage a system to run, there would have been NO such above type of verses that refer to EVENTS. There is a complete relation among them.
He ( Mohammad s.a ) has been called “ teacher” “leader”…etc,
I think even word “ Teacher “ is enough to know about Mohammad (s.a). Do you ever see any teacher who enter into classroom holding a book of i.e physics, chemistry…etc (OR words of the same book by tongue) and repeat the same in front of you and then says “this is over I told you about the subject or topic” now I see you again.
I think if you keep any sense, you will ask him, hey teacher what did you tell us from the book, ( that I can also buy or I have the same) then what is use of ur teacher to be here?
This Brother (sksamsherali) main point in this regard is as follows:
Quote: God asserts to all believers that prophet Muhammad was commanded not to teach any other teachings, otherwise he would incur severe punishment from God:
>>>Sure this is right, and we say the same, but he does not understand.
I ask what did he (Mohammad s.a) taught to them, did they (Arabs) not know Arabic or correct pronunciations of language, if his duty was only to deliver the message. ( what did he taught). Who says him to teach them and Y he has been called to teach them. ( I think there should be word “ TELL them not Teach, you know well difference between these words).
See if I have remembered the “ the book” or heard the message and give u the same, now we both are EQUAL, because I remembered and you have the same in written, now both are equally responsible.there is no any difference between you & me.
Now you have no authority to ask me, and I have no to ask you because both have the same AND WE ALSO BOTH KEEP THE SENSE OF UNDERSTANDING, OUR SENSE OF UNDERSTANDING BE DIFFERENT OR SAME, AND EVEN THIS BOOK IS DISTRIBUTED TO EVERY ONE, THEN EVERY ONE MAY KEEP DIFFERENT SENSE OF UNDERSTANDING OF THE SAME BOOK, WHERE AS BOOK IS ONLY ONE THE SAME TO ALL. BUT EVERY HAS DIFFERENT UNDERSTANDING.
NOW DO U CONSIDER ALL THEY WILL BE ABLE TO RUN AN EQUAL SYSTEM OF ALL ON THE EARTH. (example is here of discussion).
THEREFORE A TEACHER, A LEADER …ETC. is chosen by Allah ownself TO RUN HIS SYSTEM EQUALLY.
AND MOHAMMAD (S.A) told or expressed the teaching ( inspired by Allah ) of The Quran and we find by historical unchanged custom of life and in books i.e Hadith.
Every one is to eager to know what Mohammad (s.a) understood about any verse or event we are discussing, they want to follow the same.
Moreover, this ( brother sksamsherali ) and his group want to make them FREE FREE and FREE from all boundaries, and want to make/follow their own understanding of The Holy Quran, as any time any one whatever they like they change the sense of verses according to their own WISHES OR NAFS”.
Their leader “ Rashad” introduced himself as “Rasul” of Allah because he saw that if he did not make/give him any extra ordinary appearance, NO ONE BELIEVE HIM, THEN he made himself RASUL and expressed his views to the people to believe him. Where as THEY themselves do not believe in message of “Rasul” ( Mohammad s.a) what a sense…..!
They took the help of duty of Rasul, and EVEN deny him too….! They are false to themselves…
The Holy Quran is for all and every one has equal rights to understand or to follow then I THINK NO ONE IS BOUND TO FOLLOW OTHERS…
But you find One who is Mohammad (s.a) quoted as in the following verse..
You have an excellent model in the messenger of Allah, for all who put their hope in Allah and the Last Day and remember Allah much" (Surat al-Ahzab, 21).
Regards,
A.karime, Jacobabad
Edited by: ibrahim on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 5:40 AM |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, August 22, 2005 - 12:43 PM
Dear Brother Samsher
Quote:What is the book mentioned here in this verse, Mr. brother? Do you find any other book for your religious guidance besides Qur’an? I think you do……. I think the verses you mentioned here are the warning for you and for your team.
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In the very same book(That is Quran)which you are reffering, we find the following verse.
Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah. (33:21)
When we go in the search of the beautiful pattern of Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) which Allah is referring to,we found it in the books Sunnah of prophet(pbuh).
So according to Quran, its become the duty of a Muslims that they must find out the pattern of Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) (which only be found in the Sunnah) and try to follow it to the best of our abilities. Surely Allah does not asked some thing which one can not find it and do it.
And We sent down towards you the Advice (i.e. the Qur’ân) so that you may explain to the people what has been sent down to them, and so that they may ponder. (16:44)
When if we go in the search of explanation of Quran by prophet Muhammed which Allah is referring here,we found it in the books sunnah and hadith of Prophet(pbuh)
Surely Allah does not asked some thing which one can not find it and do it.
Allah Hafiz |
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Loveall
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 12:42 AM
QUOTE (sksamsherali): - Hadith believing Muslims make big claims on the so called scientific compilation of Hadith. Let it be clear however, that no matter how scientific you are in your compilation of what is "false" to start with, the compilation cannot make it true.
I think that Hadith might not be said or compiled primarily on the scientific basis but if we see today, their wisdom and truthfulness they are quite compatible with the latest scientific facts.
I shall quote a typical example of Hadith (Muslim- Book 33, No. 6392) about the creation of man in the womb with special reference to 40 days and it is found same today in the latest medical literature by the nonmuslim authors. Although brief steps of creation of man in the womb are mentioned in many Quranic verses but as far as my knowledge is concerned 40 days are not mentioned anywhere in Quran. 1426 year ago, who had told Mohammad (peace be upon him) about this matter?
I can comment only on about which I have the knowledge. Tell ANY Hadith, related to the human body from the head to toes, which you have found incompatible with the scientific facts. I will let you know very much implicitly how you are wrong.
QUOTE (Zulfee): - Suppose I (Zulfee) am the chief executive of some institution. My subordinates are bound to obey me as the chief executive only and never as Zulfee to obey me what I personally command them to do every other task everywhere. It is very simple.
The example is NOT suitable here. The chief executive and the subordinates have their entirely different job descriptions or the chief executive never does which the subordinates do BUT the Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) himself did the all as well, which he delivered to us to do. |
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sksamsherali
INDIA
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Posted - Friday, August 26, 2005 - 1:39 PM
Salam brother,
Quote:-When we go in the search of the beautiful pattern of Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) which Allah is referring to, we found it in the books Sunnah of prophet(pbuh).
So according to Quran, its become the duty of a Muslims that they must find out the pattern of Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) (which only be found in the Sunnah) and try to follow it to the best of our abilities.
>>> According to you the pattern of Prophet Muhammad cannot find in the Qur’an rather men-made hadith. What a compliment about the Nobel Qur’an!!!
Brother, I believe that the beautiful pattern of Prophet Muhammad only be found in the Nobel Qur’an and nothing else. So there is huge difference between your belief and my belief and Almighty Allah knows the best.
Quote: And We sent down towards you the Advice (i.e. the Qur’ân) so that you may explain to the people what has been sent down to them, and so that they may ponder. (16:44)
>>> Discussed earlier.
Indeed God takes an oath from His prophet of what was revealed to him. The oath contains nothing but the Quran:
"Say, ‘What is the greatest testimony?’ Say, ‘God is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed you bear witness that there are other gods beside God.’ Say, ‘I do not testify as you do; but surely He is one God, and I disown your idolatry." 6:19
Finally God commands the prophet to rule and arbitrate between the people with Quran and nothing but the Quran:
"We have sent down to you this Ketab, truthfully, in order to arbitrate between the people." 4:105
Allah knows the Best.
Salam,
Samsher. |
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sksamsherali
INDIA
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Posted - Friday, August 26, 2005 - 2:03 PM
Salam,
Quote:- Well brother, if there “WERE” no shortage of people who could produce Arabic Statements, then SURELY there “ARE” also who CAN now produce…… isn’t?
Then brother do THIS or make/fabricate a few verses of IT and add these into the Holy Book to prove YOUR STATEMENT TRUE as past people did …and if you yourself do not dare to do so, then CALL OTHERS….may they be able to do so….
>>> Two verses i.e. 9:128 – 129 were injected and Code-19 of the Qur’an proved this. So brother don’t be excited. Also history says how and when the two verses were injected into the copy of the Qur’an. That situation is not present now and also there is no question arises at present for this. Brother I ask you why the Original Qur’an which Prophet Muhammad written by his own hand, destroyed by the mean after re-writing the copy of Qur’an?
Quote:- ohh..! when this whole universe is running with an automatic protection system, no one change even a bit of turning night into day & day into night, no one can change the rising and setting of sun…etc. Then how this is possible that a man can change HIS book “ about which HIS saying is ENOUGH for an automatic protection” (2:23.24).
>>> What about Torah & Injeel? Were these not sayings of Almighty Allah? Then how could change/add into the words of God by men? According to you these should also be protected by an automatic protection. Isn’t….?
Quote:- Moreover you can CUT, but not ADD/MAKE verses.
>>> The result will be the same whether you cut or add, Code 19 proved this and will prove this.
Quote:- “And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then PRODUCE a SURA LIKETHEREUNTO”
it is not said that you can not cut, but it is said that you can not produce/make/add.
>>> Verses 9:128-129 produced by someone at the time of re-writing the Qur’an 1400(appx.) years ago my brother, not cut.
Quote:- So I think this does’nt matter, if you cut a few but many and even a complete surah of Holy Quran and distribute the rest to your fellows around the world.
>>> If you cut/delete any surah of Holy Qur’an and distribute the rest even to your nearest kin, they will not accept it as complete Holy Qur’an. Please try yourself to do this.
QUOTE:- I read brother, Is tomorrow the last day?, and you are in minority, I think turning of people to you people may HARM you, then plz do stop them…..otherwise you face the same situation of being in majority..
>>> No brother your theory is completely wrong. Please see the followings:
[6:116] If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of GOD. They follow only conjecture; they only guess.
Almighty Allay says that majority people always follow conjecture, but you say no!
[12:103] Most people, no matter what you do, will not believe.
Almighty says that most people do not believe. I accept this but you do not.
[12:106] The majority of those who believe in GOD do not do so without committing idol worship.
I believe the above word of God but you don’t. So it is your choice whether you believe all these verses or not.
Quote:- I say if there is two or even a single man has a different “understanding” than others, he would be listed in minority of ALL others, and I think you people are more than one/two.
>>> I believe only Qur’an and nothing else. Moreover Almighty Allah Says so, not me. Pl. try to give some references from the Qur’an in support of your opinion in future as I gave you or in this forum, not on the basis of your whims.
Quote: O sorry! Except “ Rashad” and those whose who comes in this circle.. isn’t?
>>> As a messenger Rashad did not make any mistake but as a man he could do as all the men do.
Quote:- When Allah and His messenger have decided something it is not for any man or woman of the believers to have a choice about it. Anyone who disobeys Allah and His messenger is clearly misguided. (Surat al-Ahzab, 36)
>>> As I earlier said that Messenger was not the another agent of Message. He was the agent of Almighty Allah through whom the message i.e. Qur’an was revealed and nothing else. But you can not understand this.
"...If any do fail to judge by what Allah(God) has sent down (i.e the Quran), they are unbelievers." (Quran 5:45).
"...If any do fail to judge by that which Allah has sent down, they are tyrants(dhilamoon)." (Quran 5:45)
"...If any do fail to judge by that which Allah has sent down, such are evil-livers (fasikoon)." (Quran 5:47)
The Quran reports that the messenger himself will complain to God about his so called followers abandoning the Quran:
"And the messenger says, "O my Lord, my OWN people have forsaken the Quran." (Quran 25:30)
Allah knows the best.
Samsher ali. |
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sksamsherali
INDIA
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Posted - Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 10:20 AM
Salam brother,
QUOTE :- I think that Hadith might not be said or compiled primarily on the scientific basis but if we see today, their wisdom and truthfulness they are quite compatible with the latest scientific facts.
I shall quote a typical example of Hadith (Muslim- Book 33, No. 6392) about the creation of man in the womb with special reference to 40 days and it is found same today in the latest medical literature by the nonmuslim authors. Although brief steps of creation of man in the womb are mentioned in many Quranic verses but as far as my knowledge is concerned 40 days are not mentioned anywhere in Quran. 1426 year ago, who had told Mohammad (peace be upon him) about this matter?
>>> How could you conclude that prophet Muhammad told this hadis? Imam Muslim born more or less than 200 years after the death of prophet Muhammad and he collected hadith from various sources more than 215-230 years after the death of Prophet, then how could you say with certainty that those who had told the hadith to him were truthful?
2ndly, I told several times in this forum that Almighty Allah says “WE SHOULD NOT ACCEPT ANY OTHER SOURCE BESIDES QUR’AN AS RELIGIOUS SOURCE OF ISLAM”.
3rdly, suppose your quoted hadis is true, then I ask you, inspite of truthfulness of this hadis can we accept this as religious source of Islam?
Lastly, let us see how far your quoted hadis is right according Qur’an. But first see what does say your quoted hadis;
Book 033, Number 6392:
Hudhaifa b. Usaid reported directly from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) that lie said: When the drop of (semen) remains in the womb FOR FORTY OR FIFTY (DAYS) or forty nights, the angel comes and says: My Lord, will he be good or evil? And both these things would be written. Then the angel says: My Lord, would he be male or female? And both these things are written. And his deeds and actions, his death, his livelihood; these are also recorded. Then his document of destiny is rolled and there is no, addition to and subtraction from it.
Now you commented on this hadis “about the creation of man in the womb with special reference to 40 days and it is found same today in the latest medical literature by the non-muslim authors”.
>>> How much days brother, 40 days or 50 days after which man is created?
2ndly, where in this hadis it is said that man is created after 40 days’?
Let us now see what the Nobel Qur’an says about this matter;
I am producing some portion of an article regarding this issue written by Mr. Yedip Yuksel. Please read this very carefully.
“SOUL DOES NOT APPEAR WITH CONCEPTION
According to the Quran "a new creature" is created after certain stages of development.
Here are two verses that summarize this evolution:
“O people, if you have any doubt about resurrection, (remember that) we created you from dust, and subsequently from a tiny drop (sperm), which turns into a hanging (embryo), then it becomes a fetus that is formed or unformed. . “.(22:5).
”Then we developed the drop into a hanging (embryo), then developed the hanging (embryo) into a bite-size (fetus), then created the bite-size (fetus) into bones, then covered the bones with flesh, then produced a new creature. Most blessed is God, the best Creator”. (23:14)
The later verse, in particular, gives more detail about the stages of creation in the uterus. From the above two verses we get a very clear picture of those stages:
1. Sperm
2. Embryo
3. Bite-size fetus (approximately two inches)
a. Formation of bones
b. Formation of flesh
4. Finally, a new creature
It is obvious that "a new creature" does not come into existence with conception.
Embryo, as an evolving biological organism, is not considered as a person. After a certain point in fetal stage soul (personality) emerges.
When is the time of that crucial point?
Verse 46:15 tells us that the total period for both pregnancy (Haml), and nursing (Fesaal) is 30 months.
“We enjoined the human being to honor his parents. His mother bore him arduously, gave birth to him arduously, her bearing him and until his weaning takes thirty months. . .” (46:15)
Verse 2:233 tells us the MAXIMUM nursing period as two FULL years, that is, 24 months.
“Divorced mothers shall nurse their infants two full years, if the father wishes to complete the nursing . . .”(2:233)
Therefore, from the above two verses we learn that the pregnancy period for a person is 30-24 = 6 months. We know that a normal pregnancy period is approximately 9 months, or more accurately 266 days or 38 weeks. (Rules and examples are based on normal or common cases.)
In order to find the precise time of evolving fetus to person, we should express pregnancy period in terms of days: 6 months are equal to 180 days. Thus, the period of pregnancy that is not considered as bearing soul is 266-180=86 days. Therefore, under cross-light of the Quranic verses we may conclude that the fetus does not have soul, or personhood until 86 days after conception.
So, Embryo is NOT considered as a "person" before 12 weeks in the uterus (46:15 and 2:233).
This Quranic information about the process of creation, I believe, is a mercy from God Almighty who knows the trauma and dilemma of victims of rape and incest.
Now you shall accept this information or reject it.
[17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
QUOTE (Zulfee): - Suppose I (Zulfee) am the chief executive of some institution. My subordinates are bound to obey me as the chief executive only and never as Zulfee to obey me what I personally command them to do every other task everywhere. It is very simple.
>>> Actually, Mr Zulfee wants to say that his subordinates are bound to obey him as Chief Executive not as Mr Zulfee as we are bound to obey Muhammad as Messenger(Rasul) not as a person Muhammad (Personal command of Muhammad). But you people don’t want to understand this simple thing and you are trying to discard his argument by hook or by crook. I again say nowhere in the Qur’an it is said “Obey Allah & Obey Muhammad”. Always it is said “Obey Allah & Obey Messenger”.
Samsher Ali. India.
Edited by: ibrahim on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 6:17 AM |
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Loveall
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 8:43 PM
AA
QUOTE: - >>> How could you conclude that prophet Muhammad told this hadis? Imam Muslim born more or less than 200 years after the death of prophet Muhammad and he collected hadith from various sources more than 215-230 years after the death of Prophet, then how could you say with certainty that those who had told the hadith to him were truthful?
I have mentioned as read the Hadith otherwise I do not know about his work but can only comment on the basis of the common sense. If you say more or less 200 years after the death of the Prophet (peace be upon him), I give you an example. Suppose the period between someone’s date of birth and that of the grandfather of one’s father is more or less 200 years then although many decades passed the gap in the generation does not seems to be too much i.e. between someone and the grandfather of one’s father and this grandfather might be one of the companions of the Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him). I mean to say that the maximum information transferred from his grandfather or the grandfather of his father and similarly the grandfathers of other people, may be right Or I mean to say there is not much gap of the generations.
QUOTE: - 2ndly, where in this hadis it is said that man is created after 40 days’?
I found from the post by oosman dated Saturday, April 23, 2005 at the following link:
http://www.studying-islam.org/forum/topic.aspx?topicid=1405&lang=&forumid=1
QUOTE: - Embryo, as an evolving biological organism, is not considered as a person. After a certain point in fetal stage soul (personality) emerges. When is the time of that crucial point?
According to the human Embryology, the EMBRYO is the stage BETWEEN FOURTH AND EIGHTH (between 28 and 56 days) weeks of pregnancy.
It is usually around fifth week when heart is developed and starts beating to show the SIGNS OF LIFE. AFTER EIGHTS WEEKS till delivery it is called the FOETUS.
It must be remembered that in THE EMBRYONIC PERIOD (between 28 and 56 days) the different organs are developed while in THE FOETAL PERIOD the organs only grow in size till delivery.
How can you interpret the period between 28 and 56 days and around the fifth week of pregnancy when heart is developed and starts beating to show the signs of life? Is there any relation to 40 or as you said 50 days?
QUOTE: - >>> Actually, Mr Zulfee wants to say that his subordinates are bound to obey him as Chief Executive not as Mr Zulfee as we are bound to obey Muhammad as Messenger (Rasul) not as a person Muhammad (Personal command of Muhammad).
You are looking only the merits not the demerits of this example. Does any merit supersede the demerits? |
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Zulfee
USA
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Posted - Monday, September 5, 2005 - 1:43 AM
Wonderful!!!
The people not understanding the simple example of chief executive are claiming to understand the whole noble Qura’n.
If we see 33:21, of course Mohammad is exemplar for us but the noble Qura’n doesn’t forbid us to adapt good habits of any other person not only Mohammad. I hope this new lesson may help more. |
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sksamsherali
INDIA
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Posted - Monday, September 5, 2005 - 10:52 AM
Salam brother,
QUOTE: - I mean to say that the maximum information transferred from his grandfather or the grandfather of his father and similarly the grandfathers of other people, may be right Or I mean to say there is not much gap of the generations.
>>>Hadith were collected more than 215-230 year after the death of Prophet and inspite of that you say there is not much gap between the death of Prophet and collected hadith!!! What a beautiful opinion brother. I am giving an example here;
‘suppose any one delivered a statement to a congregation. After few days’ if you ask any one of them who heard the statement to tell this, they can not tell the statement accurately’. Please try if you are not agreed.
When examined rationally, we are unable to provide any kind of divine proof, on hadith. As they have travelled orally to us through numerous lips. For example, I heard it from Zaid, who heard it from Omar, he got it from Bakr, he listened it from Khalid, he listened it from Asghar, who listened from Akbar. So any statement, having been through so many channels will neither be knowledge nor witness, nor can it become conviction.
Let us say an individual, with whom I am acquainted, illustrates a story to me. I can decide, on the basis of my opinions that I formed about him, whether what he decided is correct or not. But if he says that he heard it from Zaid, in that case, since Zaid is not known to me, I am devoid of any standard by which I could decide, how far and to what extent it is correct. Now when he says that Zaid heard it from Imran, then he also, having no standards to judge from, cannot measure the truth in the story. Therefore statements that have been transmitted orally, through so many individuals, shall lose their verity between the teller and the trusted. We can build history, but not the structure of Deen upon these statements. History is only speculation, but Deen demands conviction, which is rarely to be found in traditions,
QUOTE: - I found from the post by oosman dated Saturday, April 23, 2005 at the following link:
>>> This hadis does not say this I had shown you earlier.
QUOTE: - How can you interpret the period between 28 and 56 days and around the fifth week of pregnancy when heart is developed and starts beating to show the signs of life? Is there any relation to 40 or as you said 50 days?
>>> I have said about this matter. You have the right to accept or reject it.
QUOTE: - Actually, Mr Zulfee wants to say that his subordinates are bound to obey him as Chief Executive not as Mr Zulfee as we are bound to obey Muhammad as Messenger (Rasul) not as a person Muhammad (Personal command of Muhammad).
>>> The Qur’an exactly says this brother. Nowhere in the Qur’an it is said we should obey Muhammad(even in his lifetime) rather it is said we must obey the messenger. Whatever may be, how could you obey Muhammad now when he is dead?
The Qur’an poses a number of questions related to hadith. By considering them, God willing, we can put the question of authenticity in it’s proper perspective.
Among the questions the Qur’an poses in relation to hadith are:
"In which hadith after this will they believe?" (al-A`araaf [7]:185).
"These are God’s revelations we recite to you in truth. Then, in which hadith after God and His revelations will they believe?" (al-Jatheya [45]:6).
We understand the importance of these questions from yet another question posed in the Qur’an:
"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law and judgment when He is the One who has sent down the Book to you in detail?" (al-An`am [6]:114).
Also,
"What is wrong with you? How do you judge? Do you have another book which you study?" (al-Qalam [68]:35-36).
These are the real questions that deserve to be the central focus in the discussions about hadith. If we answer these questions in the negative (i.e. "No, I shall not." and "None."), then we see that the question of authenticity does not merely become secondary-it becomes moot.
If we seek only God and His revelations as a source of law and guidance, and do not believe in any hadith other than God’s revelations, it makes no difference if a hadith is authentic, or not. The Qur’an does not ask if hadith is authentic. The Qur’an asks if it is "other than God and His revelations." Even if we have absolute proof that a hadith came from the messenger, even if we may have heard it directly from the lips of the messenger, with our own ears, it is still "other than God and His revelations." Therefore, in light of 6:114 and 45:6 it is invalid as a source of law and guidance.
Not only are hadith, even authentic hadith, invalid as a source of law and guidance, they can be a source of misguidance. It is obvious that hadith with negative content, such as those that call for stoning adulterers, are a source of misguidance. But what about hadith with positive content?
Mainstream Muslims of all schools of thought insist that hadith are necessary for a number of reasons. Among the most important reasons, is that without hadith we cannot properly understand the Qur’an. Hadith, they say, shed light on the Qur’an. But God tells us that the Qur’an is light (4:174, 42:52). Can the hadith shed light on the Qur’an which is light?
Can the moon shed light on the sun? No, for the moon only reflects the light cast by the sun. Likewise, any light in found in any hadith from the messenger is no more than a reflection of the light in the Qur’an.
The moon is only visible when our side of the earth is turned away from the sun. When the sun is above us, the moon is no longer visible. But if the moon moves between us and the sun, we find ourselves in the darkness of an eclipse. During an eclipse, the moon which reflects the light of the sun when we are turned away from the sun, now cuts us off from the light of the sun.
For a believer, the Qur’an is as the sun which never sets. Hadith, any and all hadith, are as the moon. If we turn toward the hadith, we turn away from the Qur’an. If we let the hadith come between us and the Qur’an, we will find ourselves in the darkness of a spiritual eclipse, cut off from the light of the Qur’an.
Samsher Ali, India.
Edited by: ibrahim on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 6:32 AM |
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karime
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 2:36 PM
Quote: My question was ‘why people destroyed the original Qur’an, which Prophet Muhammad had dictated/written by his own hand’?
>>> I do not know any ones mind of approach why they had destroyed it, but I ask was the preservation of Holy Quran depended upon only the hand written book of Muhammad (s.a), where as He ( Muhammad s.a) left no stone unturned in the regard of Preaching Islam & Holy Quran to the every corner of Arabia, and when time came they (People) took help from every one collectively and thus this Holy Book came again into its ORIGINAL FORM. This is an Extra Ordinary Example of Allah to collect HIS book from HIS own people.
Quote: Its preservation has been proved to us by mathematical discoveries of the Qur’an but many could not under stand it. Since the revelation of the Qur’an until today there have been several attempts made to tamper with the Mos-haf. God told us in the Qur’an that the people will try to tamper with the Scripture so people think it is from God (3:78).
[3:78] Among them are those who twist their tongues to imitate the scripture, that you may think it is from the scripture, when it is not from the scripture, and they claim that it is from GOD, when it is not from GOD. Thus, they utter lies and attribute them to GOD, knowingly.
>>> I again and again said that you change the sense of verses, the best example is above verse (3:78), which is quoted by you, and ITS MEANING IS NOT SO AS U MENTIONED TO TEMPER/CHANGE THE SCRIPTURE BUT this suits you well, that VERSES ARE THE SAME OF HOLY QURAN but THEIR TONGUE CHANGES ITS (VERSES) SENSE OF MEANING.
I surprise some times even you DO NOT KNOW WHERE THE VERSES SUITS THEIR MEANING AND RIGHT PLACEMENT TO QUOTE? HOW YOU DARE TO APPLY SUCH A BIG CLAIM AGAINST THE HOLY QURAN’S IDEA OF BELEIVING.
My Quote:- Allah did not divide or give party names i.e Shia, Sunni, Bralvi…..etc, WE HAVE MADE OUR SELF THESE.
YOUR QUOTE: Then you are looser brother. You are not belong to Messenger
>>> you did not understand brother, what I mean to say, I again say that the main source of all these parties is to obey Allah (which you also claim) but there is some contradictions among themselves to understand Allah’s Obeying as we have with you, but ALL THESE PUT THIER NAMES BECAUSE OF THEIR DIFFERENT SENSE OF UNDERSTANDING, AS WE HAVE WITH YOU,
you also belong to a party whether you put your name or not BUT PEOPLE WILL PUT YOU SOMETHING.( I think they have put something but I do not know exactly). This is a reality you accept it or not…
Quote: Moreover, suppose you are sunni. Do you not read salah according to your sunni company i.e. do you not read Juhr or Asr Salat in maintaining total silence? If yes, why? Please show a reference from the Qur’an in support of your opinion. If no, then how you read?
>>> I will give reply of this soon…..
Quote: So if you are a Sunnni, Shia ….etc. then you are not believer.
>>> any reference from the Holy Quran that those who are sunni & shia are not believers…where as believing source is Allah and all these gather at the same centre as they are claiming so and you also claiming so….
Quote: Thus, the condition is evident that Muhammad the man, unlike Muhammad the messenger, shall be obeyed ONLY IF HE IS RIGHT.
>>> Allah informed people step by step when and where he was right or wrong to be followed….
Quote: Neither Jesus, nor Muhammad, want to be idolized. Their sole function was to preach the worship of GOD ALONE.
>>> I think you want to say obeying of Muhammad (s.a) is Idolizing, but I want to tell you that there is a BIG IDOL HIDDEN IN YOUR HEART THAT STOPS YOU TO OBEY HIM AND YOUR ARE PROSTRATED BEFORE YOUR THAT BIG HEART IDOLIZING IDOL.
Quote: Hadith & Sunna advocates claim that Hadith & Sunna are needed to explain Quran.
>>> how would you apply teaching of Holy Quran in your life with your own whims ? or will take help of any one else……….who will be he?
Quote: Almighty Allah select him as messenger and also prophet, that does not mean he used his personal sayings for judging amongst the men. Was he?
>>> if Allah gives him authority to spread its teaching UNDER HIS (ALLAH) OWN CONTROL AND ARGUE HIM (MUHAMMAD) WHERE HE IS RIGHT OR WHERE HE IS WRONG TO EASTABLISH AN EQUAL SOCIETY FOR THE MAN BY THE MAN.
QUOTE: Who is your Judge brother. Is it Hadith?
>>> You prove hadith wrong, and can also give your own idea of understanding in the regard of any quranic teaching, it is allowed to you. If you are right according to Quran. Quran is an open book to all, every one has right to know and understand it. And you know main PURPOSE OF TEACHING OF QURAN IS TO MAINTAIN OR RUN AN EQUAL SYSTEM AROUND THE WORLD AND THIS ONLY CAN BE DONE WHEN ALL COME TO GATHER AT A CENTRAL PLATEFORM ARGUEING WITH THEIR BEST. This is a fact…you accept it or not……
QUOTE: [5:43] WHY DO THEY ASK YOU TO JUDGE AMONG THEM, WHEN THEY HAVE THE TORAH, CONTAINING GOD'S LAW, AND THEY CHOSE TO DISREGARD IT? They are not believers.
In the above verse Almighty Allah told that it was not required for them( Jews) to ask Muhammad for judging among them when they have the God’s revelations e.g. Torah.
>>> AN other example of WRONG PLACEMENT OF VERSE AND ITS SENSE .
Quote: Same question you repeated again & again. Do you think that your hadith speak & judge itself for you
>>> Again you failed to give any satisfying answer and asked me a counter question, I already told you that if you dare to deny or reject history, then carry on and prove it with your own statement or sense of idea in the regard of applying Quranic Teachings in a life, Remember Quranic teaching’s main purpose is to run an equal system and not this that these are the Quranic verses and we have only to read these…. if you are right…
Quote: Is everyone free to follow another person or take that person as a judge according to Qur’an?
>>> No brother, Therefore it is said to follow a messenger’s teaching of Quran to provide an equally system otherwise if EVERY ONE FOLLOW ACCORDING TO OWN WHIMS THIS WORLD WOULD BE NO MORE, and ALLAH WANTED TO RUN AN EQUAL SYSTEM, AND SO A PROPHET CHOSE BY HIM OWN TO TEACH HIS TEACHING TO EVERY MAN BY A MAN…..
SEE:
(4:51) When it is said to them: "COME TO WHAT ALLAH HATH REVEALED, and TO THE MESSENGER": Thou seest the Hypocrites avert their faces from thee in disgust.
(33:36) And no Muslim man or woman has any right in the affair, when Allah and His Noble Messenger have decreed a command regarding it; and whoever does not obey the command of Allah and His Noble Messenger, has indeed clearly gone very astray.
(4:65) But no, by the Lord, THEY CAN HAVE NO (REAL) FAITH, until they make THEE JUDGE IN ALL DISPUTES BETWEEN THEM, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.
(4:59) O ye who believe! OBEY ALLAH, AND OBEY THE MESSENGER, and Those Charged With Authority Among You. IF YE DIFFER IN ANYTHING AMONG YOURSELVES, refer it to ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER, if ye do believe in ALLAH AND THE LAST DAY: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.
Here you would know slightly the difference between WORSHIP & OBEYING OF ALLAH. Specially Words “ if ye differ any thing among yourselves” shows that if we disagree each other THAN WE MUST TAKE THE PROBLEM TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSANGER TO BE SOLVED IN A GOOD MANNER.AND IF WE ONLY REFER TO HOLY QURAN, WE AGAIN SEE DISAGREEMENT AMONG OURSELVES TO UNDERTAND THE MEANING EQUALLY TO EACH OTHER, THEREFORE WITH THE CLOSE VIEW OF SUNNAH AND HIDITH with HISTORICAL EVEDENCE, WE WILL COME TO KNOW THE EXACT MEANING AT OUR BEST LEVEL OF HOLY QURAN AND if we do so THIS DOES NOT MEAN TO SAY THAT WE LOOK OTHER THAN QURAN AS MAIN SOURCE IS QURAN TO BE UNDERSTAND.
ONE THING MORE, no one alone would be able to know exact meaning of Holy Quran what Allah mean so for………therefore try your best to know from Quran itself and if you do not UNDERSTAND YOURSELF, DO APPLY SUNNAH & HADITH ALONG WITH HISTORY, ABOUT WHICH ALLAH ALSO SAYS PEOPLE TO LOOK.
Regards,
A.Karime, Jacobabad
Edited by: ibrahim on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 7:07 AM |
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karime
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 2:37 PM
A.A
Quote: If we seek only God and His revelations as a source of law and guidance, and do not believe in any hadith other than God’s revelations, it makes no difference if a hadith is authentic, or not. The Qur’an does not ask if hadith is authentic. The Qur’an asks if it is "other than God and His revelations." even if WE HAVE ABSOLUTE PROOF THAT A HADITH CAME FROM THE MESSENGER, even if WE MAY HAVE HEARD IT DIRECTLY FROM THE LIPS OF THE MESSENGER, WITH OUR OWN EARS, it is still "OTHER THAN GOD AND HIS REVELATIONS." THEREFORE, IN LIGHT OF 6:114 AND 45:6 IT IS INVALID AS A SOURCE OF LAW AND GUIDANCE.
>>> however, Here you sum up your entire energy & thought of believing with the above said statement that shows you have accepted that THERE ARE SAYINGS & DOINGS OF MUHAMMAD (S.A) existing in History, which we CALL HADITH & SUNNAH and these ( sayings & doings ) are also proved authentic in History.
BUT YOU SAY, Even if these are really of Muhammad (s.a) then this does not mean to say that we (you) have to follow these (sayings & doings) in any case, because these are OTHER THAN QURAN (written scripture)…….isn’t brother?
( I think you meant so……If I am not wrong).
If you said this in the beginning of this discussion, I think the mood of discussion would have been changed compare to what we have discussed above till now. Because problem with you was not that we have to prove how Hadith & Sunnah are proved or authentic in the History OR EVEN IF THERE IS A REFERENCE OF ANY QURANIC VERSE (according to our thought of view not you…be careful) that creates this image of (Hadith & Sunnah).
BUT PROBLEM WITH YOU IS THIS AND YOU ALSO PROVED BY SAYING THAT, that YOU WILL NOT ACCEPT/OBEY ANY WORD OR SAYING OR DOING OF MUHAMMAD OTHER THAN ANY QURANIC VERSES.
YOUR SOLE DUTY IS TO LISTEN QURAN FROM MUHAMMAD AND HAVE TO OBEY IT (QURAN) YOURSELF ACCORDINGLY…….isn’t Brother (if I am not wrong).
( I understood this point of your view in the beginning).
Therefore, I again and again asked you such kind of questions in this forum that relates to OBEY QURAN ACCORDING TO ONE’S OWN WISHES EVEN IF WE SEE MUHAMMAD DOING SOMETHING AFTER A REVALTION OF ANY VERSE FROM ALLAH ACCORDINGLY, because WHAT HE (Muhamamd s.a) WOULD DO OR WHAT HE SAYS, THIS ALL IS HIS OWN WHIMS AND OWN REFLECTION OF UNDERSTANDING IN THE REGARD OF VERSE, and THUS WE HAVE NOT TO FOLLOW THAT ACTIONS AND DOINGS, MAY HE BE (Muhammad s.a) WRONG, OR HE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO DO ACCORDING WHAT WE (YOU) UNDERSTAND ITS (VERSE) MEANING AND SENSE OF OBEYING, WHICH ALLAH MEANT SO…AND SO…isn’t brother? (If I m not wrong).
Therefore our main duty is to listen and obey according with our own understanding, this is ur believe ...........this is enough?
IF IT IS REALLY SO, THEN I AM VERY VERY CONFUSED WHY PEOPLE OF THAT TIME DID NOT DO SO……AND HISTORY ALSO DOES NOT SHOW ANY PROOF THAT THOSE PEOPLE USED TO OBEY QURAN ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN UNDERSTANDING……THE SENSE OF UNDERSTANDING OF PEOPLE WERE SUCH EQUAL TO EACH OTHER AND NO ONE FIND ANY CONTRADICTION TO EACH OTHER’S UNDERSTANDING.
Then I think those were very intelligent and WE, what happened to us, WHY WE ARE NOT ABLE TO UNDERSTAND MEANING OF A VERSE EQUALLY,
BUT THIS IS ALSO SURPRISING THAT MANY OF VERSES OF HOLY QURAN REFER TO THEIR (PAST PEOPLE) LESS UNDERSTANDING AND CHANGING SENSE OF VERSES RESPECTIVELY IN THOSE DAYS. WHAT IS THIS ALL?
You also accept that Prophet Muhammad (s.a) received INSPIRATION other than Quran, but according to you this is not essential any way for the religious source.
But I give a verse of Al-Quran (2:143), when Muhammad (s.a) received an inspiration of appointing Qibla, which he was used….. read carefully it, specially last lines….( THIS IS AN INSPIRATION OTHER THAN QURAN BUT WHAT ALLAH SAYS ABOUT PEOPLE WHO OBEY/DISOBEY (THIS INSPIRATION) SEE…..THIER FAITH DEPENDS UPON THIS INSPIRATION….OTHER THAN QURAN
(2:143) Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qibla to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (From the Faith). INDEED IT WAS (A CHANGE) MOMENTOUS, EXCEPT TO THOSE GUIDED BY ALLAH. And NEVER WOULD ALLAH MAKE YOUR FAITH OF NO EFFECT. For ALLAH IS TO ALL PEOPLE MOST SURELY FULL OF KINDNESS, MOST MERCIFUL.
did u understand how much obeying of this (INSPIRATION) OTHER THAN QURAN (informed by Allah) was essential THAT ALLAH ENCOURAGED THOSE PEOPLE AND MAKE THEIR FAITH UNEFFECTED BECAUSE OF BELEIVING/FOLLOWING MUHAMMAD’S GOTTEN INSPIRATION OTHER THAN QURAN.
Although this is enough not to argue with you AFTER your said statement “ if we seek……….Guiadance” yet I advise you to read Quran again carefully…
Fi’amanillah
A.karime, Jacobabad
Edited by: ibrahim on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 7:14 AM |
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ibrahim
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, September 9, 2005 - 6:33 AM
quote:
Quote: My question was ‘why people destroyed the original Qur’an, which Prophet Muhammad had dictated/written by his own hand’?
For God Sake plz Tell me WHO says that People Destroyed the ORIGINAL Quran???. Muslim Ummah has Diffirent Opinion about IT. we Believe that The Quran that we have in our HANDS is the SAME that was Given by Alah to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) & It has arrived in OUR hands with the CONTINUTY of the WHOLE UMMAH known as TWATUR & IJMAA'. |
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sksamsherali
INDIA
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Posted - Monday, September 12, 2005 - 11:34 AM
Salam,
I told in this forum earlier, how the original Qur’an was destroyed. Please read my earlier posts regarding the subject.
Do you really think that the original Qur’an which Prophet Muhammad had written by his own hand or dictated is existing now? If yes, please tell me where can we found this original Qur’an.
Samsher |
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