| Author | Topic |
sksamsherali
INDIA
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 Posted - Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 8:52 AM 
Salam to all,
Reply to the web link http://www.monthly-renaissance.com/JulSunn2y6.htm
Quote:- The First Principal: Only that thing can be sunnah which is religious by nature and status.
REPLY :- Please tell him to give proof from the Qur’an, if he is able to, in support of his opinion. Rather Qur’an says that “those things are conjecture, which came from other than GOD and is regarded as religious source besides Qur’an.(4:82). Qur’an also condemns to take these as religious source(s). (6:114-115).
Quote:- The Qur’an is absolutely clear that the prophets of Allah were sent to deliver His religion.
REPLY :- Qur’an is absolutely clear that Prophet Muhammad did not to take anything as religious source besides IT(Qur’an).
Quote:- What was given to them in this capacity was religion, and thus it was only religion whose propagation they were liable to;
REPLY:- Only Qur’an was given(to Muhammad) in his prophetic capacity and nothing else, no sunnah, no ahadith….
Quote:- The Third Principle: It is known that the Prophet Muhammad has amputated the hands of thieves, stoned to death……..merely followed them.
REPLY :- Qur’an does not say us that the hands of thief must be amputated or stoned to death people for sexual misconduct or fought with people who deliberately denied the truth. Prophet did not follow them.
Quote:- Prayer, fasting, zakah, hajj and animal sacrifice are also mentioned in the Qur’an which has also made some corrections in them; however, it becomes evident from the Qur’an itself that these directives were initiated by Muhammad……Qur’an has ratified.
REPLY:- Muhammad did not revive or did not give any religious sanction to prayer, fasting, zakah, hajj. Muhammad was not any law maker. Muhammad just followed what Qur’an said to him to follow. The only law maker is The Almighty God Alone. The above practices are clearly mentioned in the Qur’an and Prophet only followed these, also “those practices are not Islamic, that are not mentioned in the Qur’an”.
Quote:- Only those things will be regarded as sunnah which are originally based on the words, practices or tacit approvals of the prophet………mentioned in it.
REPLY:- Sunnah means practice – Prophet Muhammad practiced only Qur’an and nothing else. Almighty Allah sent him to preach, to deliver the Qur’an. As a messenger he not only preached IT by his mouth but he practiced IT also. So Qur’an was his ONLY SUNNAH and nothing else.
Quote:- The Fourth Principle:- We know that the prophet while complying the directive…………….fasts of Ramadan.
REPLY:- What does mean to prayer here? If here prayer means Salat then I have objection because nowhere Qur’an says that prophet Muhammad offered optional salat besides obligatory ones – Qur’an also does not say that Muhammad fasted optionally besides the obligatory ones and regarding animal sacrifice, no question arises because animal sacrifice is the ritual of Hajj.
Quote:- The wudu(ablution) and ghusl(bathing) of the prophet………………not regarded as independent sunnah.
REPLY:- The steps of wudu(ablution) are clearly mentioned in the Qur’an and also how to observe it. But the present days’ muslims do not satisfy with these quranic directives. They add some steps to it and labeled them as prophetic sunnah. Ohh…… regarding ghusl, there is no particular directive in the Qur’an. It is also invented/fabricated sunnah.
Quote:- The Sixth Principle:
REPLY:- Only Qur’an should be recited during our salat. So no question raises regarding recitation of Darud, tashahood because it is a flagrant idol worship. Also aftger carefully reading of the verse(s) concerned, it can be known that salat ended with prostration and there is no ‘rak’at system’ in salat. So sitting in the qa’dah is not any sunnah of prophet.
Quote:- The Seventh Principle:
REPLY:- The only religious source is Qur’an(6:114-115). Muhammad was liable to communicate the Qur’an only(42:48, 13:40, 5:99, 21:10, 17:46, 25:30, 75:16-19).
The source of Qur’an was not the consensus of ummah. Qur’an was written down during the life time of prophet although not in one book. After the death of Muhammad, those were collected in one book, but the case of hadith & sunnah is different. Hadith and sunnah(which practiced now) were written long after the death of Muhammad.
Actually, these are the seven conjectures, which have no basis/support in the Qur’an.
Qur’an is the only religious source of Islam. If anything, yes anything we regard as religious source besides Qur’an, then it will be proved that we are doing shirk with Almighty Allah because we are not satisfied with the Qur’an only, Almighty Allah’s words, so we seek another source to complete the islam. Islam was completed with the revelation of Qur’an. So we should not require anything to further complete our religion, which has already been completed.
This is my understanding.
Samsher. |
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sksamsherali
INDIA
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Posted - Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 9:12 AM
Salam to all,
Note:
Some of the postings have been censored due to the inappropriate language like 'garbage'used for the work of teachers and scholars of Islam.
Even if we do not agree with their opinions, we must keep to the basic manners of interaction, and specially for the people who have worked hard in the field of studies, research and dissemination of religion.
REPLY:- Mr. Moderator does not anxious about those Sunni people who labeled/called others as ‘kafir’….. but concern about those people who called boldly garbage as garbage. How ridiculous!!! I know why Mr. Moderator says so, he does not want that any can say the TRUTH, the TRUTH about religion/islam i.e. ONLY QUR’AN and nothing else.
Mr. Modrator wants to stop the voice against their charised false teaching of hadith & sunnah(fabricated and falsely attributed to Prophet Muhammad).
Christian Missionaries are also worked hard in the field of studies, research and dissemination of Christianity, then why do you not believe on them???
In the same way Hindu Pandits are also doing the same thing. Mr. Moderator, what do you think about there activities, their hard work????? Hard work….  
Samsher. |
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raushan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 9:31 AM
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cares
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 1:28 PM
Sallam,
Quote: How can you repeat while the verse is for you people only.
Reply: No brother, this is ur understanding that u think so but to whom it fits do u have any confirmation in the regard, if yes then plz produce..
Quote: Why CAN NOT the ignorants or the idols worshippers understand the VERY SIMPLE difference between obey the messenger and obey Mohammad? This not understanding the very simple thing is because of the SEAL described in the verse.
Reply: Brother samsher has misinterupted the verse " obey allah and obey the messenger".
see the following,
Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful. {157}
Do u not see here that obedience of Muhammad is mentioned first seperately and later it is said to follow the light (Quran) seperately in the end.
if both are same i.e to follow messeger is to follow Quran, then Y Allah gave this verse seperately in the end.
Cares... |
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sksamsherali
INDIA
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Posted - Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 12:07 PM
Salam cares,
Quote: I agree if the context is so as I mentioned, but I consider prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as last messenger too, for the following reasons.
U know well brother, nowhere it is mentioned that “Quran” is last book of Allah, but yet we all consider it is last because of the following verses of holy Qura’n, (2:213, 57:25, 5:03, 33:40)
REPLY:- In your referred verse 2:213 Almighty Allah says that HE sent down the scriptures with the prophets. Also in some other verses HE says so.
Whenever God mentions prophethood in the Quran, He mentions scripture and sometimes wisdom. The association of prophethood and scripture cannot be missed except by those blocked by God from seeing the truth. The following are some examples (3:79, 6:89,29:27,45:16,57:26). That means Almighty Allah sent the scriptures with the prophet.
In 33:40 Almighty Allah says that Muhammad is the last prophet, that means no prophet will come and as no prophet will come then no scripture will also come as Almighty God sent scriptures only through the prophets. So Qur’an is the last scripture. But not in the case of messenger as you claimed. You did not consider the verse 3:81 before giving your opinion. The verse clearly says that ‘After all prophets A Messenger will come. Also in some other verses Almighty Allah says that He sends the messenger as and when HE feels necessary.
Therefore, after considering all verses it is clear that Muhammad was not the last messenger.
Now come to your 2nd referred verse 57:25. This verse says that Almighty Allah sent the scriptures with the messenger. Brother All prophets were messengers and Almighty Allah sent scriptures through the prophets, so this verse says about the messenger who were also prophets. You can’t come any conclusion regarding some subject by reading only one verse. In this particular case You should read 57:25 along with 3:81 and verse 3:81 it clearly says after all prophets a messenger will come TO CONFIRM THE EXISTING SCRIPTURES, that means he will not bring any new scripture, he will only confirm the existing scriptures.
Therefore, it is proved that Almighty Allah does not send scriptures through all messengers. Also this verse(57:25) does not say about ALL MESSENGERS.
1. No both have not been given books e.g. 3:81. No the terms prophets and messenger are not same thing.
Perhaps one of the strongest indications in the Quran that the words prophet and messenger do not have the same meaning, is found in the following verse:
"We did not send before you any MESSENGER NOR A PROPHET, without having the devil interfere in his wishes. GOD then nullifies what the devil has done. GOD perfects His revelations. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise." 22:52
If the words prophet and messenger had the same meaning God would not be saying "MESSENGER NOR A PROPHET" ...... would He ? Had the two words had exactly the same meaning , then mentioning one of them would have been sufficient.
2. Wrong. Messenger come to guide the mankind and Almighty Allah sends them as and when HE fells necessary
God reveals the contents of the scripture according to His Infinite Wisdom. Some matters are kept hidden for an appointed time that God has ordained. God reveals some of these matters through messengers that he chooses.
"He is the Knower of the 'ghaib' (unseen); He does not reveal the ghaib to anyone. Only to a messenger that He chooses, does He reveal from the past and the future, specific news. This is to ascertain that they have delivered their Lord's messages. He is fully aware of what they have. He has counted the numbers of all things." 72:26-28
Many who corrupt God's truth to uphold their own idolatry are guilty of deliberately hiding important issues inside the scripture from the people. God sends messengers to expose the idolatry of such people and to reveal these prime issues:
"O people of the scripture, OUR MESSENGER HAS COME TO YOU TO PROCLAIM FOR YOU MANY THINGS YOU HAVE CONCEALED IN THE SCRIPTURE, and to pardon many other transgressions you have committed. A beacon has come to you from God, and a profound scripture." 5:15
Messengers are also sent to give good news to the believers and also warn the disbelievers:
"We do not send the messengers except as DELIVERERS OF GOOD NEWS, AS WELL AS WARNERS." 6:48
3. No prophet will come but messenger will come e.g. 3:81
Your conclusion is whimsical/baseless which has no reference in the Qur’an.
I shall InshAllah give my reply regarding your other whims. Now I am very busy. Till then good bye….
Samsher. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, January 26, 2007 - 4:39 AM
Brother Cares
Perdition overtake both hands of Abu Lahab, and he will perish. His wealth and what he earns will not avail him. He shall soon burn in fire that flames, And his wife, the bearer of fuel,Upon her neck a halter of strongly twisted rope.(Sura No.111)
This sura is reveiled for one of the uncle of Prophet(pbuh).In this sura Allah has told that Abu Lahab is going to burn in the hailfire.Some of Abu Lahab's friends asked him to accept the Islam and by doing this infact you proof these revelition wrong and so do the Prophet(pbuh) him self.Because once you will repent and will become Muslim then how could you will send to hellfire by Allah.
There was a point which Kuffar-e-Makkah want to let him understand but when ever they say to him this thing he always refuses and say why I become muslim I will never.
After this sura reveild, he live seven years but Allah not let him understand this point and he deied as a non-believer.
So the hidaya is always given by Allah Him Self, we only can do our efforts.We can not made some one understand any thing even which is very visible from the verses of Quran,unless Allah wish it as well. |
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cares
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 9:09 AM
Sallam,
Quote:I shall InshAllah give my reply regarding your other whims. Now I am very busy. Till then good bye.
Reply: Surely u will be busy in finding/collecting R.K's more articals/stuffs in suport of ur own whims, I also will try to reply u in a better way If I know ur complete replies ...Inshalllah
Bye..
Cares... |
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cares
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 9:28 AM
Sallam
Brother Usmani,
Quote: So the hidaya is always given by Allah Him Self, we only can do our efforts.We can not made some one understand any thing even which is very visible from the verses of Quran,unless Allah wish it as well.
Reply: Brother u r absolutely right, I agree too, but this should not be only one side efforts to make OTHERS understand, one should always be ready to understand himself too, if he sees himself wrong/suspect to be wrong.
This is y every one should do efforts to know the best and make others to know this too, and when all reach a stage (CONCEPT/BELEIVE) they should apply, they will be responsible of that..I appreciate ur comments in this forum,
Thanks,
Cares... |
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hkhan
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Sunday, January 28, 2007 - 9:44 AM
may we also take this opportunity to extend our warm welcome to Cares :)assalamu alaykum. we hope you enjoy your studies and discussions with us insh'Allah
Quote:Qur’an is the only religious source of Islam. If anything, yes anything we regard as religious source besides Qur’an, then it will be proved that we are doing shirk with Almighty Allah because we are not satisfied with the Qur’an only, Almighty Allah’s words, so we seek another source to complete the islam. Islam was completed with the revelation of Qur’an. So we should not require anything to further complete our religion, which has already been completed.
The fact needs serious consideration that he source of religion untill the Day of Judgement will now remain the Qura'n and the teachings of its bringer, Muhammad sws, which have been guarded just as Qura'n itself as Sunnah which was preceded by Qura'n as Sunna t e Ibrahimi and forwarded by Muhammad sws after purification; and Hadith literature supports, mind us just Supports, does not add anything, to the teachings from these two basic sources. This is the true Message of Islam which again stands in the need of presenting in its original form and this is what Studying Islam and its sister sites/projects endeavour for. May God help them in this nearly solo effort.
The discussions can go on endlessly but these sites offer a lot to the true seekers of Truth who spare time to read and understand.
This site has provided a space for interaction in order to understand the religion. All interested participants are welcome to express their views, but they must be supported by evidence and logic because you will find the same rule being followed by the site scholars in all the studies offered here.
ps some of the sections from Jan issue of monthly Renaissance as follows:
And [O Prophet!] We have revealed to you the Book with the truth in confirmation of the Book before it, and standing as a guardian over it. Therefore, give judgement among men according to the guidance revealed by God and do not yield to their whims by swerving from the truth revealed to you. (5:48)
Theme of the Qur’an
The theme of the Qur’an is Muhammad’s indhar. Every page of the Qur’an speaks of this reality. The reason for this is that the Qur’an has not merely been revealed as an amalgam of shari‘ah and hikmah, it has also been revealed to become the real means of the Prophet’s indhar to his people:
وَأُوحِيَ إِلَيَّ هَذَا الْقُرْآنُ لأُنذِرَكُم بِهِ وَمَن بَلَغَ (19:6)
And this Qur’an has been revealed to me that I may warn you through it and all whom it may reach. (6:19)
Historical Background
The Qur’an must be understood in the background in which it was revealed. According to established history, it was revealed to Muhammad (sws) in the sixth century in Arabia. It is evident from this history that Muhammad (sws) explained the Qur’an wherever and whenever a need arose, and so did the scholars among his Companions and the scholars and researchers after them. This history of the Qur’an is an established fact and demands the following from its students: (see details on the link http://renaissance.com.pk/JanQur2y7.htm)
Edited by: hkhan on Sunday, January 28, 2007 9:46 AM |
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raushan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Sunday, January 28, 2007 - 10:38 AM
quote:
Brother Cares
Perdition overtake both hands of Abu Lahab, and he will perish. His wealth and what he earns will not avail him. He shall soon burn in fire that flames, And his wife, the bearer of fuel,Upon her neck a halter of strongly twisted rope.(Sura No.111)
This sura is reveiled for one of the uncle of Prophet(pbuh).In this sura Allah has told that Abu Lahab is going to burn in the hailfire.Some of Abu Lahab's friends asked him to accept the Islam and by doing this infact you proof these revelition wrong and so do the Prophet(pbuh) him self.Because once you will repent and will become Muslim then how could you will send to hellfire by Allah.
There was a point which Kuffar-e-Makkah want to let him understand but when ever they say to him this thing he always refuses and say why I become muslim I will never.
After this sura reveild, he live seven years but Allah not let him understand this point and he deied as a non-believer.
So the hidaya is always given by Allah Him Self, we only can do our efforts.We can not made some one understand any thing even which is very visible from the verses of Quran,unless Allah wish it as well.
very valid and intelligent point brother usmani,
many thnx for sharing.plz give the reference as well.
wassalam |
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raushan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Sunday, January 28, 2007 - 11:01 AM
quote:
Sallam,
Quote:I shall InshAllah give my reply regarding your other whims. Now I am very busy. Till then good bye.
Reply: Surely u will be busy in finding/collecting R.K's more articals/stuffs in suport of ur own whims, I also will try to reply u in a better way If I know ur complete replies ...Inshalllah
Bye..
Cares...
cares,
I really appreciate the hardwork done by brother ali on this forum to prove his point of view.
since he is busy now ,lets discuss this topic from a different angle.
why these people (quran only group)has so much enthusiasm and zeal in denouncing Hadith.
We have people of the same thinking earlier also but they never start propagating their views by declaring others as idolators or kafirs.If we go through their(new rejecters of hadith) literature it appears as if their objective is nothing but to oppose hadith only.
I ve read abt some groups in west like "God Alone"following their religion on similar patterns.Is it their background before islam which works or are they seeking refuge from the questions raised by free minds ?
may you shed some light on it.
wassalam |
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Zulfee
USA
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Posted - Monday, January 29, 2007 - 7:45 AM
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Zulfee
USA
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Posted - Monday, January 29, 2007 - 5:00 PM
quote:
So the hidaya is always given by Allah Him Self, we only can do our efforts.We can not made some one understand any thing even which is very visible from the verses of Quran,unless Allah wish it as well.
Excellent!!! You are defining yourself very well!!!!!
The corrupted community not understanding the very simple difference between Obey the messenger and Obey Mohammad can not understand further because of the shields placed by God on their hearts, ears and eyes etc. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 2:04 AM
| Yes zulfi, according to you, of myself and most of the people on this board, their hearts are sealed, they are deaf dumb and blind, they will not see the light. But you, your royal holiness, you highly esteemed and knowledgeable one, you are the among the few of God's chosen people who see the light, who grasp the true meaning of God's words, and that gives you the higher status of being able to brand others as infidels, mutes, idiots and what not. Oh! for so long I was lost, now I realize that you have the true understanding, you'r holiness - NOT! |
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aboosait
INDIA
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Posted - Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 4:43 AM
quote:
and that gives you the higher status of being able to brand others as .....
So the moderator also permits him to brand others as infidels, mutes, idiots and what not?
same with him in another section of this forum.
'main rowoon ya hansoon,............... karoontho kya karoon? |
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Zulfee
USA
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Posted - Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 2:11 PM
quote:
Reply: No brother, this is ur understanding that u think so but to whom it fits do u have any confirmation in the regard, if yes then plz produce.
A very immature question!!! With best intentions, again go through whole of this forum from first to the last page, you will do find the solid confirmation.
quote:
Do u not see here that obedience of Muhammad is mentioned first seperately and later it is said to follow the light (Quran) seperately in the end. if both are same i.e to follow messeger is to follow Quran, then Y Allah gave this verse seperately in the end.
What a whimsical and baseless statement is!!! Bring the single verse of Noble Qura’n, which support Obeying Mohammad, which is NOT same as Obeying the messenger. The difference between Obeying Mohammad and Obeying the messenger is very simple but the SHIELD of God prevents you to understand. Afala Taqelun?
quote:
So the hidaya is always given by Allah Him Self, we only can do our efforts.We can not made some one understand any thing even which is very visible from the verses of Quran,unless Allah wish it as well.
WOW!!! You are defining yourself very well!!!!!
The corrupted community not understanding the very simple difference between Obey the messenger and Obey Mohammad CAN NOT understand further because of the SHIELDS [17:45,46] placed by God upon their hearts, ears and eyes etc.
quote:
There was a point which Kuffar-e-Makkah want to let him understand but when ever they say to him this thing he always refuses and say why I become muslim I will never.
Because he could not leave the religion of his forefathers like the so called muslims of today can not leave the fabricated hadith based ideas of their forefathers.
usmani790, Cares, hkhan, raushan and the others……
As said by sksamshirali, your conclusions and beliefs are absolutely whimsical and baseless, because of having NO reference in the the Qur’an.
[69:40-47]This (Quran) is the utterance of an honorable messenger. It is not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe. Nor is it the utterance of a soothsayer; rarely do you take heed. A revelation from the Lord of the universe. HAD HE EVER UTTERED ANY OTHER RELIGIOUS UTTERANCES (attributed to us), we would have punished him severely, then we would have stopped the revelation to him (fired him). None of you could have protected him against us.
These very clear verses teach us that Muhammad was forbidden from uttering any religious teachings beside Qura’n. The strength of the Arabic text cannot be fully translated to English. But the powerful expressions leave NO doubt whatsoever that the Prophet's sole function was to "DELIVER" Qura’n, the whole Quran, and NOTHING but Qura’n.
quote:
Many who corrupt God's truth to uphold their own idolatry are guilty of deliberately hiding important issues inside the scripture from the people. God sends messengers to expose the idolatry of such people and to reveal these prime issues:
EXCELLENT!!!, AGREED!!!!!!!!!!
quote:
why these people (quran only group)has so much enthusiasm and zeal in denouncing Hadith.
It is the open decision of Allah and his messenger NOT anyone else to REFUTE the Hadith, its inventors and the followers.
[6: 114,115]Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He revealed THIS BOOK FULLY DETAILED? The word of your Lord is COMPLETE in truth & justice.
[39: 45]When God ALONE is advocated, the hearts of those who do not believe in the hereafter shrink with aversion. But when idols are mentioned besides Him, they rejoice.
[7: 40]Surely, those who do not believe our revelations, and are too arrogant to heed them, the gates of the sky never open for them, nor will they ever enter Paradise until the camel passes through the needle's eye. We thus requite the guilty. |
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