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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 10:52 AM 
AOA Henna
It is sad that you and those responsible for this site still keep insisting on this unwritten concept of sunna. Can you please
(1) Provide any evidence from the Quran to prov the existance of this sunna
(2) quote:
When we go through the Sunan of the Holy Prophet (sws),we immediately discover that the Sunnah wholly consists of practical matters (acts to be done). It does not include any matters of faith, belief, religious concepts, opinions,interpretations of the Qur’an, background of the Qur’anic revelation, history etc.
If this is the basis of the so called Sunna. Then consider that God in the Quran states that the Prophets duty was only to convey the Quran. If you accept this verse then can you please explain why are you are propagating alleged actions of the prophet which are not mentioned in the Quran.
(3) Let us for a moment accept this extra Quranic sunna arguement. Then how do you account for differences in the method of various muslim sects in performing prayer etc & also how do you know which sects methods to follow.
I think this notion is another dangerous corruption being introduced into Islam.
Regards |
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ibrahim
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 11:11 AM
quote:
Salam brother Ibrahim,
I believe that it is ALMIGHTY GOD, WHO TOOK THE RESPONSIBILITY TO PRESERVE THE MESSAGE(QUR’AN) TILL THE END OF THE WORLD AND IN THIS WAY THE QUR’AN REACHED TO US AND WILL BE REACHED TO FUTURE GENERATIONS.
w Salam Brother Samsher
thanks for your post.
Dear, I'm afraid, I still have NO ANSWER to my simple Q despite your claims n I hope that readers of this Forum will agree with Me.
Plz look your Above quoted words. I too believe that "ALMIGHTY GOD HAVE TAKEN THE RESPONSIBILITY TO PRESERVE THE MESSAGE(QUR’AN) TILL THE END OF THE WORLD"
but
My Simple Q is/was "How Practically THIS has Happened in the PAST 1450 years HOW it'll Happen this till the LAST DAY"
Your Words"IN THIS WAY THE QUR’AN REACHED TO US AND WILL BE REACHED TO FUTURE GENERATIONS" do NOT SHOW what you want to say by saying "IN THIS (?) WAY ". Which WAY do you mean by saying "this way".
Plzzzzzz Give us FULL DETAIL of "that WAY".
OR
Let me Rephrase my Q 2day. Plz Tell Us that
"What Quran says about How it will REACH to ALL HUMAN BEING as WORD of GOD?" Plz Explain. |
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ibrahim
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 11:36 AM
quote:
This is your inner intention which you trying to disclose
Well ONLY ALLAH KNOWS ALL the "Inner Intentions" whether it's MINE or yours
quote:
R:- Smile. I have already replied. I did not run away.
Where is the Reply of My Q.? ... NO WHERE ... Smileees
quote:
R:- I think now you have seen this, if you have even one eye.
In Fact I've FOUR EYES but Still I CANNOT see THE REQUIRED answer.
hahaha
Bro. Samsher Plz Do NOT make us FOOL. I'm asking only ONE thing, almost from the DAY ONE, that
Do U believe that THIS Quran was Revealed to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)?
Do U believe that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is a person of more than 1400 years ago?
If your Answer is Yes to the Above TWO Qs. then my 3rd n LAST Q is:
How PRACTICALLY "THAT" Quran has Reached you n ME?
&
NOW it's your CHOICE to Give Answer of this Q from Quran (plz Do Refer If there is ANY) or from OUTSIDE Quran?
&
Let me REPEAT again that
"OUR discussion can MOVE to 2nd, 3rd ... Qs.
ONLY n ONLY If
I get any REAL answer of My 1st n the Most Important pt." |
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Rakhtal
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 5:14 PM
quote:
I again ask you some questions?
How may Rakaat you pray in Fajar and other prayers?
Did you recite “Darood Shareef” and “Ath a iat” in your prayers?
How you do “Wudu”?
How much you pay Zakat, What is basis of this calculation?
What are processes of Pilgrim (Hajj) according to you?
On what parameters do you believe that every answer (of these questions) assumed from some sources other than Quran is 100% correct????
quote:
Did all four Imams and ohte millions of nobel peoples who followed Sunanh and “Ahadith e Sahihah” were not pious according to you?
Yes, Anyone who believe in the religious sources other than Quran are NOT Muslims!!!
"Anyone who disregards the message of God most gracious, we appoint a devil to be his constant companion. The devils then divert them from the path, yet make them THINK that they are rightly guided." (43:36-37) |
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sksamsherali
INDIA
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Posted - Monday, May 21, 2007 - 12:35 PM
Brother Ibraheem,
My answer of your question is same as on15th May, 2007 i.e. “I have already replied to your question, but you did not like that or may be you did not want to understand my point, then what can I do brother??? I AM HERE TO GIVE THE REPLY OF QUESTIONS ACCORDING TO QUR’AN NOT ACCORDING TO PERSON’S WHIMS LIKE YOURS. So if you dislike my reply because of THIS DOES NOT FIT YOUR WHIMS, then I can’t do anything.”
You OPINED that Qur’an reached us through twatur, ijmaa BUT YOU COULD NOT YET BEEN ABLE TO GIVE ANY SINGLE REFERENCE FROM THE QUR’AN TILL DATE IN SUPPORT OF YOUR SAID WHIMSICAL OPINION. If you are able to give this, then InshAllah I shall accept your theory.
BUT
I told you several times that Qur’an was written down when it was revealed to the prophet and it was preserved by God till today OR It reached us THROUGH THE WAY/FORM OF PRESERVATION, ABOUT WHICH ALMIGHTY ALLAH HIMSELF TOOK THE RESPONSIBILITY AS HE TOOK TO PRESERVE THE BODY OF PHARAON(10:92). NO ONE CAN CLAIM THAT BODY OF PHARON REACHED US THROUGH THE TWATUR, IJMAA….!!! And in support of my above said opinion numerous times I have given proof from the qur’an. Once again I am giving here, which supports my opinion, but I know that at that time also you can’t see it ;
[15:9] Absolutely, we have revealed the reminder, and, absolutely, we will preserve it.
The above Quranic words prove that the Qur’an reached us through the preservation promised by God and not through the consensus of muslim ummah.
You tried to say Almighty Allah preserve the qur’an through the twatur, ijmaa…of muslim ummah and only through this way HE preserved the Qur’an. On this point I asked you a simple question which was “do you believe that ONLY because of your Twatur, Ijmaa, your Qur’an reached to you? OR do you believe/think that besides these two(twatur, Ijmaa), Qur’an could not be reached to you or can’t be reached to future generations???” which requires a simple answer i.e. ‘yes’ or ‘no’ but you also could not give that for fear of ……… I don’t know WHY DO YOU SO MUCH AFRAID OF MY EVERY QUESTION???
However, You can see many ancient documents, tablets and books in museums and special sections of libraries. They are preserved by human effort and technology for hundreds and even thousands of years and reached to us. For instance, Bukhari is a document, which has been well preserved for approximately 12 centuries and reached to us. Now can you claim that Bukhari Ahadith preserved by God through continuity, consensus??? How could you explain this??? After we have seen the Satanic nature of hadith and sectarian jurisprudence produced by our ancestors and so-called ulama, how can you expect us to trust them as the preservers of the Quran?
However, If I accept your theory for the sake of argument, yes remember I say here for the sake of argument i.e. qur’an reached us through continuity…… consensus, dose it mean that these two are our religious criterion? NO. Qur’an says us that IT Itself is the only criterion(25:1).
The followers of other religions (Jewish, Christians, Hindus…) use EXACTLY the same reason(like your continuity, consensus) to justify their fabricated lies about God and their religions.
So, how Qur’an reached us is not the subject of discussion here. The subject is WHETHER QUR’AN ONLY SHOULD BE TAKEN AS ONLY RELIGIOUS SOURCE OF ISLAM OR NOT.
Moreover, why do you not be able to give any single reference from the Qur’an in support of your ‘Unwritten Sunnah, twatur, ijmaa’? If you able to give, then the discussion will automatically be ended here. First of all you should try to give this.
Actually I know why you are trying to divert the discussion point to another subject leaving the original subject. Because you could not find any suitable reference in Qur’an in favour of your unwritten sunnah falsely attributed to Prophet, twatur, ijmaa and for that reason you are trying CONTINUOUSLY to prove by hook or by crook that quran reached us only through ‘continuity & consensus’ and also the ‘sunnah’(fabricated) of Muhammad without quoting any verse in favour of this from Qur’an and AS BOTH ARE REACHED US THROUGH THE SAME WAY i.e. Continuity, Consensus and when you accept Qur’an as Source of Islamic Law then also you should accept sunnah(fabricated) as source of law.
But brother your this theory is completely false because Qur’an does not support this.
However, I want that that the discussion between us should be going on for the benefit of others and for the sake of this I can only request you please leave this point here and proceed further because you can’t be able to find any reference in favour of your claim from the Qur’an.
Samsher. |
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hkhan
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 12:35 PM
walaykum assalam perv 1(sorry we hv been missing eachother on chat-after your last mesge i left for hosp. and hv left a mesge for you to txt me your numbers 'coz i lost that cell of mine recently which had all my contacts--500--feel gud to say that-dr rizwan teases me saying that even noah pbuh did not mnge to collect that many..how many do we keep in touch with.. )
nothing is sad my dear and respected colleague and my dear br in islam...why should we be sad  alhamdulillah each one of us has been given the freedom to choose what we feel is right because the accountability is going to be on the basis of what we understood as right.
this site is promoting what it has understood as right after hard work of study and research. .
yourself and everyone else has the same right to do so-we are not here to change people's opinions but just to share. the sun may be bright and luvly for me but really irritating for a photophobic-and dangerous for someone suffering from skin cancer caused by radiation-so we can't insist on everyone to enjoy the sun equally. small species of red roses is fabulous for some-but they make me sneeze like mad-(actually when my in-laws brought them for the wedding -i ended up having anti-allergics)  |
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hkhan
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 12:41 PM
contd: from SI courses
Firstly, the Sunan are largely common among all the sects. If we could once again refer to the list of Sunan given in Module 2, we would realize that all sects of Muslims agree to them. If at all there are any differences of minor nature they
are negligible in the face of much larger common ground among the sects.
Actually, the sects agree on most of the details of the Sunan. For example there are more than six hundred aspects that fully define the daily prayers, their timing, ablution, and related issues. Out of these, the Muslim sects differ on two or three aspects.
Actually, the differences have been exaggerated by centuries of debate
and discussion and have remained in the forefront of academic and scholastic
world, while the common aspects have receded into the background.
Secondly, such minor differences can also be explained away. In cases where the Holy Prophet (sws) left us with a number of options or remained silent, the act was left to us. Like the instance of permissible supplications in the Qa‘dah,(sitting)
sometimes people have selected one of the options and then insist on it. They
sometimes take upon themselves one of the options as binding. This narrow mindedness leads them to overlook the freedom granted to the Muslims and different sects start arguing which of the supplication is mandatory. In such cases also the Sunnah is actually not the point of discord. In fact, the intention in such cases is to leave the details to the choice of Muslims. When Muslims exercise this option, a superficial look may lead one to
the conclusion that the Sunnah itself is being disputed, whereas, in fact, the
Muslims were given freedom to choose in these areas and have, consequently,
chosen variously. Therefore such instances of dissent among the sects should not lead one to question the authenticity of the Sunnah.
contd: |
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sksamsherali
INDIA
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Posted - Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 9:25 AM
Quranic Principles about the position of 'Hadeeth and Sunnah' in Islam
PRINCIPLE 1 : By the Book that makes THINGS CLEAR (Quran : 44.2)
PRINCIPLE 2 :Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than God? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, EXPLAINED IN DETAIL." (Quran : 6.114)
PRINCIPLE 3: God has revealed the most beautiful Message in the form of a Book, CONSISTENT WITH ITSELF repeating itself in various ways (Quran : 39.23)
PRINCIPLE 4: And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge; for every act of HEARING, or of SEEING or of REASONING will be enquired into (Quran : 17.36).
PRINCIPLE 5: Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than God, they would surely have found therein MANY CONTRADICTIONS (Quran : 4.82).
PRINCIPLE 6: Blessed is He who sent down THE CRITERIA to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures (Quran : 25.1)
Putting these 6 principles into simpler terms:
1- The Quran MAKES THINGS CLEAR or it clarifies things
2- The Quran is EXPLAINED IN DETAIL
3- The Quran is CONSISTENT IN ITSELF and so will use appropriate terminology for the same concepts
4- Anything which is to be accepted as 'knowledge' must be either seen, heard or reasoned..
5- If anything is from God, it will be consistent. On the other hand, if it is from humankind, it will contain many contradictions.
6- The Quran also calls itself AL-furqan or the criterion which shows that it's position must be the starting point by which to judge.
Let us now apply our principles to the idea of 'hadeeth and sunnah' :
PRINCIPLE 1 : The Quran makes things clear or clarifies things.
The supporters of hadeeth and sunnah have had to rely on half verses and verses taken out of context in order to make us believe they are part of Islam. Among these verses are
1. 'obey Allah and obey the messenger' (even though the Quran clearly defines the messengers only inspiration)
2. 'in the messenger you will find a beautiful example' (even though the Quran clearly commands him to follow the way of Ibrahim, which is found in the Quran itself)
3. 'whatever the messenger gives you, take it...' (this is a half a verse, quoting the entire verse will find it referring to war spoils, not hadeeth and sunnah)
There is not a single verse in the Quran referring to what we know as 'hadeeth and sunnah of Muhammad'.
PRINCIPLE 2 : The Quran is fully-detailed
The supporters of hadeeth and sunnah claim that hadeeth and sunnah provide the details of Islamic living. We can see that this simply isn't true. The Quran is not a general document. As we can see from the Quranic verse (24.58), the Quran is detailed when Allah wants us to be informed of the details. It only isn't detailed to those who apply an artificial standard of being 'detailed'
Despite the Quran being fully-detailed, we can see nothing of the system of classification which filters the hadeeth and sunnah. Hadeeth relies on a system of classification which tells us which hadeeth is reliable and which isn't. Yet this system is not mentioned in the Quran at all. Instead the system was created and developed by the scholars of sunnism and as expected, there are many standards by which to judge. Everything is relative to a scholar's opinion.
to be continued..... |
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sksamsherali
INDIA
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Posted - Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 9:29 AM
PRINCIPLE 3 : The Quran is consistent internally.
The Quran DOES use the words 'hadeeth' and 'sunnah'. For example :
1.Such are the Signs of God, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what HADEETH will they believe after God and His Signs? (Quran 45.6)
2. Do they see nothing in the government of the heavens and the earth and all that God hath created? (Do they not see) that it may well be that their terms is nigh drawing to an end? In what HADEETH after this will they then believe? (Quran 7.185)
3. Then what HADEETH after that, will they believe in? (Quran 77.50)
4.God has revealed the most beautiful HADEETH (Quran 39.23)
As we can see, even though the Quran is consistent internally, it NEVER uses 'hadeeth and sunnah' to mean 'hadeeth and sunnah of Muhammad'. This was a later invention of Sunni scholars who even opposition for thier innovation.
PRINCIPLE 4 : In order to accept something as knowledge, we must either HEAR it, SEE it, or use reason to determine it
Hadeeth and Sunnah by its very nature completes goes against this 4th principle. The hadeeth collection of the Sunnis came into their final nearly 200 years after the Prophet. The compilers of hadeeth had no way of knowing if the hadeeth actually came from the narrator or not. Instead , they relied on either oral and written reports. As for the use of reason, there is very little or none. Some hadeeth exhibit an utter disregard for reason and blatant contradiction to the Quran itself. Furthermore, hadeeth collections have so many classifications by so many scholars, it's impossible to accept any hadeeth, since even Sahih al-bukhari , 'the second most correct book after the Book of Allah' according to sunnis are found with hadeeth which have been re-classified.
PRINCIPLE 5 : If anything is from God, it should not have any inconsistencies. Anything from mankind will have MANY contradictions.
The most blatant contradictions of the hadeeth and sunnah is with the Quran itself, for example , the practices of :
1- stoning
2- punishing apostates
3-the wearing of veils for women
4- the institution of forbidden foods (even though the Quran explicitly states that it's the only source to forbid anything)
Moreover, hadeeth and sunnah are in contradiction with themselves. This is shows by the three versions of the farewell sermon , witnessed by TEN THOUSAND PEOPLE. The three versions are :
Follow Quran and Sunnah (from Muwatta of Malik)
Follow Quran and Prophet's Family (from Sahih al-Muslim)
Follow Quran alone (from Sahih al-Muslim)
And worse still , all three versions are canonized permanently by books of hadeeth !
PRINCIPLE 6 : The Quran is the ONLY criteria(Furqan).
If we look closely, it's principle 6 which sums everything up most clearly. The Quran is the starting point, the definition point by which all Islamic institutions must be judged. Principle 6 is really the sum of Principles 1 through Principle 5. Hadeeth and sunnah have failed the Quranic test.
Samsherali |
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sksamsherali
INDIA
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Posted - Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 11:34 AM
The manipulation of 7:157
[pre]".........the gentile prophet (Muhammad), whom they find written in their Torah and Gospel. He exhorts them to be righteous, enjoins them from evil, allows for them all good food, and prohibits that which is bad, and unloads the burdens and the shackles imposed upon them."[/pre] 7:157
[pre]The traditional Muslims claim that Prophet had the power to authorize the good things and prohibit the bad things.They cite the above verse in support of their claim.
But as will be shown here, they are in fact manipulating 7:157 in order to elevate the prophet to the status of being a Law Maker besides God.
It must be said that if we study one ayat in isolation, such as 7:157, it may well seem that the prophet is spoken of as a Law maker in the Quran, however, if we study all the related verses together the picture becomes totally different.
To study 7:157 we must also study 66:1 and also 6:114.
Immediately, the message in 6:114 stands out clear; God is the ONLY source of law. In addition, in 66:1 we read how God reprimands the prophet for once prohibiting an itme that was NOT prohibited by God. This makes the issue beyond dispute: the prophet does not have the authority to prohibit except what is prohibited by God.
As a result the meaning of 7:157 now becomes very clear, the prophet will advocate his people to do righteous acts, enjoins them from evil and prohibits them from bad things, all in accordance to what is given to him in the Quran by God, and nothing else.
We must always remember that any messenger from God is a medium through which God's commands are transmitted to the people. God does not come down to communicate with the people in person. God gave the Quran to Muhammad, and the Quran came out of Muhammad's mouth, so Muhammad is commanded by God to do the above in accordance to the law given in the Quran and not in accordance to Muhammad's own desires.[/pre]
Samsher |
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Tariq Hashmi
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 2:51 PM
quote:
A Q: for Brother Tariq Hashmi!
Are there any references for the torment in grave(Azaab-e-Qabr) in Quraan. while Quraan states clearly that the sinners shall be punished on the day of the final Judgement.???
Jazakallah,
Rishad
Salams
http://renaissance.com.pk/Decq52y3.html |
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hkhan
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 10:48 PM
quote: The compilers of hadeeth had no way of knowing if the hadeeth actually came from the narrator or not. Instead , they relied on either oral and written reports. As for the use of reason, there is very little or none.
this is what this site is endeavouring to do i.e. purge the hadith literature from such defects and bring out the right as taught by the teacher, the last prophet Muhammad,pbuh.
those who claim to believe in Qur'an but reject the teachings of the bringer of Qur'an must think seriously about their claim such a claim will make even a school child laugh!!   it is like accepting the syllabus in a class room at a school but pushing the teacher out... |
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sksamsherali
INDIA
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Posted - Friday, May 25, 2007 - 1:01 PM
Salam,
Q:- this is what this site is endeavouring to do i.e. purge the hadith literature from such defects and bring out the right as taught by the teacher, the last prophet Muhammad,pbuh.
R:- Smile. Every believers know about the duty, which your site is doing. Ha..ha….Please at first provide your proof that ahadith(fabricated) were preached by Muhammad???
Q:- those who claim to believe in Qur'an but reject the teachings of the bringer of Qur'an must think seriously about their claim such a claim will make even a school child laugh!! it is like accepting the syllabus in a class room at a school but pushing the teacher out...
R:- Bahen, what was the teaching of Muhammad? Do you know? Muhammad taught ONLY Qur’an. He was the bringer of Qur’an, not the ahadith(fabricated).
Bahen, don’t claim anything like a child. At first provide evidence from Qur’an that he said another sayings called ahadith besides Qur’an.
I again say what your site is doing every believers are known. Smile.
Samsher. |
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Rakhtal
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, May 25, 2007 - 2:05 PM
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Friday, May 25, 2007 - 10:25 PM
AOA
quote:
this is what this site is endeavouring to do i.e. purge the hadith literature from such defects and bring out the right as taught by the teacher, the last prophet Muhammad,pbuh.
I am sorry this site is doing no such thing. It is bringing its own form of corruption in Islam. The so called the sunnah which has no basis and has no method of being verified.
PLEASE BRING EVEN A TINY EVIDENCE FOR ITS EXISTANCE FROM THE QURAN
quote:
those who claim to believe in Qur'an but reject the teachings of the bringer of Qur'an must think seriously about their claim such a claim will make even a school child laugh!! it is like accepting the syllabus in a class room at a school but pushing the teacher out...
I am sorry but what evidence do you have that the sunnah that this site is propogating is the teaching of the bringer of the Quran. The evidence for this is zero.
Bringer of the Quran had exactly this function and that was to bring the Quran. After all does the bringer of the Quran not told in the QURAN: YOUR ONLY FUNCTION IS ONLY[/b] TO CONVEY THE QURAN. Please tell us whether the founders of this site believe in this quotation from the Quran or not. If you believe in this verse then how do you explain attribution of religious functions to the bringer of the Quran when they are CLEARLY against what Allah has ordered in the Quran.
Regards |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 3:44 PM
AOA Henna
quote:
those who claim to believe in Qur'an but reject the teachings of the bringer of Qur'an must think seriously about their claim such a claim will make even a school child laugh!! it is like accepting the syllabus in a class room at a school but pushing the teacher out...
Sorry to be so critical again but I am afraid it is a very poor analogy.
The job of the teacher is to teach the syllabus i.e Chemistry teacher teaches chemistry and the physics one physics etc..I think you get my drift. No one is throwing out the teacher here. The point is imply that the Quran is the Syllabus but for some reason you want to go beyond this syllabus and make addditons to it. It might not have occured to those on this site but the teacher has not been around (physically speaking) for over 1400 hunderd years and he did leave comprehensive notes (the Quran) but it seems they are not enough for many, so they all want to make additions & there are so many of these different groups adding their own colorful additions that one cannot even remember them all. They are all convinced that their additions are the correct ones (for no other reason than that they believe in them) & every one elses additions are corruptions.
regards |
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