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cares
PAKISTAN
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 Posted - Monday, February 12, 2007 - 11:48 AM 
Salam all,
Brother Roushan ..P/1
Quote: why these people (quran only group)has so much enthusiasm and zeal in denouncing Hadith.
Reply: Brother I could not reply earlier as I was out of city, what I understand the reasons are following in this regard and this is my understanding…whether one should accept or reject it.
When Allah created human being He says that we should live on this earth for a time period and after that we will be returned to Allah for a reward of Heaven or Hell for what we have done. Our whole test will depend upon a GUIADNACE from Allah that how should we follow that in case of TRUTH AND FALSEHOOD.
In this regard He will guide us through ourselves (human being), He will choose man among ours and give them guidance in FORM of message, scripture, signs…etc. through WAHI and we will know the way that leads to God commandments.
On the other side Allah has given all characters in the creation of human being to accept or reject, Hate or Love, obey or disobey, Kindness or Unkindness, Proud or Humble….etc. to follow or disfollow him. He (human being) has been given all authorities of power in this regard.
Here the only thing is WAHI between Allah and His MESSENGERS which he sends to his chosen messengers to deliver message among the people. We have been said to obey that message. Now this message can be in form of SCRIPTURE, SINGS, WISDOM, EVEN WITHOUT ANY SCRIPTURE, given to those messengers through WAHI.
The FORM OR TYPE OF MESSAGE DOES NOT KEEP ANY IMPORTANCE, it may be in sings, wisdom, scripture, or even without scriptures. The only concerned thing should be the MESSAGE, or the SIGNS, or WISDOM or ALL in ONE person.
Now above things have been given to the messengers, and make one (messenger) Superior to other (human being) by ranking. And other people have been said to follow THE ONE PERSON because of these all i.e message, signs..etc guidance for them.
Now when they (messengers) become superior in ranking than we human, just because of the message which they have brought, THEN these (rejcetors) people become JEALOUS.
So they (rejectors) think that y those (messengers) have been made messenger, why not they? As they were like them too, Why they should obey his sayings and doings.
So this is the basic reason which changes into more shapes, like to obey the messenger is only to obey the message what they messengers brought.
Actually this sense is also right, but it is half, and the complete one is to obey the both Message i.e Scripture & Messenger as personal too. Because if u see, we obey what a messenger speaks from his mouth, then he tell us that this is Quran and these are his sayings. He is true to his words. If we believe a person’s speaking spoken as Quran THEN why not we can obey a person’s sayings, or doings, as situation is the same. As for as the sayings and doings as personal of a messenger’s are concerned, mainly they may be of two types, ONE which is spoken or did for GUIADANCE OR RELIGION source AND other for his daily life. A layman can easily differentiate b/w the both easily, which are for guidance and which are for his person life.
But rejecters do not accept this to say that there is no personal obedience of a messenger, we agree that we have no personal obedience other than the guidance for Religion, the guidance which is given to him is also a FORM OF WAHI,
Where ever Allah speaks in Quran like that “HE sends WAHI to his messenger, or He who is messenger does not speak but a WAHI sent to him”, totally does not mean THAT everyplace in Quran word “ WAHI “ stands for REVELATION or QURAN. It also mean WAHI/INSPIRATION other than QURAN. When word WAHI is mentioned, if it is supported by or mentioned as SCRIPTURE, before or after it, then there its meaning is Quran, and if it is not so THEN it is also guidance OTHER THAN QURAN for us. We have been said to obey THE WAHI. And this way both are received from ONE PERSON. BUT ACTUALLY THERE IS ONE THING and that is WAHI.
(Note: This definition is given by a Well Know scholar, Syed Moulana Abulalla Moudodi in his book “ Sunnah ki Aani Haisiyat”).
Continue…P/2 for Brother Roushan |
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cares
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, February 12, 2007 - 11:49 AM
Continue…P/2 for Brother Roushan
…We see that a messenger can bring a scripture, and even can come without any scripture first, so when he comes without a scripture then what is thing by which he (messenger) guides people? Then answer to this is that he is INSPIRED/WAHI, through which he guide us. SO IT IS PROVED THAT A MESSAGE WITHOUT ANY SCRIPTURE CAN BE GUIDANCE OR SOURCE OF RELIGION brought by the messengers.
And these rejectors also agreed that Prophet Muhammad received INSPIRATION/WAHI, however they do not agree. Alas!
So HOW CAN THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE BEATING THE DRUM OF SCRIPTURE…SCRIPTURE….SCRIPTURE… “THE ONLY SOURCE FOR GUIADANCE”, accept that a messenger can guide the HUMAN BIENG without any SCRIPTURE.??? ( the messengers who have not been given scripture).
Here they say that “ messengers who do not bring scriptures, promote previous scriptures” but they have not even a single proof to that.
SO we see that actually this is not their problem, the root problem is that THEY DO not WANT TO OBEY A MESSAGE FROM A PERSON LIKE THEM, THIS IS THE MOST UNFAVOURABLE CONDITION FOR THEM THAT THEY DO NOT LIKE.
These persons would obey if the MESSAGE IS DIRECTLY SAID TO THEM BY ALLAH, but They do not like to obey it if there is one in MIDTH OF this message, and who is also a person like them.
So this is the Sunnah of Allah to make human being/ Jinn HIS obedience indirectly, and this is a testing from Allah.
You have read in holy Quran in many places that people asked messengers why Allah did not speak to THEM directly, WHY DID HE SEND MESSENGERS?
Or You (messengers) should not have been from ours/human being as we all would have been considered equally, SO THEY WANT TO SAY as they are ready to OBEY the message IF THE PERSON SHOULD HAVE CHANGED according to their choice or messengers should not have been from humans.
Therefore such persons (REJECTORS OF HADITH & SUNNAH) try to remove the LABEL of being one’s messengership, to make him (messenger) equal to them as they feel that we all are equal, no prophet no messenger but just MESSEGE…they hate messengers when THEY are not considered equal to messengers/prophets.
Therefore they try to find different ways THAT y should they OBEY a messenger other than the MESSAGE i.e SCRIPUTRE.
By God if they see there is also a message from the messengers as personal for guidance of human kind, they never said that these people should have wash their cups and clothes.
This is my understanding whether any one agree or not….there are many more reasons but I see, THE MAJOR REASON IS THAT MOST OF HUMAN BEING DO NOT WANT to follow others INSTRUCTIONS,
YES THEY WILL ACCEPT IF THE PERSON IS CHOSEN BY THEM, or if the COMMANDMENTS ARE ACCORDING TO THEIR WHIMS OR WILLS, then such people will obey.
Therefore SUCH people do not like past people too, their understandings, their works or jobs made in this regard.
THEY WANT TO GET RID OF ALL THAT. Why should they take A BIG BURDEN of Sunnah, Hadith, Ijma, Qiyas…etc, they become very bore when they see a lot before them, and become confused when they think that they should consult to Ulmas, Scholars, …etc. therefore this is their shortcut to run behind the door.
Salam
Cares.. |
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cares
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, February 12, 2007 - 11:50 AM
Salam
Brother Roushan
Quote: We have people of the same thinking earlier also but they never start propagating their views by declaring others as idolators or kafirs.If we go through their(new rejecters of hadith) literature it appears as if their objective is nothing but to oppose hadith only.
Reply: To say others Idolators or Kafirs is THE MAIN TRICK OF THESE PERSONS, they want to TAKE OTHERS ATTENTIONS to them, THEY WANT TO MAKE THEMSELVES VERY IMPORTANT THAN OTHERS. Suppose if “A” person have understanding “THAT THERE IS GOD” and AN OTHER PERSON “B” HAS SAME UNDERSTANDING but with some difference “ THAT THERE IS ONE BUT I DO NOT THINK THAT HIS NAME IS GOD OR ALLAH”. So both views are different but likely the same. THEREFORE the most of the people will not use their time to think or talk about them or pay a good attention to them, but when SOME ONE “C” SAYS THAT “ O BROTHER EVEN THERE IS NO ONE, NO GOD NO ALLAH”. Then both A & B will be shocked to listen this AND MOVE ALL THEIR ATTENTIONS TO THAT “ C “ PERSON. Is’nt?.
So they are doing such tricks i.e TO MAKE THEM POPULAR in very short time of period OTHERWISE making a little differences or objections THEY DO NOT WANT TO WASTE THEIR TIME AND LIFE. “ they want very quick result”.
Quote: I ve read abt some groups in west like "God Alone"following their religion on similar patterns.Is it their background before islam which works or are they seeking refuge from the questions raised by free minds ?
Reply: Actually “ God Alone” is STAND of every Muslim and it should be also. But matter is that what THE WAY/PATH/METHOD should be taken to seek obedience of God Alone”, All disagreements comes FROM THE WAY OF HOW TO APPLY COMMANDMENTS. If u want to know the back ground of rejectors of hadith & sunnah, then I will not call them Rejectors of Hadith or Sunnah, they are actually Rejecting the MESSENGERS i.e Muhammad (sa), or other messengers and prophets from Allah who sent them for guidance of humankind. In this regard these people have a very …very long background.
Cares… |
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cares
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, February 12, 2007 - 12:07 PM
Sallam all,
Brother samsherali…P/1
Quote: In your referred verse 2:213 Almighty Allah says that HE sent down the scriptures with the prophets. Also in some other verses HE says so.
Whenever God mentions prophethood in the Quran, He mentions scripture and sometimes wisdom. The association of prophethood and scripture cannot be missed except by those blocked by God from seeing the truth. The following are some examples (3:79, 6:89,29:27,45:16,57:26). That means Almighty Allah sent the scriptures with the prophet.
Reply: this is nothing but ur whim brother. U people have made this whim to support ur R.K to make a messenger, because he did not brought any new scripture. Therefore he was not fitting to be a messenger. And u made this whim to support him to be a messenger. This is nothing but whim.
Where as Allah says in many places that he sends the scriptures to both MESSENGERS and PROPHETS separately and it is a real truth that can not seen by u type of persons.
Quote: In 33:40 Almighty Allah says that Muhammad is the last prophet, that means no prophet will come and as no prophet will come then no scripture will also come as Almighty God sent scriptures only through the prophets.
Reply: No brother, As Allah says, he sent scriptures to both messengers and prophets too, and when no messenger and prophet are to come, then no scripture will come. So Qur’an is the last scripture.
Quote: But not in the case of messenger as you claimed. You did not consider the verse 3:81 before giving your opinion. The verse clearly says that ‘After all prophets A Messenger will come.
Reply: brother ur explanation of verse 3:81 is wrong, try to understand.
Here God tells the people that he took covenant from the ( previous ) prophets (not all- u deliberately add word “all” to it ) in every age that a messenger will come after them one by one, when one comes HE again takes the covenant from the current to say that after him (this messenger) a new messenger will come, so and so. As coming of Muhammad (PBUH) is mentioned in Torah and Injil, so the same thing Allah reminds them “ the people of previous scriptures”. This is very clear but I am astonished y u do not understand this simple.
Quote: it clearly says after all prophets a messenger will come TO CONFIRM THE EXISTING SCRIPTURES, that means he will not bring any new scripture, he will only confirm the existing scriptures.
Reply: “ EXISTING SCRIPTURES”, U add word EXISTING in place of word “ YE/YOU” (what previous prophets possed- means ‘SCRIPTURES’), in this way u ADD QURAN itself in this circle, BUT actually Quran is not mentioned here, but it is Quran, which is confirming all previos scriptures. To CONFIRM ALL existing scriptures including quran is not concerned here totally.
So see in this regard the verse (5:48) where Quran confirm all previous scriptures.
Cont..p/2 |
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cares
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, February 12, 2007 - 12:08 PM
Cont.,..P/2
Quote:.Therefore, it is proved that Almighty Allah does not send scriptures through all messengers. Also this verse(57:25) does not say about ALL MESSENGERS. 1. No both have not been given books e.g. 3:81. No the terms prophets and messenger are not same thing
Reply: Allah sent scriptures to all the messengers and prophets too, but sometimes messengers and prophets come first to deliver their message and after that scriptures are given, as Mosa was given book later. But they start delivering their messages as soon as they receive inspiration.
My Quote: y ? , was he not a human when he delivered God’s message? Or became angel during delivering the words of God.
Ur REPLY:- Because then he did not speak out of his personal desire. (53:2-5). Brother please read Qur’an carefully and try to understand It before arguing with me.
Reply: Brother I read, therefore I asked u, as u deliberately do not want to give reply that it may cause more trouble for u then it is ok. I do not mind. Brother if I understood then y I did trouble u knowledgeable person. By the way those who lead or betray others will get reward from HIS lord. Remember!
My Quote : it means u agree that when he judges right, we are bound to obey him?, then what this obediency is of Prophet Muhammad as personal.
Your REPLY:- This verse addressed to those women who seek Asylum with Muhammad. Muhammad is not alive now. Also no one can obey him now as personal. We can only obey his message i.e. Qur’an.
Reply: Brother first tell me that u agree, that Either there was obediency of Muhammad as personal for the people or not? Then inshallah we will discuss how a past person can be obeyed or not.
Quote: I have already said all about the subject. Messengers who do not bring a new scripture promote the previous scripture. They reform the distortions and invite their people to monotheism with wisdom and evidence.
Reply: Any reference from the Quran, that messengers who do not receive scriptures promote the previous scripture, where I do not still see the difference b/w messengers who received scripture & those who do not received scriptures, if Allah mention any messenger name without any scripture, u people think that they were not given scriptures, but in several places it is said that HE gave them scriptures.
Quote: "God took a covenant from the PROPHETS, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. AFTERWARDS, a MESSENGER will come to CONFIRM all existing scriptures…”
Reply: Brother first of all, u replace the word “YE” with “ all existing scripture” to add the Book “Quran” in this circle, but it is not so, Quran itself does not come in this circle, see the translation of other scholars.
Yousaf Ali
(3:81)Behold! Allah took the covenant of the prophets, saying: "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you an apostle, CONFIRMING WHAT IS WITH YOU; do ye believe in him and render him help." Allah said: "Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?" They said: "We agree." He said: "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."
Pickthal
(3:81) When Allah made (His) covenant with the prophets, (He said): Behold that which I have given you of the Scripture and knowledge. And afterward there will come unto you a messenger, CONFIRMING THAT WHICH YE POSSESS. Ye shall believe in him and ye shall help him. He said: Do ye agree, and will ye take up My burden (which I lay upon you) in this (matter)? They answered: We agree. He said: Then bear ye witness. I will be a witness with you
M.H shakir
(3:81)
81 And when Allah made a covenant through the prophets: Certainly what I have given you of Book and wisdom-- then an messenger comes to you verifying that WHICH IS WITH YOU, you must believe in him, and you must aid him. He said: Do you affirm and accept My compact in this (matter)? They said: We do affirm. He said: Then bear witness, and I (too) am of the bearers of witness with you.
So ur first whim is cut here that u think, that Quran comes in this circle itself and a new messenger will come to confirm all scriptures including Quran, but actually it is not so, this is Quran which confirms all scriptures before it.
See verse: (5:48), (2:41),(2:88)
(5:48) And unto thee have WE REVEALED THE SCRIPTURE WITH THE TRUTH, CONFIRMING WHATEVER SCRIPTURE WAS BEFORE IT, and a watcher over it.
(2:41) And believe in that which I reveal, CONFIRMING THAT WHICH YE POSSESS ALREADY (OF THE SCRIPTURE), and be not first to disbelieve therein, and part not with My revelations for a trifling price, and keep your duty unto Me.
(2:88) And when there cometh unto them a scripture from Allah, CONFIRMING THAT IN THEIR POSSESSION - THOUGH BEFORE that they were asking for a signal triumph over those who disbelieved ……
So brother leave making whims, therefore I say to u, that u say we are whimsical but ACTUALLY U R A BIG WHIMICAL URSELF.
Quote: Moreover, Muhammad did not come to confirm the scriptures. He came to deliver a new scripture i.e. Qur’an. So he was not the messenger about whom this verse 3:81 says.
Reply: Oh my God?, Brother Quran it self confirms all previous scripture, Matter is not so as u think, that All SCRIPTURES including Quran is concerned to confirm, the sentence meaning is that ‘ A MESSENGER WILL COME WHO CONFIRMS WHICH (YE) PREVIOUS PROPHETS BROUGHT, Quran is not of those but it will be Quran which will confirm previous. See
See verse: (5:48), (2:41),(2:88),(2:97)
Cnt..P/3 |
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cares
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, February 12, 2007 - 12:17 PM
Cont…P/3
Quote: Now please see if I translate the verse 3:81 according to your whims, then let us see what will be the meaning of the verse;
“GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, Muhammad will come to confirm all existing scriptures( not deliver a new scripture) You(including Muhammad because he was a prophet) shall believe in him(Muhammad) and support him(Muhammad) {that means Muhammad believed & support on himself}" He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They(including Muhammad) said, "We agree."(that means Muhammad was also agreed the above covenant that he supports & believed on himself!!!!) He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you."
Reply: No it should so, see
“ God took a covenant from the prophets, saying, “ I will give u the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, Muhammad will come to confirm which u (previous prophets posses). You (prophets other than Muhammad because he is not encluded) shall believe in him (Muhammad) and support him (Muhammad), he said “ do u (prophets other than Muhammad) agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this coenant?”. They (not encluding Muhammad) said, “ We agree, (prophets other than Muhammad agreed). He said, “ you have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with u”.
Quote: Then according to your same logic after 500 + years later Almighty God took the covenant from Muhammad. Isn’t ?
Reply: Allah did not take a covenant from Muhammad of such type, because there is no messeger to come after him. And this covenant is concerned about a new messenger coming. So there is no such covenant mentioned in Holy Quran, as no messenger has to come.
Quote: 2ndly, Almighty Allah took the covenant from US also (as you opined). Then according to your logic Almighty God took this covenant separately from you from me…..from all people past, present one by one and will be taken from future people one by one. Isn’t? What a logic!!!
Reply: Brother I do not mean so exactly as u mentioned, I mean Allah can do so and as for our covenant is concerned see the following verse:-
(2:84),2:187,5:12,4:54, 5:7,5:14
Quote: Oh…. Your reply? you could not yet provide any quranic verse in support of your whims till date rather conjecture. When you will be able to provide reference from the Qur'an, you pl. tell me, I shall Inshallah response you.
Reply: Thanx brother that u have given ur precious time to response, I really appreciate, thx.
I don’t know what type of quranic verses u want to know that prove ur whims, as several times all the members mentioned Quranic verse in the regard of subject, but always u run to say that give quranic prove, I do not know what is ur understanding.
One thing more, I appreciate u type of persons hardworking that u made in this regard to remove sunah & hadith, and it seems also that u people first gathered or collected“ all the materials” I mean objections, interpretations, understanding…etc of all type of muslims belonging to Sunahh, hadith..etc AND then u gave GOOD TIME, VERY GOOD TIME, to set up a system WHICH HOW OPPOSE THEIR SYSTEMS, i.e Sunah & Hadith.
In this way u have adopted ur religion “ FIRST AND THEN WENT THROUGH THE QURAN and TURNED ITS (QURAN) FACE TOWARDS TO UR WISHES” to prove that. Is’nt?.
But u are not completely succeded in ur mission. Because what one wish never be done until Allah wills.
I think in this regard if some one has to know about ur whims and to proov them false HE ALSO HAVE TO GIVE A GOOD TIME to it, and should first know all ur whims and interpretations. Then inshallah he will be more able to judge u well.
Sincerely speaking, brother I m not a learned or scholar man, just a student, but I knew this that u are not on the right path, but Allah knows the best that who is on right path.
Thx again,
Take care,
Cares… |
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sksamsherali
INDIA
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Posted - Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 11:31 AM
Sallam all,
Brother cares
Quote: this is nothing but ur whim brother. U people have made this whim to support ur R.K to make a messenger, because he did not brought any new scripture. Therefore he was not fitting to be a messenger. And u made this whim to support him to be a messenger. This is nothing but whim.
MY REPLY:- Don’t be excited brother. I can also say you as you say that ‘you people made your whim to support your idol Muhammad to make him the last messenger’, when it is not true according to Qur’an. I have given you numerous references from the Qur’an in support of my statement that “Whenever God mentions prophethood in the Qur’an, HE mentions scripture and sometimes wisdom” e.g. (3:79, 6:89, 29:27,45:16, 57:26). But blind like you can’t see this light. Also all messengers did not/do not bring scripture(s) e.g. 3:81 also messenger Hood, Saleh…
Quote:- Where as Allah says in many places that he sends the scriptures to both MESSENGERS and PROPHETS separately and it is a real truth that can not seen by u type of persons.
MY REPLY:- Where brother??? Where brother, Almighty Allah says that ‘He sends the scriptures to BOTH MESSENGERS AND PROPHETS SEPARATELY”?? Why had you not been able to give any single reference from the Qur’an in support of your statement?? I know why. Because it is OBVIOUS LIE and for that you people never find any reference in support of it.
Quote: No brother, As Allah says, he sent scriptures to both messengers and prophets too, and when no messenger and prophet are to come, then no scripture will come. So Qur’an is the last scripture.
MY REPLY:- smile. At first pl. show me a single reference from the Qur’an wherein Almighty says(as you claimed) that “He sent scriptures to both messengers and prophets separately”. I know you can’t be able. Please go and try…..carry on……. Also I never claimed by saying that Qur’an is not the last scripture. Don’t speak lie after lie.
Quote: brother ur explanation of verse 3:81 is wrong, try to understand.
Here God tells the people that he took covenant from the ( previous ) prophets (not all- u deliberately add word “all” to it )
MY REPLY:- Verse 3:81 says that Almighty Allah took the covenant from the PROPHETS. HE did not say here that He took the covenant from the PREVIOUS PROPHETS!!!(if yes, then provide reference) Why do you ADD here your own words(whims), which is not found in the Qur’an??? HE said that HE took the covenant from the PROPHETS that means He took that….. and also from Muhammad as he was also a prophet. Very simple, but I amazed why you people can’t understand this very simple sentence!!!
Quote:- in every age that a messenger will come after them one by one,
REPLY:- Could you pl. tell me what do you mean here by saying “in every age a messenger will come”. Please provide reference from the Qur’an in support of your opinion.
Quote:- when one comes HE again takes the covenant from the current to say that after him (this messenger) a new messenger will come, so and so. As coming of Muhammad (PBUH) is mentioned in Torah and Injil,
MY REPLY:- This is not the rule. It is your own whims, because Qur’an does not support this and also does not certify that every messenger prophet told in every scripture regarding the future coming messenger prophet. Whatever may be, for the sake of argument if I accept your whimsical theory, then I can say or it is proved that; In 3:81 “Qur’an (through the mouth of Muhammad) also says that “After the prophets A messenger will come to CONFIRM THE SCRIPTURES” that means he(the incoming) messenger, who will come after the PROPHETS, will only confirm the existing scriptures, not delivered a news scripture. Then why do you not understand this simple clear meaning of the verse concerned???
To be continued…………. |
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sksamsherali
INDIA
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Posted - Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 11:46 AM
Salam to All,
In continuation of my early reply…..
Quote: “ EXISTING SCRIPTURES”, U add word EXISTING in place of word “ YE/YOU” (what previous prophets possed- means ‘SCRIPTURES’), in this way u ADD QURAN itself in this circle, BUT actually Quran is not mentioned here, but it is Quran, which is confirming all previos scriptures. To CONFIRM ALL existing scriptures including quran is not concerned here totally.
So see in this regard the verse (5:48) where Quran confirm all previous scriptures.
MY REPLY:-    Do you think that Qur’an was existing at that time but not his(Muhammad’s) possession OR do you think that Qur’an was not existing at that time??? Please tell me at first which one you think. After knowing from your end in this regard I shall InshAllah reply to you.
I think you again try to create an illusion between the two words EXISTING and POSSESSION to confuse other believers of this forum. The real truth is that the verse 3:81 clearly says that ‘covenant took from the PROPHETS….. as Muhammad was also prophet, so he is also included in this covenant (it is also proved in verse 33:7) and also the Qur’an, which was sent through him. Now read very carefully the verse 3:81 part by part and consider;
“GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom”.
As Muhammad was also prophet and Almighty God gave him scripture/wisdom, then he is also INCLUDED IN THIS COVENANT. As an another proof of it you can also see the verse 33:7)
Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures{or which prophets are possessed).Since Muhammad was also possessed Qur’an, then IT is also included in this covenant.
2ndly, in this sentence, the word AFTERWARDS are very indicative. It means after all of them or after all of the scriptures. If not, then GOD would not have used this word ‘AFTERWARDS’ here. This sentence also tells us the duty of that incoming messenger, which will be TO CONFIRM THE SCRIPTURES. Muhammad did not confirm QUR’AN. He only delivered IT to the mankind.
Also I proved from the Qur’an that all messengers were not prophet and Muhammad was a messenger prophet and this verse tells about a messenger not messenger prophet, so Muhammad was not the messenger about whom this verse tells us.
Quote: Allah sent scriptures to all the messengers and prophets too,
MY REPLY:- Not true. Messengers who were Prophets were only given the scriptures. Almighty God did not send scriptures through the messengers who were not prophets. e.g. Saleh…..(3:81)
Quote:- but sometimes messengers and prophets come first to deliver their message and after that scriptures are given, as Mosa was given book later. But they start delivering their messages as soon as they receive inspiration.
MY REPLY:- That does not mean that messengers, who were not prophets, were given scriptures.
Quote: Brother I read, therefore I asked u, as u deliberately do not want to give reply that it may cause more trouble for u then it is ok. I do not mind. Brother if I understood then y I did trouble u knowledgeable person. By the way those who lead or betray others will get reward from HIS lord. Remember!
MY REPLY:- If you had red then you could not ask me this idiotic question. You deliberately don’t try to understand the meaning of the verses 53:2-5
Brother, if any one sleep with open his eyes, then what can I do??? Do you know who will incur a shameful retribution??? Please see;
[31:6] Among the people, there are those WHO UPHOLD BASELESS HADITH, and thus divert others from the path of GOD without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution.
To be continued……….. |
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sksamsherali
INDIA
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Posted - Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 11:51 AM
Salam all
Quote: Brother first tell me that u agree, that Either there was obediency of Muhammad as personal for the people or not? Then inshallah we will discuss how a past person can be obeyed or not.
MY REPLY:- No where Qur’an says that people should obey Muhammad’s personal opinion as religious source. His personal opinion might be right or wrong.
Secondly, The verse in concerned(60:12) says about the then Women, who came to Muhammad to seek ASYLUM…. Do you know the meaning of ASYLUM? This verse does not say about all the people of that time..
this verse also say to Muhammad that ‘you shall accept their(women) pledge and pray to God to forgive them, when they will not set up any idols besides GOD, nor steal, nor commit adultery , …………… nor disobey your righteous orders. This verse does not say any kind of personal obedience of Muhammad. Now look another verse in this regard;
[60:10] O you who believe, when believing women (abandon the enemy and) ask for asylum with you, you shall test them. GOD is fully aware of their belief. Once you establish that they are believers, you shall not return them to the disbelievers. They are not lawful to remain married to them, nor shall the disbelievers be allowed to marry them. Give back the dowries that the disbelievers have paid. You commit no error by marrying them, so long as you pay them their due dowries. Do not keep disbelieving wives (if they wish to join the enemy). You may ask them for the dowry you had paid, and they may ask for what they paid. This is GOD's rule; He rules among you. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.
The above verse say about the BELIEVEING WOMEN OF THAT TIME who came to the BELIEVERS to ask for ASYLUM with them(believer). In the same way the verse 60:12 says about the believing women of that time who came to Muhammad to seek ASYLUM with him (as they came to the believing men in 60:10).
Both the verse do not say any kind of personal obediency ob Muhammad or believing men…
Quote: Any reference from the Quran, that messengers who do not receive scriptures promote the previous scripture, where I do not still see the difference b/w messengers who received scripture & those who do not received scriptures, if Allah mention any messenger name without any scripture,
MY REPLY:- Please see 3:81 and also the followings;
Messengers sent to confirm existing scripture:
"Now that a MESSENGER from God has come to them, and even though HE PROVES AND CONFIRMS THEIR OWN SCRIPTURE, some followers of the scripture (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) disregard God's scripture behind their backs, as if they never had any scripture." 2:101
" ......... afterwards, a MESSENGER will come TO CONFIRM ALL EXISTING SCRIPTURES." 3:81
Messengers sent for teaching and purifying a people:
"Our Lord, and raise among them a messenger to recite to them Your revelations, TEACH THEM THE SCRIPTURE AND WISDOM, AND PURIFY THEM. You are the Almighty, Most Wise." 2:129
Messengers are sent to reveal hidden issues within the scripture:
God reveals the contents of the scripture according to His Infinite Wisdom. Some matters are kept hidden for an appointed time that God has ordained. God reveals some of these matters through messengers that he chooses.
"He is the Knower of the 'ghaib' (unseen); He does not reveal the ghaib to anyone. Only to a messenger that He chooses, does He reveal from the past and the future, specific news. This is to ascertain that they have delivered their Lord's messages. He is fully aware of what they have. He has counted the numbers of all things." 72:26-28
"(Blessings) such as the sending of a messenger from among you to recite our revelations to you, purify you, teach you the scripture and wisdom, and TO TEACH YOU WHAT YOU NEVER KNEW." 2:151
Messengers are sent to reveal issues in the scripture deliberately hidden by the people:
Many who corrupt God's truth to uphold their own idolatry are guilty of deliberately hiding important issues inside the scripture from the people. God sends messengers to expose the idolatry of such people and to reveal these prime issues:
"O people of the scripture, OUR MESSENGER HAS COME TO YOU TO PROCLAIM FOR YOU MANY THINGS YOU HAVE CONCEALED IN THE SCRIPTURE, and to pardon many other transgressions you have committed. A beacon has come to you from God, and a profound scripture." 5:15
Do you see???
Quote:- u people think that they were not given scriptures, but in several places it is said that HE gave them scriptures.
MY REPLY:- where brother??? Could you please provide any single reference???
To be continued………………. |
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sksamsherali
INDIA
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Posted - Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 10:20 AM
Salam to all,
In continuation of my earlier reply……………………..
Quote: Brother first of all, u replace the word “YE” with “ all existing scripture” to add the Book “Quran” in this circle, but it is not so, Quran itself does not come in this circle, see the translation of other scholars.
Yousaf Ali
So ur first whim is cut here that u think, that Quran comes in this circle itself and a new messenger will come to confirm all scriptures including Quran, but actually it is not so.
MY REPLY:- I have already replied to your above question through my earlier mail. I already told that you tried to create an illusion between the two English words EXISTINGS & POSSESSION. You think that here existing and possession do not mean the same. You think what Muhammad possessed are only the previous scriptures, not the Qur’an OR you think Qur’an does not come in the circle of Muhammad’s possession. But this is not true. Here the meaning of All Existing Scriptures and which you(Muhammad) possessed are the same because previous(all existing) scriptures and the present scriptures i.e. Qur’an, both were in possession of Muhammad. Therefore,
POSSESSION = Which Muhammad Possessed i.e. Qur’an + previous scriptures. & EXISTING also means Qur’an + previous scriptures, which existed.
Secondly, I earlier told that it is clear in verse 3:81 that Almighty Allah took the covenant from PROPHETS(not from anyone) by saying "I will give you the scripture and wisdom”
……Muhammad was a prophet and Almighty Allah gave him scriptures and wisdom.
The next sentence says us that “And afterward there will come unto you a messenger, CONFIRMING THAT WHICH YE POSSESS”.(Pickthall) OR “Afterwards, a messenger will come to CONFIRM ALL EXISTING SCRIPTURES”.(R.K.)
The meaning of both the sentences is same rather the translation of R.K. is very clear and easiest one.
Also here the word AFTERWARDS is very indicative, which means AFTER ALL OF THE PROPHETS & ALL OF THE SCRIPTURES…
So Prophet Muhammad and Qur’an also come in the circle of covenant. You think that Muhammad comes in this circle but not Qur’an!!! What a logic!!!! OR probably you think that Muhammad and Qur’an, both are not come in this circle, Yet Almighty God says us that HE took the COVENANT FROM PROPHETS. Alas!!!
[3:82] Those who reject this (Quranic prophecy) are the evil ones.
[16:104] Surely, those who do not believe in GOD's revelations, GOD does not guide them. They have incurred a painful retribution.
Quote:- this is Quran which confirms all scriptures before it.
See verse: (5:48), (2:41),(2:88)
MY REPLY :- Qur’an confirms all scriptures before it, but It does not confirm Itself.
You are not only whimsical but also a betrayer because you tryied to betray other believers in this forum by creating confusion between the two words Existing & Possession in 3:81.
Quote: that All SCRIPTURES including Quran is concerned to confirm,
MY REPLY :- Qur’an does not confirm Itself. You can’t give your own charter certificate…ha…ha…ha…
Quote:- the sentence meaning is that ‘ A MESSENGER WILL COME WHO CONFIRMS WHICH (YE) PREVIOUS PROPHETS BROUGHT, Quran is not of those but it will be Quran which will confirm previous. See
See verse: (5:48), (2:41),(2:88),(2:97)
MY REPLY:- verse 3:81 says:
“And afterward there will come unto you a messenger, CONFIRMING THAT WHICH YE POSSESS”.(Pickthall) OR
“Afterwards, a messenger will come to CONFIRM ALL EXISTING SCRIPTURES”.(R.K.)
So brother, your translation is nothing but your own whims and every believer of this forum can see/realize this very easily.
To be continued……………… |
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sksamsherali
INDIA
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Posted - Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 10:47 AM
Salam,
In continuation of my earlier reply……………..
Quote: No it should so, see
“ God took a covenant from the prophets, saying, “ I will give u the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, Muhammad will come to confirm which u (previous prophets posses).
MY REPLY :- The meaning of the above sentence is nothing but conjecture because your created interpretation says us that ‘God took a covenant from the PROPHETS by saying I will give you the scripture and wisdom’ and then says AFTERWARDS Muhammad will come..!!! that means your created interpretation of the verse clearly says that Muhammad was not prophet!!!, because the covenant was taken from PROPHETS and if he is not included in covenant,then definitely he was not prophet!!!!
2ndly, your created interpretation also says us “Muhammad will come to confirm which U(previous prophets posses)… that also means Muhammad was not prophet, because then the duty of Muhammad would be to confirm the previous scriptures not delivery of the new scripture, which is totally baseless and false.
3rdly, your created interpretation says us “You (prophets other than Muhammad because he is not encluded) shall believe in him (Muhammad) and support him (Muhammad),
Here you agreed that Muhammad was a prophet but the verse 3:81 does not say that ‘prophets other than Muhammad shall believe in Muhammad. Also you committed a gross mistake here. Please consider; Muhammad was the last prophet and he came more than 500 years after the death of Jesus, last prophet before Muhammad. Then how could ALL PROPHETS SUPPORT & BELIEVE MUHAMMAD, WHEN THEY ALL ARE DEAD WHEN MUHAMMAD CAME?????
And for this reason I told you again & again that Almighty Allah did not take the said covenant in this world, becaus all the prophets were not came altogether in this world at a time.
Fourthly, he said “ do u (prophets other than Muhammad) agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this coenant?”. They (not encluding Muhammad) said, “ We agree, (prophets other than Muhammad agreed). He said, “ you have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with u”.
Here also you done Same gross mistake as you did above.
Quote: Allah did not take a covenant from Muhammad of such type, because there is no messeger to come after him. And this covenant is concerned about a new messenger coming.
MY REPLY:-  had GOD not told in verse 3:81 “He took the covenant from PROPHETS”…. ha…ha….ha…ha…ha…
Who said to you that after Muhammad no messenger will come???? Pl.see;
[44:5-6] It is a predetermined command from us that we send messengers. This is a mercy from your Lord. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.
[10:47] To each community, a messenger. After their messenger comes, they are judged equitably, without the least injustice.
[3:81] GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures……”
Quote:-So there is no such covenant mentioned in Holy Quran, as no messenger has to come.
MY REPLY:- blind can’t see anything.
Quote: Brother I do not mean so exactly as u mentioned, I mean Allah can do so and as for our covenant is concerned see the following verse:-
(2:84),2:187,5:12,4:54, 5:7,5:14
MY REPLY :- See my above reply in this regard.
Also your referred verse 2:84, 5:12, 5:7 & 5:14 do not say us that God took the covenant separately one by one mentioned in these verse.
The verse 2:187 & 4:54 do not say about any covenant.
Quote: I don’t know what type of quranic verses u want to know that prove ur whims,
MY REPLY:- I didn’t require any quranic verse from you to support my statement, rather I asked for quranic reference from you in support of your own whims, but I again say you could not be able to provide a single one till date.
Quote:- as several times all the members mentioned Quranic verse in the regard of subject,
MY REPLY:- Then why could you not been able to provide a single one in support of your statement? Do you fear???
To be continued……….. |
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sksamsherali
INDIA
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Posted - Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 11:00 AM
Salam,
In continuation of my early reply………..
Quote:- One thing more, I appreciate u type of persons hardworking that u made in this regard to remove sunah & hadith,
MY REPLY :- Qur’an does not say any single word regarding your fabricated sunnah & hadith. Qur’an is the only hadith and Almighty Allah’s sunnah is the only sunnah mentioned in the Qur’an
Quote:- and it seems also that u people first gathered or collected“ all the materials” I mean objections, interpretations, understanding…etc of all type of muslims belonging to Sunahh, hadith..etc AND then u gave GOOD TIME, VERY GOOD TIME, to set up a system WHICH HOW OPPOSE THEIR SYSTEMS, i.e Sunah & Hadith.
MY REPLY :- Qur’an condemns the idolatrous system i.e. your system contained with fabricated sunnah & hadith.
[31:6] Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless Hadith, and thus divert others from the path of GOD without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution.
[4:105] We have sent down to you the scripture, truthfully, in order to judge among the people in accordance with what GOD has shown you. You shall not side with the betrayers.[/red]
So brother Qur'an labelled you as betrayer
Quoter:- In this way u have adopted ur religion “ FIRST AND THEN WENT THROUGH THE QURAN and TURNED ITS (QURAN) FACE TOWARDS TO UR WISHES” to prove that. Is’nt?.
MY REPLY;- We have adopted ONLY QUR’AN AS OUR ONLY RELIGIOUS SOURCE, so our religion is Islam, but You people adopted fabricated hadith, sunnah, ijmaa….., in support of which Qur’an does not say any single word and make your own religion(idol worship). Isn’t it???
Quote:-But u are not completely succeded in ur mission. Because what one wish never be done until Allah wills.
MY REPLY:- You rightly said that we/I can’t guide you because Almighty God says followings;
[2:272] You are not responsible for guiding anyone. GOD is the only one who guides whoever chooses (to be guided).
[10:42] Some of them listen to you, but can you make the deaf hear, even though they cannot understand?
[10:43] Some of them look at you, but can you guide the blind, even though they do not see?
Quote:- I think in this regard if some one has to know about ur whims and to proov them false HE ALSO HAVE TO GIVE A GOOD TIME to it, and should first know all ur whims and interpretations. Then inshallah he will be more able to judge u well.
MY REPLY:- My opinion exists in this forum, which is as clear as day light, any one can see and judge that in the light of Qur’an. But as I told earlier THOSE WHO ARE BLIND LIKE YOU WILL NEVER SEE THAT LIGHT.
Quote:- Sincerely speaking, brother I m not a learned or scholar man, just a student, but I knew this that u are not on the right path, but Allah knows the best that who is on right path.
MY REPLY:- I think you are a man with chicken IQ. In one side you blame me by saying that ‘ I am not on the right path’, but then you opined that ‘Allah knows the best, who is on right path’…..ha…ha….ha….ha….ha…ha…
Bye…………….
Samsher. |
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hkhan
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 3:54 PM
the participants are also requested to try and read to learn the facts this site presents re: Qur'an n sunnah and hadith--knowledge is Treasure after all-- a bit of hard work though but less harder and less time consuming than writing  |
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cares
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 11:45 AM
Sallam all,
Brother samsherali
Sallam all,
brother samsherali,
Quote: Don’t be excited brother. I can also say you as you say that ‘you people made your whim to support your idol Muhammad to make him the last messenger’
Reply: Brother this is not ur first time, that u say so that we people are idol worshiper of Muhammad, I have read many times this in this forum, but I see how u become more exited to listen what I said… brother u cooool down…cool down. Brother.
Quote: I have given you numerous references from the Qur’an in support of my statement that “Whenever God mentions prophethood in the Qur’an, HE mentions scripture and sometimes wisdom” e.g. (3:79, 6:89, 29:27,45:16, 57:26).
Reply: so what brother, Does Allah says so that scripture is stuck only with the Prophets due to prophet hood. This is ur understanding.
In verse 2:13 , Allah does not say so that He gives prophet hood to prophets, see again brother…
The people used to be one community when God sent THE PROPHETS as bearers of good news, as well as warners. HE SENT DOWN WITH THEM THE SCRIPTURE, bearing the truth, to judge among the people in their disputes" 2:213
Here I think Allah made a mistake or forgotten (may allah forgive me) to mention prophet hood with the prophets. Brother even ur said “some times wisdom” is also not mentioned here. Atleast make a little sense brother!
And do not say later that I have not given u proof from the Quran. But I think u will bring an other whim to remove this.
Quote: Where brother??? Where brother, Almighty Allah says that ‘He sends the scriptures to BOTH MESSENGERS AND PROPHETS SEPARATELY”??
smile. At first pl. show me a single reference from the Qur’an wherein Almighty says(as you claimed) that “He sent scriptures to both messengers and prophets separately”. I know you can’t be able. Please go and try…..carry on…….
Reply: see for the prophets mentioned separately here:-
The people used to be one community when God sent THE PROPHETS as bearers of good news, as well as warners. HE SENT DOWN WITH THEM THE SCRIPTURE, bearing the truth, to judge among the people in their disputes" 2:213
And see the following for the MESSENGERS [40:70] ,[35:25],[3:184], [57:25] separately too:-
Then if they reject you (O Muhammad SAW), so were Messengers rejected before you, who came with Al-Baiyinat (clear signs, proofs, evidences) and the Scripture and the Book of Enlightenment. (3:184)
And if they belie you, those before them also belied. Their Messengers came to them with clear signs, and with the Scriptures, and the book giving light. (35:25)
Those who deny the Scripture and that wherewith We send Our messengers. But they will come to know, (40:70)
Indeed We have sent Our Messengers with clear proofs, and revealed with them the Scripture and the Balance (justice) that mankind may keep up justice. (57:25)
Here we saw that Messenger always come with the clear proofs, sign, and with the Scripture.
As these verses already have been quoted and u denied these to say that these are referred to messengers who have been called prophets. Mentioned in the following words from ur side” EVERY PROPHET A MESSENGER. EVERY MESSENGER NOT A PROPHET
The Quranic truth that a prophet delivers a scripture necessitates that every prophet must be a messenger.” this is ur whim.
However I ask u why u r calling a prophet as a messenger too, why? As u mentioned that because prophets have been given “ SCRIPTURES”, therefore prophets are called messengers. Is’nt? Ok.
THAN HOW A MESSENGER CAN BE CALLED A MESSENGER WITHOUT A SCRIPTURE?
Brother If I go with ur definition, then I found the following results, point out me where I am wrong..
1} that there are two types of messengers.
a): those who receive INSPIRATION (not any revelation or scripture) and as they receive only INSPIRATION (which is not a source of guidance), therefore they are said to promote the EXISTING SCRIPTURES being the source of scripture.
b): there are messengers mentioned in the quran who received SCRIPTURES (as mentioned above verses) but actually they are not MESSENGERS they are PROPHETS; and they are said messengers because as they received SCRIPTURE OR MESSAGE. Is’nt? Ok
Now what result I see with above definition from ur side, is that it becomes clear that MESSENGERS DO NOT BRING SCRIPTURES
1: messengers do not receive scriptures but promoted with the existing scriptures of a prophet whom a scripture is given. (they have not their own).
2: where messengers are shown received with the scriptures they are prophets. (They have not given any scripture themselves).
THAN BROTHER HOW DO U CALL “A PROPHET” A “ MESSENGER” WHEN NO MESSENGER RECEIVE ANY SCRIPTURE BUT PROMOTE THE EXISTING SCRIPTURE AND WHICH (scripture) IS ALSO of A PROPHET not his own (messenger)??.
Then ur definition that every prophet is a messenger because he (prophet) receive a SCRIPTURE becomes baseless when no messenger have any SCRIPTURE?
2ndly then HOW DO U CALL “A PROPHET” A MESSENGER because of a scripture and at the same time u do accept A MESSENGER without any scripture. And it is further seen very interesting to know that a prophet can be titled as messenger because of a SCRIPTUER but the title bear (messenger) himself does not have a SCRIPTURE. What a definition!!!!!!!
Is there any body alive in this forum to understand this definition of brother samsherali, is there any one?? |
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cares
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 11:46 AM
Cont…2
Qutoe: Also I never claimed by saying that Qur’an is not the last scripture. Don’t speak lie after lie.
Reply: whre did I say so brother, that u said “ Quran is not the last scripture.” Why u r telling a lie against me.
Quote: Verse 3:81 says that Almighty Allah took the covenant from the PROPHETS. HE did not say here that He took the covenant from the PREVIOUS PROPHETS!!!(if yes, then provide reference)
Reply: if we go through the contex of the verses of this surah from starting to 3:81, we will see that Allah addresses to those people who deny of new coming messenger. Therefore a reminder is reminded to them what Allah took covenant from their own prophets that there will come a new messenger after them (their prophets), then y u (these previous) people are denying of new messenger.
Quote: Whatever may be, for the sake of argument if I accept your whimsical theory, then I can say or it is proved that; In 3:81 “Qur’an (through the mouth of Muhammad) also says that “After the prophets A messenger will come to CONFIRM THE SCRIPTURES” that means he(the incoming) messenger, who will come after the PROPHETS, will only confirm the existing scriptures, not delivered a news scripture. Then why do you not understand this simple clear meaning of the verse concerned???
Reply: I already said that there is no such covenant taken by Muhammad of a new messenger coming.
Quote: Messengers sent to confirm existing scripture:
"Now that a MESSENGER from God has come to them, and even though HE PROVES AND CONFIRMS THEIR OWN SCRIPTURE, some followers of the scripture (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) disregard God's scripture behind their backs, as if they never had any scripture." 2:101
Reply: oh my God!, Who is this messenger? And did he not bring the scripture with him to confirm other scriptures. This is about prophet Muhammad and he also brought a book...very sad!
But this is not ur fault, as do u not see any verse in support of ur whim, so u use the same verse which are spoken for Muhammad. I have no words to reply u this. Where as this clrealy speaking about Muhammad (pbuh) coming and his duty to perform in the regard. Oh brother u r very nice person.!
Excuse me I have not compete with u.
Quote: Messengers sent for teaching and purifying a people:
"Our Lord, and raise among them a messenger to recite to them Your revelations, TEACH THEM THE SCRIPTURE AND WISDOM, AND PURIFY THEM. You are the Almighty, Most Wise." 2:129
Reply: Oh my God, again a verse which is speaking about a messenger who brought a revelation or scripture….brother I think I should remind u the questions, that is “ where it is mentioned that a messenger without a scripture confirms the existing scritptures”. Note “ without a scripture”. y r u trying to confuse me or others. By the way again this is not ur fault, because u can not bring those verse which are speaking a messenger without a scripture.
Quote: Messengers are sent to reveal hidden issues within the scripture:
God reveals the contents of the scripture according to His Infinite Wisdom. Some matters are kept hidden for an appointed time that God has ordained. God reveals some of these matters through messengers that he chooses.
"He is the Knower of the 'ghaib' (unseen); He does not reveal the ghaib to anyone. Only to a messenger that He chooses, does He reveal from the past and the future, specific news. This is to ascertain that they have delivered their Lord's messages. He is fully aware of what they have. He has counted the numbers of all things." 72:26-28
"(Blessings) such as the sending of a messenger from among you to recite our revelations to you, purify you, teach you the scripture and wisdom, and TO TEACH YOU WHAT YOU NEVER KNEW." 2:151
Messengers are sent to reveal issues in the scripture deliberately hidden by the people:
Many who corrupt God's truth to uphold their own idolatry are guilty of deliberately hiding important issues inside the scripture from the people. God sends messengers to expose the idolatry of such people and to reveal these prime issues:
"O people of the scripture, OUR MESSENGER HAS COME TO YOU TO PROCLAIM FOR YOU MANY THINGS YOU HAVE CONCEALED IN THE SCRIPTURE, and to pardon many other transgressions you have committed. A beacon has come to you from God, and a profound scripture." 5:15
Do you see??
Reply: oh my God! Thanx to God that u did not bring a single verse for ur support that messenger who do not bring scriptures promopte the existing scripture, all verses u have mentioned of those messenger who brought scriptures… very sad!. But this is not ur fault, u could not find any single verse. Atleast now agree brother that u have no support to this from Quran.
cont... |
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cares
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 11:47 AM
Cont….3
Quote: I have already replied to your above question through my earlier mail. I already told that you tried to create an illusion between the two English words EXISTINGS & POSSESSION.
Reply: brother I answer u then again u will become angry, that y u use word “ all existing” in place of “possessing”, it is just that u people want to let the people know that Quran itself is mentioned in it but as it is not so, as I mentioned in my previous post. This is just like to kill two birds with one stone. One side u mention a word similar to it, and other side gets ur purpose behind it.
Quote: You think that here existing and possession do not mean the same.
Reply: if it has the same then y r u using “ all existing” plz use possessing .
Quote: You think what Muhammad possessed are only the previous scriptures, not the Qur’an
Reply: Quran was in his possession but not in complete form.
Qute: OR you think Qur’an does not come in the circle of Muhammad’s possession. But this is not true. Here the meaning of All Existing Scriptures and which you(Muhammad) possessed are the same because previous(all existing) scriptures and the present scriptures i.e. Qur’an, both were in possession of Muhammad.
Reply: yes if u consider Muhammad himself in this covenant. But as it is not so. Brother I already told u that to confirm “QURAN” itself is not concerned. But this Quran which is confirming previous scriptures. I quoted verses of Holy Quran in this regard already.
Quote: Qur’an confirms all scriptures before it, but It does not confirm Itself.
Qur’an does not confirm Itself. You can’t give your own charter certificate…ha…ha…ha…
Reply: brother u tell where Quran confirms itself, as confirmation of previous scriptures is so as these are mentioned in the next or last scriptures, and there is no book after the Quran to confirm it, then how Quran is confirms itself OR how a CONFIRMER ITSELF CAN CONFIRM. VERY SIMPLE.
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